Talk:Kwanzaa/Archive 2

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

How anyone can track what's going on on this page is beyond me -- people need to sign their edits/comments with four tildes. Jim62sch 00:34, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents

Corn

This page links to the disambiguation page Corn, but I'm not sure which sense is intended. Can you help me? Thanks. — Pekinensis 19:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I've just clarified link to maize. Peace. deeceevoice 19:50, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Corn has nothing to do with Africa as its origins are South America, so it is very strange that it is one of the symbols.

No, it's not strange. Kwanzaa is an African-American observance -- not an African one. Further, upwards of the 80+ percentile of all African Americans claimed Native American ancestry in the late 1970s. It's not as "strange" as some might think. deeceevoice 21:48, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
How it is 'claim' ? One is born with certain ancestry, that cannot be claimed or changed. Does an 80+ of African American have (partial) Native American ancestry, has it been proven by some genetic research and/or birth records ?

I myself am Cherokee and Cado. Virtually every African American I know has Native American ancestry. What? We gotta prove it to u? Don't hold your breath. *x* deeceevoice 22:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

-- Corn has nothing to do with Africa???? --

You obviously haven't been to Africa. It may have originated in South America, but for decades it has been a dietary staple in much of Africa in much the same way as Potatoes (also South American) are to the Irish and Rice is to Asia. - Cy—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.152.180.64 (talk • contribs) .

Maize was introduced to Africa in the 16th and 17th centuries and was readily accepted by African farmers, partly because it was grown and used in a similar way to their traditional crop of grain sorghum. Maize displaced sorghum as the staple grain in all but the drier regions. [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.152.180.64 (talk • contribs) 05:55, 23 December 2005.

See corn meal, then lets close this maize schism once and for all. / Ezeu 04:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


I believe corn is referred to in the bible as well. but the whole thing about accuracy is laugable since so much in christianity, judaism amd islam is loaded with bad information and myth.

Links to slate.com are racist?

deeceevoice removes links to slate.com discussing kwanzaa, as if it were some kkk offshoot, and even then, a kkk offshoot might still have some facts.

deeceevoice also removes statements that kwanzaa is a race-based holiday. there is little to nothing cultural about kwanzaa. you burn candles, put out some fruit, lay down a mat, etc, none of which have anything to do with african american culture, unless you count the colors on the black nationalist (racist) flag.

You're an idiot. Who gives a @#U* what you think? *x* deeceevoice 21:49, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
What, and candles, fruit, and mats are race related then? Jesus, you're twisted. A ceremony is almost by definition cultural, and I can't see any race relation at all here.

the origins of Kwanzaa

Mine is in fact the correct definition. There is an American oracle bead chronicle which contains memory-perfect images of an ancient African volcanic eruption and the utterance 'Kwanzaa'. The holiday started with the discovery of the tiny archeological artifact -- it hasn't been contained and housed in a museum yet. >beadtot@aol.com

karenga/felon

Its clear that Karenga is a convicted felon (some combination of kidnapping/torture I believe). What some editors are in essence claiming is that this is less important than his current employer. I don't know what grounds there are for that conclusion, but it is not something that is at all obvious. If yall are having a hard time coming up with convincing arguments, thats probably a good indication that this is fair to include.

Discussion won't go far with the behavior of some editors:

You're an idiot. Who gives a @#U* what you think? (deeceevoice) --69.110.47.109 01:49, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

This article is about Kwanzaa. Too much focus on Karenga as it is. There is an article about Karenga already. --Ezeu 02:45, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Agreed -- good edit --69.110.9.207 17:42, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, good job, Ezeu. I don't know why Deeceevoice reverted it. I'd encourage him and others to discuss rather than revert again. Jonathunder 18:44, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

FBI?

What's the story on the assertion that the FBI had a hand in the creation of Kwanzaa? There is a column fairly widespread on the net, popular among mainstream political types and the more extreme self-described white nationalists, that claims this. The column is by a famous muckraking political commentator.

I like Kwanzaa, proof anybody can invent a holiday, even convicted felons.


The FBI targeted members of the US, including Karenga, and infiltrated various black community organizations in Los Angeles in order to foster division between them and the very popular Black Panthers. http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/pacificapanthers.html

Bunchy Carter and John Huggins, leaders of the Southern California BPP are killed in shoot-out with Black nationalist group (US) at UCLA. Shoot-out is the result of a disagreement over appointment of an individual as director of the UCLA Afro-American Studies Center. Ericka Huggins and 12 others arrested and charged with assault with intent to commit murder.A Wall Street Journal article the following month details US leader Ron Karenga's involvement with the FBI.

Cobb 14:03, 27 December 2005 (PDT)

Face it

In an America in dire need of UNIFICATION, where blacks are being thrust back into the ghetto, back into a depraved culture by hip-hop and other cultural poisons, a holiday to separate one race from another is the last thing we want. How do we expect to combat racism when we're drawing such a clear race line?

Worse yet as already stated, the holiday has no relevance to anything. It celebrates the primitive past. If blacks want something culturally relevant to them they have RAMADAN!

