Talk:Kurama (YuYu Hakusho)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I'm going to request that this page be moved to Yoko Kurama. Not only do I want this for consistency with the other YuYu Hakusho characters, Yusuke Urameshi, Keiko Yukimura, Kazuma Kuwabara, and Jaganshi Hiei, but because Yoko Kurama is his complete name in the series; it is also given at the YuYu Hakusho website. I'm going to warrant a quick poll to get this done with. Lord Sesshomaru 20:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Add * Support or * Oppose on a new line followed by your explanation, then sign your post with ~~~~.

• Support by my vote, Yoko Kurama is his official name. Lord Sesshomaru 20:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I am familiar with this series - "Yoko" means "Demon Fox," and it usually refers to a specific form of Kurama. In this usage it is a title, not a name. WhisperToMe 22:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support per nom. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 21:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC) - Changed
• Oppose - "Yoko" or "Demon Fox" is a title, not a name. It refers to a specific form of "Kurama," not "all" of Kurama. Likewise, the "Jaganshi" or "of the evil eye" for Hiei is also a title, not a name. With Yusuke, Keiko, and Kuwabara, those are their full names. WhisperToMe 22:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support per nominator. ···巌流^{? · talk to ganryuu} 22:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support per nom. If that's the title that the licensor gives to him, then that is the title he should be given here. Jezebel Parks 22:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - there is no "the" in licensor. FUNImation is one licensor. Remember that VIZ Media licensed the manga and translates "Jaganshi" as "of the Evil Eye" - Also, you need to consider U. S. Manga Corps' version. Using "Jaganshi Hiei" may put favoritism for one version. By the way, Hiei is only rarely referred to as "Jaganshi Hiei" - check Google hit stats. His name is Hiei. I tore the nominator's argument to shreds. Also, while FUNimation uses "Yusuke Urameshi" on the character page, all other characters are called by one name on that page. I see Hiei's entry mentioning the "Jagan," but I have yet to find "Jaganshi." WhisperToMe 23:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose per reasoning by Whisper. We generally don't include titles (other than for royalty) in the titles of articles. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

COMMENT: Moving "Kurama," to "Demon Fox Kurama" would be incorrect in the context of Yu Yu Hakusho:

• Kurama - Refers to both the normal Shuichi Minamino form and the super powered demon fox form
• Yoko Kurama - Refers only to the original form of Kurama - You do NOT use "Yoko Kurama" to refer to the regular form. Read FUNimation's site, and you will see that "Yoko Kurama" is a transformation of Kurama. WhisperToMe 23:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: Look at Kurama's profile- his spirit skills include ([1]): "Yoko Kurama - Fifteen years before the Dark Tournament, the spirit fox Yoko Kurama was thought to have been killed while escaping from a botched burglary. In desperation he hid himself in the world of the living, using a human body to slowly recover his energy. Kurama reverted to his true form after Ura Urashima unleashed the power of the Idunn Box. "

