Talk:Kurt Vonnegut

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[edit] One of Seven American Survivors?

In the entry, it says he was one of only seven or eight American survivors of the Dresden bombings, but I haven't found this in any sources. In Slaughterhouse-Five (which is I know is not non-fiction, but is still autobiographical), he says he and a hundred American soldiers survived the bombings. - Jeremy Peter Green 23:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

In Fates Worse Than Death he mentions (several times) the EXACT people he was with in the slaughterhouse while Dresden was bombed. The total was 5-8, I forget the exact number (I can look it up later). The Rypcord. 13:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Characters named after real scientists

Vonnegut characters are in general named after real scientists who contributed to sciences like atmospheric science, rockets or space travel. See external link http://groups.google.com/group/alt.books.kurt-vonnegut/browse_thread/thread/25bfa6bbace249e7/e1e07e1494ce93ad?lnk=st&q=the+vonnegut+file&rnum=1&hl=en#e1e07e1494ce93ad. Or just go to google groups and search for "The Vonnegut File"

I would like to frivolously add that one of the scientists is George Springer, used in the short story about a band leader. In real life, Springer was the author of a very good book on Riemann Integrals. Most card catalogs do not include this book, but instead they list George H Springer, author of a book on care and maintenance of band instruments.

If you are an NFL football fan, former Browns quarterback Frank Ryan wrote his PhD thesis on this subject - elliptical Riemann Integrals of the second and third kind. Frizb 18:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recurring themes?

It might be wise to list several recurring themes in his books -- most importantly, the recounting of his son's death through decapitation in Sweden after desertion from Vietnam.

[edit] Kundera

I mentioned this at Milan Kundera's page, but I do hope that there can be work done on the two articles to show some kind of comparison in themes and style. I won't be working on this for a few weeks, but perhaps someday I'll get back to it. Tdfriese 06:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] reason for change

If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph: THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD WAS MUSIC

"Vonnegut's Blues For America" Sunday Herald (7 January 2006)

[edit] Response concerning Vonnegut's atheism

Using this source to conclude that Vonnegut sincerely believed in a God, and was therefore not an atheist is, I believe, based on an an overly literal and naive interpretation of the Blues for America essay, and illustrative of one of the pitfalls of interpreting primary sources without examining the context provided by other sources. Vonnegut's self-identification as an atheist, humanist and freethinker is substantiated by many quotes and secondary sources throughout his career, and this single figurative paragraph from an essay is hardly indicitive of some sort of dramatic turnaround and embracement of theism. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

From the context of this essay alone, it's clear that Vonnegut is not presenting a serious proof of the existence of God, but is making a comment about how much he appreciates music. The paragraphs immediately preceding and following the imaginary epitaph show that the greatness of music is his topic. The epitaph is a literary device used to express his point about music, not a sincere profession of belief in God. Later in this same essay Vonnegut says "And by the grace of God, or whatever, I am not an alcoholic..." The flippant addition of the or whatever shows that Vonnegut speaks of "God" figuratively, but does not commit himself to genuine belief in God.

Vonnegut was a Unitarian (or more specifically, a Unitarian Universalist, or UU). [8] Anyone familiar with UUs will know that many of them are accustomed to using theistic language symbolically, without themselves being theists. In such cases, the word "God" is taken not to represent a supernatural being as it is in theistic worldviews, but some abstraction, such as supreme goodness, or harmony with nature or humanity, love, or any number of other ideals. As a member of several UU congregations, I have witnessed many members who identified themselves as atheists who nevertheless spoke of "growing into harmony with the Divine," or who wholeheartedly sang songs about God. Speaking of "God," yet being nontheistic in outlook, is a common phenomenon among UUs, and one must be very cautious about assuming what a UU believes based on the theistic language they might use.

Vonnegut has a long history of using theistic language, even as he identified himself as an atheist, humanist or freethinker. Take this excerpt from a commencement speech, for example: "You have just heard an atheist thank God not once, but twice. And listen to this: God bless the class of 1974." [9] Clearly, Vonnegut was prone to speaking of God as if he actually believed in him, even though he identified himself as an atheist.