++++++++++++++++ absolute rubbish! you got the nerve to talk about cultural poisons when whites parade around with the confederate flag and look the other way when black folks had their votes stolen in florida and complain about a observance that has nothing to do with whites? its not the separation issues, its the fact that whites dont own or control this holiday that burns you up, deal with it.

Face it yourself - this is not a holiday meant todivide people or to draw a race line. Anyone who wants to celebrate the race neutral qualities that Kwanzaa seeks to focus on, is welcome to do so. Besides - don't you yet understand it? We ALL come from Africa anyways, first of all, and Ramadaan is as culturally African as Christianity is, and as Kwanzaa is for rhar matter. THe point is to celebrate, to contemplate, and to act in ways that are positive and have a positive impact on the individual as well as community. - SL--71.250.88.213 04:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Could we have ???

Couldn't we have a picture of a kinara or a kwanzaa celebration so to give people a visual clue? Also could we somehow tie in the colors of the candles with the 7 Principles and give examples as to what it is meant by them, rather than the definitions? The definitions are fine but there's no examples as to what is meant by them.

I know that I am new here but I would like to be able to contribute to the understanding of Kwanzaa and give people a chance to experience the holiday thru the eyes of a celebrant.

Thank you for your attention.--hawk eyes 03:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


Addedum:

Here is an email sent to me by a "young girl from Ghana". Is this legit? Or is someone trying to start something?


From: Adenike Aderinde <nikeaderinde@yahoo.com> Received: from [140.180.130.97] by web30504.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:34:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Subject: Kwanzaa Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:34:12 -0800 (PST) To: hawk.shango@verizon.net X-Originating-IP: [68.142.200.117] Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-352256089-1135384452=:85173" Message-id: <20051224003412.85654.qmail@web30504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=kM1x2kSEK692hklpTWMP8kf5AP4cEQAGI18o7xnmMwSRiMVdXxxFSAMxvI/YiHhkWoXvzrWN+GWEDXfzAklDdJ7/+/tKnsmaMejp3zioYDHWhPBAmOTMVt90mRCZ3XcVf8zd/TuhZwL6tP2yifCRKDeO8vOy3QyGwE7wMcTg7Ag= ;


Hi, I am a young girl from Ghana, and I saw this email address on your website about Kwanzaa. I read through the site, and somehow got the impression that your site was trying to pass Kwanzaa off as a ceremony of considerable significance, not only in the African American community, but also in modern, present day Africa (e.g. the list of countries like Nigeria, Ghana, Tanzania, Kenya, etc). As a well travelled African, I know Kwanzaa is of no significance on the continent, and Africans today (as opposed to African Americans) do not celebrate this "festival", or "holiday". Should the information on your website not reflect the present day reality? I find it offensive, insulting and downright rude to read websites like yours, depicting Kwanzaa as an African holiday. Please take the time to change the incorrect information on your website. Cheers and Happy Holidays, Aderinde.

Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

Now I have nothing against people trying to get some facts straight but this is really nutsy! Could someone please tell me if on my site I am trying to pass off Kwanzaa as an African based holiday? True I do provide a few facts about Africa but that is it. The website is Happy Kwanzaa [2]

Bias

It seems anyone who wants to have anything to do with this article is biased towards one of the extreme POVs. Does anyone know about this subject who isn't biased? -- Boothman 16:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Those who attempt to describe Kwanzaa are overwhelmed by editors who want to push certain points. It is disturbing that even certain admins make unexplained edits. --Ezeu 17:50, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

What is wrong with this? I'd like to remove the whole anecdote.

"Jon Stewart ... gave Bill the Kwanzaa gift of saying that he hated Christmas ". Seems like someone inserted his/her POV into that statement. I doubt that Stewart said "I hereby give you the Kwanzaa gift of Christmas hatred." Silently to myself: what do I know, maybe he did. Never know with them Americans --Ezeu 20:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Remove it, if you wish. I don't get the string of pop culture anecdotal references. They add absolutely nothing to the article and come off as inane. I mean the list could go on and on and on and on and.... Well, you know. deeceevoice 22:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I just removed the whole dumb section. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Censorship of this Page

I defy anyone to tell me why the following facts are continually deleted from this page, with the aid and comfort of the officious moderator:

  1. Kwanzaa is the invetion of a man convicted of a violent felony against two African American women.
  2. Kwanzaa's values are based on the Marxism of that felon.
  3. Kwanzaa is based on African American nationalist separatism.
  4. Kwanzaa is not celebrated by any African culture anywhere.
  5. The majority of the cited references to Kwanzaa in pop culture that have been cited are mocking or ironic.

The continual removal of these facts is a POV violation that the moderator is not willing to police because he has an idealogical axe to grind.

The continual censorship of facts is vandalism, which the moderator tolerates and abets.