In other words, "Yoko Kurama" specifically refers to Kurama's true form. FUNi simply screwed up while making that poll. Naming Kurama "Yoko Kurama" would be like calling Son Goku "Super Saiyan Goku." WhisperToMe 23:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose as per WhisperToMe's argument. "Yōko" is a title, not a first or last name. I don't see why it should be used just because ONE licensor said so; we have to use our common sense. -- SilentAria ^talk 00:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
  • And to add to that, I watched the English anime and never saw it in that way. Whoever made the polls screwed up. WhisperToMe 01:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose: My main reason for this vote is that Kurama is the most common name used for this character rather than the names of Shuichi Minamino and Fox Demon Kurama/Yoko Kurama. -Adv193 05:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• New Idea --- I've never seen this in a Wikipedia article name, but how about the hyphenated title, "Yoko Kurama/Suichi Minimino"; I can't sight this or anything, but Kurama once said that "[he] is both Yoko Kurama and Suichi Minimino simultaneously" or something to that extent (if you really want to look it up, it's in his first few episodes and wherever that is in the manga) --- so, he is really two people (mentally [maybe a fusion or something]), so I think both names are necessary. But I do understand the "Support" side in respect that I don't think you can divide "Yoko" from "Kurama", because, as a demon, his full name was Yoko Kurama. When reborn, his "new" name was Suichi Minimino --- so he has just those two names. But, on the whole issue on whether or not "Yoko" was a title, I don't think that was ever mentioned; he was just called "Yoko Kurama", but no further details remain. -Pitman6787 6:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
  • As we've said above, "Yōko Kurama" isn't a "full name" per se, since "Yōko" is not a last name, but rather a title. And no offense meant here, but I think it might be more confusing to use your suggestion, as he's commonly referred to as plain "Kurama" throughout the series. -- SilentAria ^talk 01:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Oppose. This is the AMERICAN (and possibly British) part of Wikipedia, and we should generally go by the American names for characters for that usage. For America, and this goes for Hiei too, the average American fan has no idea what "Yoko" or "Jaganshi" means, and they always refer to those two as either Hiei or Kurama. In the manga, Yoko is only used once, in volume 3 (and that simply refered to every fox demon rather than specifially Kurama), the video games don't count as canon, and I'm not sure about the anime. As repeated, we should generally use the names most people in America are used to, and that is Hiei and Kurama. Just wanting to rename an article just so it coensides with the other article names counts under WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, which isn't a verifiable reason. (Once again, that went for Hiei too) Also, don't count Hiei, I'm not sure why his article was moved/rennamed, but it was probably for this very same reason. And generally, whatever the author calls him in the Japanese version should have no effect on the American version, as both Hiei and Kurama are simply called Hiei and Kurama in America, and that is what they should be called on the English-language section of Wikipedia. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - This seems to be about wrapped up, but in case I'll weigh in. Youko Kurama is in the anime (not sure about manga) specifically in reference to Kurama's original form. This is seen as a different personality (similar to Piccolo Daimaou as opposed to Piccolo Ma Junior in Dragon Ball). When the characters gain the power increase during the Sensui battle, Kurama changes into his demon form due to the power increase, yet he insists that he has *not* become Youko Kurama (no personality change). In the final saga, he at one point refuses to take his demon form. So basically we have two personalities for one character- Youko Kurama and Shuichi Minamino. Both of these are referred to commonly (within the series and in r/l) as Kurama. Onikage725 13:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - With reasons stated above. I have my own issues with Jaganshi Hiei, and the fact is that Yoko Kurama is a title, not a name, while he's almost always referred to just as "Kurama" within the show. Katsuhagi 14:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Which is the most commonly used? "Yoko Kurama" or just "Kurama"? We should go with whichever is most commonly used in English. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Kurama is used much more commonly than "Yoko Kurama"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Kurama+Hakusho+-wikipedia+-yoko+-youko&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en = 83,000 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Yoko+Kurama%22+Hakusho+-wikipedia&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en = 12,100 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Youko+Kurama%22+Hakusho+-wikipedia&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en = 12,300 WhisperToMe 03:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicted) - Kurama is obviously most used throughout the series, both Japanese and in the English versions. But if we were to go by this theory, then Son Goku (Dragon Ball) would have to be moved and renamed to Goku. Or likely, Muten Roshi would be at Master Roshi or Kazuma Kuwabara would be moved to Kuwabara (YuYu Hakusho). Here are the guidelines that WP:MANGA adhere to: since this Kurama is a Japanese character, WP:MANGA#Sections says: "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as." If I may remind everyone, WP:MOSJAPAN#Names_of_modern_figures say to use the complete name also, except the English series calls him "Yoko Kurama" instead of "Kurama Yoko" and per WP:NC#Use_common_names_of persons-and-things, we'll use Yoko Kurama instead of the latter. Lord Sesshomaru 03:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• • The context is different, Sesshomaru. "Son" is a family name, and "Goku" is a given name. This is evident since Goku's sons are "Son Gohan" and "Son Goten." This is the same with Yusuke Urameshi, Kazuma Kuwabara, etc. Here, "Youko" a.k.a. "Demon Fox" is a title. Kurama is not the member of the "Demon Fox" family. WhisperToMe 03:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Also, if you read the English-language manga, the character profile sections refer to Hiei as "Hiei," and Kurama as "Kurama," while Yusuke and the human characters have their full names. WhisperToMe 03:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
    • "except the English series calls him "Yoko Kurama" instead of "Kurama Yoko"" - As I said, Yoko is not a family name. Therefore the order is not reversed. WhisperToMe 03:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
    • "Or likely, Muten Roshi would be at Master Roshi or Kazuma Kuwabara would be moved to Kuwabara (YuYu Hakusho)." - Muten Roshi's real name is not known. Muten Roshi means "Invincible Master" - He would either have to be called "Muten Roshi" ("Invincible Master") or Kame Sen'nin ("Turtle Hermit") WhisperToMe 03:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Wait--Kurama's ancestors aren't also Youko? That's odd, because that's how Yusuke and Hiei's families worked.KrytenKoro 18:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Kurama's ancestors are most probably Demon Foxes too, but that doesn't make it their last name. Think about it this way: Yukina is a/an kōrime (氷女, kōrime^?)/ice maiden and her ancestors are kōrime, but "kōrime" isn't her last name. "Youko" is the type of demon that he is, not the name of a clan or a family. --SilentAria ^talk 22:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicted) - I'm aware that it is not his family name, but its the name of the demon, which he apparently is. If Naruto Uzumaki was instead named after the Nine-tailed Demon Fox, then his article name (according to WP:MANGA) would be Kyubi no Yoko, I believe. However, though you may be correct on your assumptions, you still haven't provided the reason why the YuYu Hakusho official website uses Yoko Kurama and Jaganshi Hiei. Awhile back, we did have a Piccolo Daimao article, and I don't recall anyone arguing about the title in his name. Lord Sesshomaru 03:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between Piccolo Daimao (King Piccolo) and the resulting Piccolo - In a way, they are two separate characters: the more commonly-known Piccolo sprang out of the King Piccolo. "but its the name of the demon" - The article is both about Kurama in his human form and Kurama in his demon form. They are the same person, but the two forms have different appearances, powers, and reputations. For instance, the Kurama in his human form is known to most of the world as a studious schoolboy. The demon world knows Kurama as a vicious demon. "Kurama" best describes both forms, and the article is about the same person with two separate identities. Since Yusuke and the people who know about the spirit world call both forms as "Kurama," and he is known to the reader as a whole entity as "Kurama," "Kurama" is the best choice as a name for the article. Using "Yoko Kurama" would over-emphasize the stronger, original form and Kurama's original identity. WhisperToMe 03:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think I'm starting to see your point, but you still haven't answered my first question. BTW, is there a guideline that explicitly says that characters should not have titles in their article names? And of the official website which lists him as Yoko Kurama, and the other listed as Jaganshi Hiei, why are they named like that? Lord Sesshomaru 04:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

