Talk:Kurta

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I thought I knew the difference between a kameez and a kurta, but now I'm not sure at all. The websites advertising Indian clothing USUALLY call a top for women a kameez, and a top for men a kurta, but there are also a number of sites that use kurta for women's clothing (neologisms like "shorty kurta" abound). Info from a native informant would be useful. Zora 18:58, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am not a native informant but i've read on one of the websites that the difference between them is that the kurta is looser while the kameez is more fitted. That's not too much but maybe helped a bit:) Nóra 22:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think Nora is right. For women, a kameez is more form-fitted, often tailored, with its cloth/color etc. chosen to match the salwar or churidar; a kurta is looser, doesn't always reach down to the knees, and often made of different material (muslin, hand-loom fabric). For men, a kameez is more like a long western style shirt with (sleeve) cuffs and curved bottom (usually half-open in the front, i.e the buttons go down half way), and the material used is more likely to be cotton, often matching the shalwar; a kurta doesn't have cuffs, the bottom is cut straight (horizontal), and materials used are more likely to be muslin, silk, hand-loom fabric. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Photographs 2 Term 'Punjabi' 3 Recent Revert 4 Questions

[edit] Photographs

I have included a number of photographs of kurtas, both modern and historical. The modern photographs have close ups of different styles (and buttons). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Term 'Punjabi'

Doesn't the term 'Punjabi' refer to Kurta's as well? Wiki-uk 17:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think in Bengali (especially in Bangladesh/East Bengal) it is the same thing as a Kurta. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Revert

Dear Fowler&fowler, I recently noted that you reverted my placement of the Hindi script at the top of the article giving "The word was borrowed into English from Urdu and in turn from Persian; Hindi doesn't belong here either." as your edit summary. Please look at the etymology of the word in Merriam-Wester's dictionary: Merriam-Webster: Definition of Kurta. The etymology entry on this reference states the following:

“

Main Entry: kur·ta Pronunciation: 'k&r-t&, 'kur-tä Function: noun Etymology: Hindi & Urdu kurtA, from Persian kurta a long loose-fitting collarless shirt of a style originating in India

”

The etymology of this word is similar to that of Pajama. For these reasons, I am restoring the removed script and reference. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 18:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of the Webster's entry, but Websters is not a definitive source for words in English of South Asian orgin. "Kurta" is orginally Muslim attire. Here is Britannica:

“

Hindu men frequently wear short coats (angarkha), and the women wear a long scarf, or robe (sari), whereas typical Muslim attire for men and women is a long white cotton shirt (kurtah) and trousers (pa'ijamah). Muslim women also wear a veil called the burqah, which not only hides the face but also envelops the entire body. Traditional Sikh (a religion combining Hindu and Muslim elements) dress is an ordinary kurtah and cotton trousers, covered by a long hanging coat (choghah).

”

And here is Encarta:

“

Kurta: South Asian garment: a long loose collarless shirt worn by some men and women in or from South Asia. [Early 20th century. < Urdu, Persian kurtah]

”

"Kurta" is a little different from "pajama," because it came into English much later, in the early 20th century, by which time Hindi and Urdu had split into distinct languages, unlike "pajama" which was incorporated into English from Hindustani in the early 19th century. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:20, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your research. Even if the Kurta is originally Muslim attire, it is worn by Indians of all religions and is considered to be a part of the Hindi vocabulary (please see [1][2][3]) Regardless of when Hindi and Urdu became standard registers, Persian loanwords are still a significant part of Hindi vocabulary. Also, standardization did not occur until after the partition. Not only Merriam-Webster's but Random House Unabridged Dictionary states that the origin of the word is Hindi:

“

kur·ta /ˈkɜrtə/ –noun 1. a long-sleeved, hip-length shirt worn by men in India. 2. a sleeveless shirt worn over or under the angiya by Muslim women in India. Also, khurta. [Origin: 1910–15; < Hindi].

”

Thus far, two sources state that the origin of the word comes from Hindi. My additions meet Wikipedia:Verifiability. From my understanding, there is no Wiki policy that prefers OED over Merriam-Websters. In my opinion, a compromise between us would be to place Hindi after Urdu in the article. I hope this helps. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 04:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

"Kurta" is also a word in Bengali and Punjabi, with a longer history there, in fact, than it has in Hindi proper. So, why not include those scripts as well. It is enough to include only the script from the original language (in this case Persian/Urdu). Sorry, I don't see a place for devanagari, unless one also includes Bengali, Punjabi, Gujarati etc. I am happy to remove Urdu from the lead sentence and you can put Urdu/Hindi in the etymology section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I can do that if you would like. However, I don't think that you understand that the sources I presented to you state Hindi as the language Kurta was derived from. I really don't see the problem with including all three languages in the lead, even other scripts, if they can be buttressed by sources as a major word in the langage. If you still object to the scripts in the lead, I can move them to the etymology section. Please let me know. Thanks once again, Anupam^Talk 05:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I am in a hurry right now, but neither Websters nor Random House (as a dictionary of American English) is a definitive source for South-Asian-languages words in English. To give a quick example, your Random House reference says that the word was incorporated into English during 1910-1915; yet, here is a quote from the article, "Hindu Pregnancy Observances in the Punjab", H. A. Rose, The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 35. (Jul. - Dec., 1905), pp. 271-278:

“

After birth a child of either sex is bathed in the blood of a he-goat and a necklet of its flesh is put round the child's neck. Then it is dressed in a blue kurta and cap, with a belt of blue silk around its waist. These clothes are worn for six or seven months, but the necklet is retained for two years and the belt worn till it reaches the age of five.

”

It is not clear how Random House made that determination. There are other examples from the 19th century, which I will provide later. The word Kurta (Coortah, Khurta, Coortee, Kurtah) is a loan-word from Persian via Hindustani (which in the late 19th century was the same as Urdu or Ordoo) and different from Hindi or Hindee. More later. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:24, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've reverted to your last version. The earliest reference I have is from 1858, Cave Brown's The Punjab and Delhi in 1857 in which British soldiers are referred to as "Lal Coortee Wallahs" (or "Red Shirts"). This was before they started wearing Khaki. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for research and understanding. Per your research and my references, we've decided to keep Hindi, albeit in different order. Thanks for your understanding and willingness to compromise. With regards, Anupam^Talk 19:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

First of all why does almost everyone on the page wearing a kurta look white. Its that Persian boy? Second of all are you a white guy that thinks he knows everything about India? Third of all the picture you removed was a picture of me, taken by my camera from a March Masti festival, so why did you delete it? Perhaps you could give it a little make over with more modern Kurtas, like ones worn in Bollywood films or festivals, instead of just temples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thai guy 01 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

If the model is indeed a "Persian boy," as you conjecture, then it is historically meaningful, since the Kurta (both the garment and the word) originated in Persia. I have answered your question about the image on your talk page. It doesn't have meta data and is too low-res. Wikipedia is different from flicker.com we can't put our images there simply because we want to. The images need to be "encyclopedic;" in other words they need to illustrate clearly and informatively what is in the text. Your image, unfortunately, doesn't do that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)