This is why this page is about as useful as a Scientology website -- idealogues run wild unpoliced by those in power who sympathize with zealots and idealogues. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.141.170.190 (talk • contribs) 03:40, December 21, 2005 (UTC)

  • Non-repsonsive.
  • You blocked me when all I did was revert to purely factual information in the face of an onslaught of zealot idealogues who censor facts. You are the problem -- don't resort to showing off your specialized wikivocabulary.
    • It doesn't matter at all what the content was when you violated WP:3RR. Anyone would have gotten blocked by any administrator for having made the same reverts you did. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 18:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


Contemporary views of Kwanzaa don't have much to do with Karenga as a person. Although you're right to call it a fact that Karenga's a convicted felon, it simply doesn't have very much to do with Kwanzaa as a modern american celebration. One may just as well deface the Christmas page with details of the Crusades. Like, it's not POV to say "Look at Karenga's page to read any dirt on him" and to leave the Kwanzaa page free from disparaging comments about Karenga, regardless of the truth of those comments. -- दान�यल� 07:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
The idea that you can divorce the creation from the creator is either naive or deceitful. Do you really contend that understanding that Karenga, the creator of Kwanzaa, is an inveterate Marxist does not shed light on the meaning of slogans like "Collective work and responsibility" or "Cooperative economics"? Do you really think there are harvest festivals is Africa where Africans gather as nostalgic family units to raise a glass of cheer to such obvious 20th century Marxist euphemisms? Do you not think that knowing he is a radical black separatist does not shed light on the meaning of the words "self determination"? Do you spend time on the National Socialism entries insisting that the fact that Hitler was involved in Nazism is not relevant? Your analogy to the Crusades would be very apt if there was any evidence at all in the entire universe that the Crusaders were the founders of Christmas. Karenga created Kwanzaa to further his personal idealogical agenda -- pretending that you can hide your eyes like a baby and make him go away is silly and wrong.
Here is what is going on in this entry -- Zealots who want to flog Kwanzaa as a vehicle for multicultural, Black separatist, Marxist political ends want to CENSOR facts about the origins of Kwanzaa.
The Zealots want then, like the Ministry of Truth, to erase any indication of their censorship by eliminating any reference to it on the page.


Oh, please. Grow up, already.

Beyond that, please, all parties, do learn to evaluate and cite your sources before jumping to write articles and enter into these discussions. Much uncessary name calling, flaming, and other annoying, immature, anti- and pseudo-intellecctual drivel, and POV attitude could be quickly dispelled with a firm, yet respectful, unrelenting demand for good documentation to support one's positions.

If you are not familiar with this idea, you might want to review the following sites to learn how to make better decisions about what kinds of sources to cite and how to cite them: CARRDSS : Evaluate your Sources of for a more in depth version try: Critically Analyzing Your Information Sources or Evaluating Web Pages

If you don't evauate your sources, you run the risk of poisoning your own brain with all kinds of crap-ola that passes for Information -- not to mention passing on the disease to the too many readers who, mistakenly, and unfortunately, think Wikipedia is actually a worthwhile source of Information. It's a really cool thing, believe me -- just keep it all in perspective.

For example: On this topic, there are many, many, many much better sources available, that will provide a better overview on this topic. Visit your local library or online library and use some of the real research tools available to you there, to get authoritative information to support your positions.

Here are just a few you will be able to find on this topic, using a source called Ebscohost. (Almost every library has it, or a service like it. Please! Use it!):

  • Kwanzaa: The Making of a Black Nationalist Tradition, 1966--1990. By: Pleck, Elizabeth. Journal of American Ethnic History, Summer2001, Vol. 20 Issue 4, p3, 26p;
  • Kwanzaa. By: McGill, Sara Ann. Kwanzaa, 2005, p1-2, 2p
  • Kwanzaa and the sharing of good in the world: vision, principles and practice. By: Karenga, Maulana. New York Amsterdam News, 12/26/2002, Vol. 93 Issue 52, p13, 1/3p
    • The man who invented Kwanzaa. By: Collier, Aldore. Ebony, Jan1998, Vol. 53 Issue 3, p116, 3p, 3c, 1bw
  • The Nguzo Saba (seven principles). New York Amsterdam News, 12/19/2002, Vol. 93 Issue 51, p10, 1/3p;
  • Celebrating Kwanzaa. New York Amsterdam News, 12/19/2002, Vol. 93 Issue 51, p11, 3p
  • Kwanzaa, peace and justice in the world: Cultivating and harvesting the good. By: Karenga, Maulana. New York Amsterdam News, 12/27/2001, Vol. 92 Issue 52, p12, 2p
  • "Kwanzaa," by A. P. Porter, illustrated by Janice Lee Porter.
  • Opinion: The case for Kwanzaa. By: Williams. New York Amsterdam News, 12/16/99, Vol. 90 Issue 51, p27, 1/3p
  • Kwanzaa: A Celebration With a Difference. By: Johnson, James W.. American Visions, Dec99/Jan2000, Vol. 14 Issue 6, p34, 2p, 4c
  • Kwanzaa: An African American festival. By: Stalcup, Ann. Faces, Dec97, Vol. 14 Issue 4, p40, 4p, 2c
  • Kwanzaa: The emergence of an African-American holiday. By: Flores-Pena, Ysamur; Evanchuk, Robin. Western Folklore, Summer/Fall97, Vol. 56 Issue 3/4, p281, 14p
  • Kwanzaa culture. U.S. News & World Report, 12/30/96, Vol. 121 Issue 26, p17, 1/3p, 2c;
  • The affirming quality of Kwanzaa. By: Nguyen, Lan. Washington Post News Feed, 12/29/96, Vol. 120 Issue 24, pB1, 4bw
  • Why African-Americans continue to resist Kwanzaa. By: Fraley, Stephen. New York Amsterdam News, 12/14/96, Vol. 87 Issue 50, p29
  • The Kwanzaa conundrum. By: French, Mary Ann. Washington Post News Feed, 12/30/95, Vol. 119 Issue 25, pF1, 2bw
  • The advent of Kwanzaa. By: Woodward, Kenneth L.; Johnson, Patrice. Newsweek, 12/11/95, Vol. 126 Issue 24, p88, 2/3p, 1c
  • The Complete Kwanzaa Celebrating Our Cultural Harvest