The phrase "[i]f I should ever die, God forbid" in the Blues for America essay is a word-for-word recycling of a phrase he used in an address to members of the American Humanist Association for a memorial service for fellow humanist Isaac Asimov--an address of which he spoke in his latest book, A Man Without a Country:

“We had a memorial service for Isaac a few years back, and I spoke and said at one point, ‘Isaac is up in heaven now.’ It was the funniest thing I could have said to an audience of humanists. I rolled them in the aisles. It was several minutes before order could be restored. And if I should ever die, God forbid, I hope you will say, ‘Kurt is up in heaven now.’ That’s my favorite joke.” [10]

Why was this statement of Vonnegut's so funny to himself and his audience? It is because, as humanists, they do not believe in an afterlife, or in a God who sends people to heaven. When Vonnegut speaks of heaven or God, he does so with a wink. He speaks of God figuratively, ironically, or for humorous effect.

Here's another example, spoken by Vonnegut during an appearance on The Daily Show in support of his book A Man Without a Country (the same book from which the Blues for America essay was excerpted):

"I do feel that evolution is being controlled by some sort of divine engineer. I can't help thinking that. And this engineer knows exactly what he or she is doing and why, and where evolution is headed. That's why we've got giraffes and hippopotami and the clap." [11]

That last example of divine engineering ("the clap") shows that Vonnegut's "endorsement" for intelligent design is only tongue-in-cheek. Vonnegut does not really believe there is some sort of intelligent, benevolent Creator guiding evolution, and his humorous mention of this noxious organism shows it.

Finally, there is the matter of Vonnegut's organizational affiliations, which belies the allegations about his latter-day conversion to God-belief. Until his death, Vonnegut was the honorary president of the American Humanist Association (AHA), an organization that promotes a naturalistic and nontheistic lifestance (humanism), and whose members consider themselves atheists or agnostics. [12] He was also a member of the Council for Secular Humanism's International Academy of Humanism, which promotes the same naturalistic, nontheistic lifestance as AHA. [13] If Vonnegut had really renounced his atheism and become a God-believer, he most probably would have ended his affiliation with these organizations. His continued membership and prominent roles in these organizations is a strong testament to his continued atheism. Nick Graves 21:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

"overly literal and naive interpretation"

real civil. and people wonder why I don't like using discussion.Foxsux 21:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, hello Foxsux. Welcome to the talk page. Now, let's try to have a rational discussion here. You seem offended by the reply above. Perhaps it wasn't the best phrasing. It wasn't mine, but However, nothing you have said here responds to the substance of the reply above, but I apologize for any percieved nor any of the other citations. In dealing with Vonnegut, it has to be remembered that he was a humorist and a satirist, and that we must bear in mind the context in which his writings and statements have been made. It is for this reason that we look at all of the things that he said, and why the numerous citations and Vonnegut's actions, such as being President of the AHA, are important in evaluating his beliefs. Additionally, it should be noted that Vonnegut said lots and lots of things, and not everything that he said is notable, even if verifiable. Edhubbard 21:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Nick's "incivility" (really, was it that big of a deal?) is hardly reason to ignore the importance of the talk page, whether you like it or not. Discussion is absolutely essential to Wikipedia, and your continued reversions without discussion are counter-productive. If you are so intent on convincing us that Vonnegut was a deist, then please take Ed's advice and prove it using rational discussion. Nufy8 02:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Just thought I would point this out: At the end of Palm Sunday Vonnegut himself states that he is an Agnostic believer of God. The Rypcord. 16:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The excerpt I read shows that he called himself a "Christ-worshipping agnostic," which is perfectly consistent with the comments I made above. He did not say that Christ was God, though he is clearly (as evidenced by this sermon and in many other writings/speeches) an ardent Christ admirer. Also agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive, just as agnosticism and theism can overlap. By the way, I notice that the section of this article concerning Vonnegut's views on religion is very short, and actually much less informative than even this talk page. It ought to be expanded, and I intend to do my part soon. Nick Graves (talk) 17:29, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Writing career

The writing career section says that ice nine is a recurring idea. Where does it appear besides in Cat's Cradle? Also the analysis of what ice nine represents is unsourced original research. Ashmoo 13:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influenced - Douglas Adams

I removed Douglas Adams from the influenced list, because I see no way that he could be, and there is no citation. 1) Douglas Adams was nearly the same exact age as Vonnegut and much of his work was published around the same time, 2) Douglas Adams' humor was Brittish, where as Vonnegut's is American. Adams used humor in an uplifting funny way, where as Vonnegut's humor was bleak, black comedy, and was quite different from Adams.

The only reason I see that Adams was listed as being influenced by Vonnegut was because 1) They both employed humor, 2) Adams is a science-fiction writer and much of Vonnegut's work had a Sci-Fi lean/bent towards it.