1. There are no guidelines that state that "titles" should not be in names. But, the general rule is to find the most common name. It is understandable with humans and human rules that humans should have their given and family name (not always middle name) in the article title. However, "Jaganshi" and "Yoko" are only sometimes used, and the latter is used to describe one of Kurama's two forms. Because the most common names used to describe the characters are simply "Hiei" and "Kurama," those names are the best choices for the article names.

2. "And of the official website which lists him as Yoko Kurama, and the other listed as Jaganshi Hiei, why are they named like that?" - I do not know why the official English anime website chose to include the seldom-used titles. I have a copy of the VIZ Shonen Jump, and it lists the characters like this:

• Yusuke Urameshi
• Kazuma Kuwabara
• Hiei
• Kurama
• Asato Kido

(This is on Page 142 of Volume 5, Issue 9, September 2007 (no, it is not September yet, but the book is labeled September)

Usually, when Yu Yu Hakusho characters are listed, the humans and human names are spelled in full, but the demon names are only used.

Also, does anyone have a Yu Yu Hakusho DVD by FUNimation? It would be nice to see how the DVD lists its character profiles. Also, does anyone have a copy of the U. S. Manga Corps translated movie? It would be interesting to see how it rendered Hiei and Kurama's titles. WhisperToMe 04:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't own any of the YuYu Hakusho collectibles. Sorry. Lord Sesshomaru 04:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• I do, in fact I have all of the individual DVD's for the series and the movies so I can help, using two dvds I discovered that they list the names of Kurama and Yoko Kurama separately depending on the form for the profile that is used. As for the movie I can watch it again if anyone needs the verification. Offhand, I do know a lot of minor differences between FUNimation and the U.S. Manga Corps versions in terms of material but I recall there was no information regarding this subject, but I can still watch it over again. -Adv193 05:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

What do the character profiles say for Kurama and Hiei on the DVDs and movies? Does it list their full names at least or is there none? Lord Sesshomaru 06:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• With Kurama, as stated above, the two forms are stated separately (Kurama for regular form, Yoko Kurama for original, enhanced form). WhisperToMe 07:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
  • With Hiei his full name was never used in the series or movies the only differences that he had for the movies is that his Jagan was reffered to as Evil Eye and his Dragon of the Darkness Flame was reffered to as Black Dragon Wave, other than that there were no differences on Hiei between the Series and Movies. -Adv193 17:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
    • The VIZ manga also calls the Jagan the "Evil Eye" - Also, how does the movie handle "Yoko Kurama" ? VIZ uses "Demon Fox Kurama" while the series uses "Yoko Kurama" WhisperToMe 19:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I'll seriously check right now. -Adv193 21:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Anyway the answer is that U.S. Manga Corps did not officially use the term Yoko Kurama in their dub however during Kurama's first battle against Kuronue the English subtitles did state the term Kurama Yoko. -Adv193 22:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
        • This is really strange. It would be good to document all of this and write it in a naming section. WhisperToMe 03:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
          • I just did another check and Kuronue's japanese voice did state it as Yoko Kurama. One thing is for certain on Movie 2 and that is U.S. Manga Corps English adaption and subtitles are nowhere near as good as Funimation's version. My best guess is that U.S. Manga Corps thought that Yoko was a last name, but of course if the whole name mix-up is ever noted then there should be none of this speculation -Adv193 04:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Thanks Adv193 for that insight. I'm about entirely convinced, this page is about both human and demon entities of Kurama. That differentiates this page from characters like Piccolo Daimao or Dr. O'Shay. Lord Sesshomaru 14:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)