Copyright 1995 by Dorothy Winbush Riley

Then, there are websites. Please. Stick to sources that have some history of reliability, authority, accuracy, that are current, not biased or commercial. An easy trick? Opt for .org, .edu-s or .gov-s over .coms, blogs, etc. Why? Because .coms are commercial (get it??) organizations whose sole motivating purpose is to make money through advertising and sales, therefore, they may not always be trusted for providing an unvarnished perspective (though some can be exceedingly good, you must always be aware of their motivations); and secondly, blogs and the like are written (as is the Wikipedia, by the way) by mostly a bunch of airbags with lots of opinion, but no research skills, who like to hear themselves talk. Ok, that's harsh. Try again. Blogs are written by individuals whose authority and expertise are rarely known, and difficult to confirm, and therefore, they may or may not have accurate, unbiased, reliable or up to date info to offer. Blogs are for discussiong points of view - rarely should they be counted on for providing the kind of fact based neutral overviews and information expected of an encyclopedia. So,...

PLEASE! Stick to Wikipedia's agenda of providing good resources, well researched and high quality information -- by USING good resources, well researched, and of high quality. Read their page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources

Here are a few great resources, all of which are far more authoritative than the ones cited in this article:

Have your point of view -- that's FINE!! Just PLEASE!! Stop contributing to the dumbing down of America. CITE RELIABLE SOURCES to support your position!!! - The Super Librarian --71.250.88.213 07:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your research and your opinion, though not your tone. At any rate, this should help--Tznkai 16:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
You are welcome. I hope it proves inspirational. I am sorry you didn't like my tone - judging from everything else I've been reading here, I thought I was quite tame. Glad to see the article shaping up, though. Still, POV keeps creeping in...Good luck with it, everyone! - The Super Librarian--71.250.88.213 14:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


its sad this page is being clensed by the politically correct police. wikipedia should be about the truth, not some collection of whitewashed feel good lies. the fact that those censoring this page are so zealous shows they definetly have something to fear, what they support cannot be defended. its founding was corrupted to the core. good intentions are not enough. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.141.97.227 (talk • contribs) 10:46, 30 December 2005.

Who's truth? Yours? No thanks! Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. --Ezeu 12:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

ALWAYS WITH THE RACISM...

whenever the topic is related to black culture. Look, whoever founded Kwanzaa is relevant, just as Columbus is central to Columbus Day, the Pilgrims and Indians to Thanksgiving, Jesus to Christmas, and Washington and Lincoln to President's Day. For people to try to separater Karenga from Kwanzaa is just ridiculous. On the other hand, even a broken clock is right twice a day, so because Karenga is a less than desirable person, doesn't mean the holiday is some gateway to Communism and the end of Western Civilization. If people want to get together for a different holiday and aren't hurting anybody, who are you to imply that they are stupid or fooled?

Totally, my opinion here (and it is allowed as it is in the Talk section) but Kwanzaa is no differenct from festivus. If you want to celebrate it, fine. If you think it is a sham, fine. Just write a neutral article about what it is.

It seems there are two strains here, people who want to proselytize about the greatness of Kwanzaa, and people who want to denigrate it because they believe it is a fraud. Both sides need to grow up and let a neutral article breathe and stop with the constant edits.

There ARE two strains here, but you are mistaken to see them as equivalents. I want to include, in as "neutral" terms as possible the following indisputable, relevant facts: (1) Founder was a Marxist; (2) Founder is a radical African American separatist; (3) Founder is a felon, convicted of a crime of violence against an African American woman; (4) Kwanzaa has no roots in any African custom or practice. I have not spent ANY time deleting the sloganeering of the Kwanzaa promoters, who I think should be free to portray Kwanzaa as a celebration of Pan African harmony/tolerance/socialism/separatism without reference to its origins -- I have NEVER deleted any of that hogwash. The Zealots and Sloganeers, however, spend LOTS of time deleting any reference to clear facts, and also delete the POV warning on the page so that they can deny that there is any disagreement. That is ideaology run wild. So, get your facts right before making your shallow criticism.