Thus why I removed Adams from being influenced by Vonnegut. The Rypcord. 16:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Your point two is wildly off the mark. Vonnegut was born in 1922, Adams in 1952. Vonnegut's first novel was in 1952 (the same year Adams was born) and two of Vonnegut's best known novels were published in 1963 and 1969. Adams' first novel was published in 1979. These are things that are easily verified in their respective articles. So, there is no logical reason that Vonnegut could not have influenced Adams.
Furthermore, there are possible references to the connection between Adams and Vonnegut: I've pulled the following up in literally 30 seconds.
So who did he read with relish, in these formative, creative years? And what made an author special for him? He could almost have been describing his own work as he paid his spontaneous tribute to the effortless, fertile genius of Kurt Vonnegut.
"Tom Stoppard. Otherwise, Tolstoy I love. Solzhenitsyn. Kurt Vonnegut, who I think is absolutely superb. I've read The Sirens of Titan six times now, and it gets better every time. He is an influence, I must own up. Sirens of Titan is just one of those books – you read it through the first time and you think it's very loosely, casually written. You think the fact that everything suddenly makes such good sense at the end is almost accidental. And then you read it a few more times, simultaneously finding out more about writing yourself, and you realise what an absolute tour de force it was, making something as beautifully honed as that appear so casual."
[14]. This appears to be a reliable source in that it is a direct quote from an interview with Adams. Based on this, I have reinstated that Vonnegut influenced Adams (I don't think it gets any clearer than "He is an influence") along with this reference. Edhubbard 21:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
ps: They were also both avowed atheists. Edhubbard 21:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)



Edhubbard 21:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

There's a bit of vandalism on this page, please revert —Preceding unsigned comment added by TehNomad (talk • contribs) 23:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is overly long and poorly organized

Much of the writing on this page consists of very subjective critiques and summaries. Some of these are general and some very specific, but most are perhaps out-of-bounds in terms of what goes into an encyclopedia. Some exposition and examination of Vonnegut's life and work is appropriate, but currently there is no sense of organization or authority. Would someone with more experience and a better knowledge of Vonnegut than I please bring this issue to her attention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.130.29.0 (talk) 18:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slaughterhouse-Five (book) Cameo

Doesn't Billy Pilgrim meet Vonnegut in the Slaughterhouse-Five book or something? If so, can we add it to the cameo section? Sorry if the request has been raised before. Ryan4314 (talk) 00:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Posthumous Collection

Should we add mention of the collection of Vonnegut's works, Armageddon in Retrospect, that is due out April 1 (without any trace of irony for the date choice)? [15] Of course, it should go on the complete list of his works, but should it also be added here? I don't know much about it yet, except that it exists. Edhubbard (talk) 18:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2BRO2B

There is a mistake in "It will be a collection of short stories never before published, including 2BRO2B, and many more." 2BRO2B was published in The Wizards of Odd in 1996. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LenkaSt (talk • contribs) 10:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Move Proposal

Mr. Vonnegut's name is given as "Kurt Vonnegut, Jr." at the head of this article. I propose that this article be moved to Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. Any objections?

Webbbbbbber (talk) 21:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I object. Kurt Vonnegut, Sr. is not notable by Wikipedia standards, and does not have his own article. Hence, there is no need to disambiguate between Vonnegut and his father. Vonnegut dropped the "Jr." from his name after his father died, and that is the name used on most, if not all, of his publications. Nick Graves (talk) 00:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Too many links to articles

Is it just me, or does this article have too many links to other wikipedia articles? I removed the one to cockroaches, but there are many many more to things that have nothing to do with Kurt Vonnegut. I think that goes against wikipedia's standards. If the readers do not know what cockroaches are, they can find the article themselves later. There are more, linking to suicide, pneumonia, biochemistry, frostbite, public relations, divorce, cancer, psychotic, saint, traumatic, brain injuries, time travel, molecules, melting point, Playboy, excerpt, posthumously, 2004, chimpanzees, race, short story, the Grand Canyon, cameo, rumor, and commencement speech. Not one of these has anything important about Kurt Vonnegut. I vote we delete all these links to articles. ForgetfulDoryFish (talk) 10:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pop Culture?

What exactly is the notability limit for pop culture references? There are some listed that I don't see as needing to be there. What if we were to remove items such as those and then simply place them in their respective articles instead? -- Qaddosh|talk|contribs 05:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)