Finally, the charges of racism are way out of bounds here. There is enough about Kwanzaa to make anyone skeptical of it regardless of race, as with all celebrations and holidays. Even Christmas is the celebration of a virgin giving birth? Is the atheist that doesn't celebrate Passover or belive the story of Esther (from which Purim evolved), also an anti-Semite? Not believing that Kwanzaa is legit does not make someone a racist. There is a person here who goes into all these discussions and start throwing around the invective and wiki should do something about this user. It is counterproductive to an open discussion of real issues. Ramsquire 19:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

In case you were mistaken, my dad and I were not interested in proving that kwanzaa is a shame, though we think it is, in the encyclopedia entry. We were simply furious that we had been blocked, or censored as I like to call it, from contributing because he didn't like the facts we add. I do agree that perhaps the edits my dad added were a bit heavy-handed, but he is not a very experienced wikipedian. However, Gordon still continues to remove obviously neutral contributions by me however, with no justification except that he interprets it as "vandalism" which it is obviously now. Gordon also continues to evade any sort of confrontation with what I continue to tell him. How are the facts that we are adding vandalism? (He refuses to answer because, in truth, they are not.) Along with, Since the information we added is factual, why should they not be included? He has refused to answer our questions, all he's done so far is refused to answer these question and instead keep whining about the flame email my dad sent him and saying "3 RR's". If Gordon will confront us with a legitimate response, we'll happily back off.
I refuse to get into this petty feud between you and Gordon, but here is my thoughts on your facts:
I love the way you "refuse to get involved" and then proceed to get involved.
Kwanzaa is the invetion of a man convicted of a violent felony against two African American women. (This belongs in Karenga's article. This information does not answer the question of "what is Kwanzaa, which this article seeks to answer. the article can simply state that "Kwanzaa was created by Ron Karenga, a former felon who was once chairman of the black studies department at California State University, Long Beach. He felt that blacks should have their own celebration or holiday")
Oh, I see the fact that Karenga is a "former chairman" of an Afro Studies department merits mention in the article about Kwanzaa, but the fact that he spent years in jail for torturing women does not. Your facts are important because they lend an air of authority to Karenga (to anyone who does not understand the reality of these types of university chairs) but mine does not belong because it exposes him as a criminal.
Kwanzaa's values are based on the Marxism of that felon. (This is fine, as long as it is backed up with additional facts.)
Why does that have to be "backed up with additional facts" -- he is a boldly self proclaimed Marxist.
Kwanzaa is based on African American nationalist separatism. (This is loaded language and is not accurate. It was created by Karenga to give Blacks a holiday of their own. This sentence stretches the logic without supporting facts.)
Wait, you want "additional facts" to support the claim that Kerenga is Marxist even though he acknowledges that. But, you will just nakedly claim that African Nationalism has nothing to do with Kwanzaa? What facts do you have for your claim that Karenga's only motive (the guy is a life long Marxist activisit) was to give African American "a holiday of their own"? How can you possibly know this motive??? It shows your agenda.
Kwanzaa is not celebrated by any African culture anywhere. (Irrelevant. It is celebrated by some in America as it is an American created and based celebration)
The majority of the cited references to Kwanzaa in pop culture that have been cited are mocking or ironic. (Unknown and difficult to prove.)Ramsquire 21:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
In the stereotypical jock smack-talk voice:Come on Gordon, I'm waiting, let's see whatcha got. Hopefully more than that big bag of nothing we've seen so far. --~ Jared ~ 20:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Shrug. Here's what you inserted: Kwanzaa still reamains unknown to most Americans, most pop culture references to kwanzaa tend to either educate the audience about kwanzaa or mock its obscurity and depict it as "inferior" to other holidays. So. Who says Kwanzaa still remains unknown to most Americans? Provide sources for this data, please (else it is original research, whether true or not.) Who says most pop culture references educate or mock and depict it as inferior? Your own observations? Then it's also original research. It's also strongly non-neutral-point-of-view. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Last Paragraph....

I don't think it is necessary. It says that Kwanzaa is growing but only 1.6 percent of the population follows the holiday. That is too miniscule a number to use as any evidence of growth, especially without any comparison figure. Also the last sentence, seems to just be an opinion without any factual support. Suggest revert.Ramsquire 21:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Go right ahead. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 21:50, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
    • I think that the article is much better without that paragraph, and overall it actually looks great to me (if no one starts to change it again...)--Hotchy 07:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Two points. 1. The article is not great, it's a small, sorry excuse for a wikipedia article. It's basically an overgrown stub. Compare to the christmas article, which has 11 sections. The Hannukah one has 12. 2. There is obviously a POV. The article reads like a kwanzaa promotional pamphlet, not like an encyclopedia entry. --~ Jared ~ 15:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

  • I don't think we should compare the Kwanzaa article to the Christmas or Hannukah ones. Kwanzaa has history of about 30 years compared to Christmas's almost 1500 and Hanukah's 2200. that's probably the biggest reason for the disparity. Also, let's not forget that Christmas and Hanukah also tie into religions, whereas Kwanzaa does not.Ramsquire 21:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
  • ... and that most of those who celebrate Kwanzaa also celebrate Christmas – that Kwanzaa is not an either/or and neither/nor celebration. --Ezeu 21:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Hey Jared, it's not good practice to say things like something is "a small, sorry excuse for a wikipedia article". There's an example similar to that on a policy/guideline page explaining how *not* to behave. The article is quite short, and that may make it more POV than it should be. The Christmas article, for example, has no qualms about the history of Christmas (even though many may not like to hear its pagan origins), but it looks like detail on Karenga is not wanted by some editors here. I know the next few sentences might be hard to swallow, but here goes...perhaps in a longer article the Karenga details and criticisms wouldn't be so controversial, when we've only got a few paragraphs mentioning the criminal history of the founder is probably a little too negative. Kwanzaa is a peaceful holiday, after all. To make a contrived and extreme analogy, it would be pretty lame to have a Christmas article that was half a page long but managed to mentioned the Inquisitions. If the article grows in all directions I think the Karenga info becomes more relevant. Of course, it would be unfair to ask *you* to try to do all the expansion legwork, and the editors that you are in conflict with should also strive to expand the article. -Justforasecond 02:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Working on the Article

  • I have been trying to beef up the article and make it into an actual, respectable looking Wikipedia entry on my user page. Most of the work so far has involved maoving the content into appropriate sections and such. I assume that the "Influences" section I have had will be the most controversial. Please visit it here: User:TurtleTurtle/work --~ Jared ~ 15:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Well done TurtleTurtle/Jared. I agree with you that this article is in dire need of expansion. But it is counter-productive to be unmannerly – here and in edit summaries. There is enough combativeness as it is (especially considering the fulltime vandalism/revert war that has characterized the last couple of weeks around here). Lets not pick fights, but do like Coca-Cola and pretend that these are blissfully exultant days where humanhood and the urge to love and respect ones wiki-neighbours reigns supreme. Heri ya Krismasi na Mwaka Mpya. --Ezeu 19:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Christmas Kwanzaa Together Image

Anybody know where to find an image of christmas decorations and kwanzaa decorationss side-by-side like the article describes? That would be a good addition to the article. --~ Jared ~ 16:28, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I still have been unable to find images of Christmas and Kwanzaa side-by-side. Since there is no source, and I have never heard of this phenomenon before, I was wondering if all that stuff is even true. Please add an acceptable source or the information will be duly deleted. --~ Jared ~ 15:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Isn't Karenga the one who wrote that Kwanzaa was put at the end of December in order to show rejection of the dominant culture (read whites and Christianity)? If so, finding a picture of a table with both items would be wonderfully ironic.


This is a no brainer. Most people celebrate Christmas and Kwanzaa together. I can't prove it though, but only 'hard afrocentrics' are likely to eschew Christmas. What I want to inject here is some sense that I don't think that the 'violation of self-determination' is what originally caused the bifurcation, although it's technically correct. The appropriate context is more like the situation of many college-educated atheists who have serious problems with 'religion as the opiate of the masses' combined with an interpretation of Christmas as crassly commercial, and the very ideas of plastic trees, plastic tinsel, electric lights and fake snow. The idea was to balance (and cancel out) that fakeness with something naturalistic; vegetables, candles, straw mats.

It's also true that in the context of black consciousness and black nationalism, the founders had strong opinions against the phlegmatic influence of the black christian church in political matters. So there was some direct opposition to Christmas as a religious holiday. But this was an intellectual opposition. The wording "They felt that doing so would violate the principle of kujichagulia (self-determination) and thus violate the integrity of the holiday, which is partially intended as a reclamation of important African values." Doesn't give an adequate connotation here. --Cobb 12:04, 27 December 2005 (PTD)

Who is Karenga?

  • There is one unlinked mention of Karenga in the article, without any information as to his relevance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cfpresley (talk • contribs) .
  • Nevermind, fixed already Cfpresley 19:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

1.6% statistic -- important info

I've reincorporated the 1.6% statistic. This is an important piece of information about Kwanzaa.

-Justforasecond 20:36, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

My previous objection to the stat was that it contradicted the claims of the previous writer. I think you're use is much more consistent and proper. Good job.Ramsquire 21:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I took away 'Kwanzaa is not widely popular', as it's a meaningless POV remark. On the other hand, it would be useful to include a figure on the proportion of Americans of African ancestry, or the proportion of African-Americans who celebrate Kwanzaa, as it is an almost exclusively African-American holiday. Incompetent 11:01, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I really don't like this poll. It's run by people whose primary purpose in polling was to determine how much money people are spending on various holidays. In short, I don't trust it to be accurate on measuring merely how many people celebrate what holidays. Can we get a better, nonbiased poll, preferably run by some reputable polling company like Gallup? --Cyde Weys votetalk 12:17, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


I'll try to assume good faith on this one. "1.6%" is not "widely popular": am I the only one that thinks this? I'd actually like to get the actual percentage out of the into, either putting it in the footnote or the article itself. I found a few more numbers. I actually like the retail one best as they've got little interest in promoting Kwanzaa. They're just trying to get a starting point for how much Kwanaa pariphenelia should be on the shelves.

This[3] mentiones "20 million" (without a citation). That could be a worldwide number. Still an important number but it becomes sort of invalid to calculate this percentage of the world population.

This[4] (festivals.com) says 13 million, but I can't tell if its U.S. or worldwide. This[5] says festivals.com estimates 10 million and another 8 million in the Europe, the Caribbean, and Africa. 10 mil would be > 3% of the US. I couldn't find this number on the fesivals.com website.

This[6] says "millions" around the world (even 1.6% of the US is millions. It's uncited and the website is "melanet" (presumably a pro-kwanzaa site)

Btw, this[7] has some somewhat interesting things to say about Kwanzaa and religion.

In reading the other sites I'm coming to the conclusion that the Karenga information should be here. It seems pretty sugarcoated that not one of the sites I read said anything other than positive about Karenga. Even the last one neglects to mention his past.

-Justforasecond 16:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

You have a good point. I guess until we find a better source, the current one can stay. The total number of celebrants it relevant enough info that it should be kept even if its source isn't perfect. --Cyde Weys votetalk 16:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


CydeWeys hit it on the head first time around - a magazine that is interested in sales is not an appropriate source to cite in this case - after all, what is their population? Shoppers? And it is *not* acceptable or appropriate to use a stat just for lack of a better one. Better to leave it out. Or, better still, give a range of numbers --"somwhere between 8 and 28 million people...that's some 2 to 10% of the American population, and about 98% of he entire African American population..." (MY stats were made up for the sake of the example - don't atually use them.).

Even the Festival.com stats are better than the one used, because festivals and holidays are their business, so you can be fairly comfortable that they know what they are talking about, and they aren't served by making a mistake in that area - it would cost them if they were wrong. Plus, if you go to the section "About Us" and the copropate headquarters site, you would soon realize they are referring to the US - that's their business base. Even further still, trying "Contact Us" and ask for more details about were they got the stat and what it represents.

Bottom line is that there are many people who celebrate, respect, and/or support the holiday who might rightly fit into this number - but they may not be gift givers or shoppers. Kwanzaa is not all that commercial, so how many people in that population would actually be there for Kwanzaa, anyway? Stick with something more reliable and more relevant, like reports from the government - census reports etc., (although admittedly, the government may have their own agenda, these still represent reputable sources), or almanacs and encyclopedias, or, if anyone can get to their local library, the Statistical Abstrct of the United States may have this info.

Another trick is to go back to that article, and see where they got the stat from, if possible. It might be someting quoted from another source that could be a useful one, then go to that original source itselfm and see what you can find directly from them. They might have something even better and more appropriate to this discussion.

For example, I went to the the InfoPlease Almanac, which states as follows:

"The year 2005 will see the 40th annual Kwanzaa, the African American holiday celebrated from December 26 to January 1. It is estimated that some 18 million African Americans take part in Kwanzaa.

She goes on to address a few other points that are being contested here:

Kwanzaa is not a religious holiday, nor is it meant to replace Christmas. It was created by Dr. Maulana "Ron" Karenga, a professor of Black Studies, in 1966. At this time of great social change for African Americans, Karenga sought to design a celebration that would honor the values of ancient African cultures and inspire African Americans who were working for progress.
Kwanzaa is based on the year-end harvest festivals that have taken place throughout Africa for thousands of years. The name comes from the Swahili phrase "matunda ya kwanza," which means "first fruits of the harvest." Karenga chose a phrase from Swahili because the language is used by various peoples throughout Africa."

I also searched the census, and, ironically, they don't appear to have the stats on Kwanzaa. But there are lots of other pretty useful resources there, such as We the People : Facts on the Black or African American Population, Facts for Features which might be helpful in pulling this and other articles together. Happy Hunting! - Super Librarian--71.250.88.213 17:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Criticism

  • This article should probably contain an "opinions" or "criticisms" section (there seems to be a need for it). That way, the lead info can explain what Kwanzaa is, and the controversies can be dealt with in a specific section. --Ezeu 23:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
See the "deleted bullcrap criticisms" section above. You could probably find the old critiques there, but it looks like there needs to be some discussion on the topic. Some editors find it POV to include the criticisms at all, which makes *some* sense. Every article could have a criticisms section -- after all, cars use too much gas, buses are smelly, helicopters are noisy and crash too often, bikes are slow and you get wet riding one, horses poop and are expensive, running shoes don't look great around the office, etc, but you don't see criticisms on the running shoes page. I think criticism of Kwanzaa is spread wide enough that the section is warranted, but I understand why others might not think so. -Justforasecond 01:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
  • No, helicopters dont crash often enough !! I mean helicopters shouldnt .. whatever – anyway, editors at "Kwanzaa" couldnt be less prone to reach a consensus than those at "Jesus", "Kerry" or "Palestine".--Ezeu 02:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The word you're looking for is notablilty: Is the critism notable, frequent, etc?--Tznkai 17:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

http://www.courttv.com/trials/soliah/slahistory_ctv.html Many believe the seven principles of Kwanzaa were based on the seven principles of the Symbionese Liberation Army, another California militant seperatist group since the principles of both groups are identical.

History!

Can someone give me a timeline on the creation of Kwanzaa?

In refrece to the above nattering on Felonosity, Karenga was evidently not marxist, secular humanist, or a convincted felon at the time of its creation.--Tznkai 16:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

  • It's a bit puzzling. The Web is full of references (particularly on sites attacking Kwanzaa) to Kwanzaa having been invented in 1966 by Karenga. But that makes little sense if the paragraph in Ron Karenga is correct: ...in 1977, he formulated a set of principles called Kawaida, a Swahili term for tradition and reason. Kwanzaa is an adjunct of Kawaida. Karenga called on African-Americans to adopt his secular humanism and reject other practices as mythical (Karenga 1977, pp. 14, 23, 24, 27, 44-5). --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm going with the 1966 date and flagging this article unverified until we track this down.--Tznkai 17:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Authentic or contrived?

I'm not editing the page but came here to look for answers to these questions:

  • Does the specific celebration of Kwanzaa, as opposed to the themes suggested by its observance, have any authentic African roots?
  • What groups or corporations are promoting its recognition with producing objects or media for its celebration, or holding public events related to its celebration?
  • How many people are estimated to privately observe Kwanzaa?

I'm suggesting that providing answers to these questions might be more useful than disputing its origins. patsw 17:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reference desk if you're asking for answers, thanks for the suggestions (I think) if you're not.--Tznkai 17:04, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
For people who might be interested in researching the answers to the questions I posed above: The first New York Times reference is Ron Karenga as Ron "Karenga" Everett on March 20, 1966. Under the name Kwanza, it appears in the publication on December 24, 1971. The first reference to Kwanzaa (with this precise spelling) is December 16, 1982. It's possible that Kwanzaa does have an origin in 1966, but the reference in the New York Times points to an origin (or at least its dispersion to New York) as many as 4 or 5 years later. patsw 18:21, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I am certain that Kwanzaa began in 1967 in Los Angeles. One of the very first Karamus, if not the first, was held at my parents house near Crenshaw and Jefferson Boulevards. We were in the process of converting our two car garage into a theatre stage 'The Redwood Theatre'. I was six years old and got in trouble for putting milk, not water, into the libation cup. I can't say with any certainty when Kwanzaa spread to other communities, but there was national coverage of US and the Young Simbas, of which I was a member. Both Look and Life magazines had a picture of the Young Simbas on their covers. I found a copy of Look at the Afro-American Museum in Exposition Park in LA sometime in the late 80s. A scan of an original photograph for Look can be found here: http://www.mdcbowen.org/cobb/archives/simbas.jpg

  • Good data! Not enough to use a source for a date, unfortunately -- personal memories are basically original research -- actually having those magazines would be helpful! --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 21:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

In need of verification:

The following needs verification

  • Kwanzaa's start date. This shouldn't be that hard to find.
"Official" version found here http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/origins1.html Tznkai 17:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Ha, that site has a funny bit of revisionism. It mentions "The Organization Us" but doesn't say that US is actually an acronyn for "united slaves".

Can we just say that Kwanzaa was created in 1966, but didn't get mainstream recognition until around 1980? -Justforasecond 18:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

for which part? The US Organization is on Karenga's page, the officialkwanaawebsite seems to be a source for the beginnings, the NY Times is mainstream recognition. I hadn't heard of it til '90 or so, it certainly wasn't big time through the 80s. -Justforasecond 18:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Its origin and development is somewhat confusing given the Everett/Karenga and Kwanza/Kwanzaa name changes in the historical record, but the December 24,1971 New York Times account, Spirit of [sic] Kwanza, which I've read on their historical database contains the elements of the celebration which define it today. That places the origin in 1971 or earlier. patsw 18:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I stand corrected -- if it was in the NY Times in 1971 its probably good enough just to mention the 66 creation date. -Justforasecond 21:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
One down, now for the marxist stuff. And for the claims that kwanzaa is a branch of african hertiage. I don't eactly see an unbroken line here. We need to work on some organizational issues. Briefly:
  1. History of Kwanzaa
  2. Celebration of Kwanzaa
  3. Observance of Kwanzaa
  4. Public reaction to Kwanzaa
  5. Kwanzaa and Kalinda (if someone is (trying to) using Kwanzaa as an expansion of ideolagy, its notable

Anyone else have suggestions?--Tznkai 22:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry About the Copy Vio

Yeah, I guess that was dumb of me. I was just trying to improve the page, I do think we need more images. Getting images isn't exactly my specialy though. It'd be nice for someone else to figure something out, but I don't really feel like I should be asking people that. If anyone editins actually celebrates kwanzaa it would be pretty cool to take a picture of a display of yours and upload it. I'm sure other people can come up with better ideas. The article certainly is coming along well now and I'm becoming happier with it, as I'm sure everyone else involved is. --~ Jared ~ 00:36, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Date miss-match

Was Kwanzaa invented in 1975 or 1966? The article seems to be ambiguous. -- BAxelrod 22:35, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Look up above here. The later date appears incorrect, since Kwanzaa is cited in the NYT in 1971. This would put the invention of Kwanzaa before Karenga's criminal activities. However, there seems to be a dedicated attempt here to copy the wrong information in Ron Karenga in this article, despite the discussion on this talk page. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:57, 24 December 2005 (UTC)