Talk:Kura-Araxes culture

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Archaeologists really do believe that the Kura-Araxes people probably spread outward, not just their wares. It's been a while since I looked this stuff up, but I remember that the reasoning involved archaeological evidence of invasions into Syria-Palestine, follwed by the appearance of Kura-Araxes-style pottery. Isomorphic 14:55, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

If that were the case, we should be able to identify the "Kura-Araxes" people by a historical name, since the time frame alleged for their "invasion" definitely falls within the time frame of the historical record for Syria-Palestine.

Even archaeologists ought to realize that finding wares such as pottery is not an indication that there was a widespread "Kura-Araxes" empire with a population stretching from Dagestan to Palestine in the year 2200 BC. If there were, it would certainly be known from the historical record. All it indicates, is that the pottery was likely produced in the Araxes valley, and since items are often traded by merchants and other means, they eventually found their way over a wider area.

Most likely, the Aras valley was an early production centre for a certain hand-made pottery that was painted black and red with geometric designs. But, if we are to identify the "Kura-Araxes" people with any historically known group, it would almost certainly be the Mitanni, who did indeed impose a feudal rule over Syria around this time, and who had distinctively "Aryan" names and deities. Incidentally, the oldest traditions of the Iranian peoples also point to the Aras valley, once called Aran - another indication that this is where the Aryan Mitanni first came from. BTW I am working on a new draft for the Mitanni page on my user page, and will probably use some of your info about the "Kura-Araxes" archeology from this page... Thanks! Codex Sinaiticus 16:08, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

This article was a by-product of some research I did last fall. The claim of Kura-Araxes expansion definitely isn't my own; I think it came from one of the scholarly books I was reading, although unfortunately I didn't cite my source so I don't remember which one. I also don't remember if the author drew a connection with any historical records. I would be careful about linking the Mitanni and the Kura-Araxes unless you have a reference that does so; otherwise you're bordering on original research. Isomorphic 17:00, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

According to our current article on the Mitanni, they were significantly later than the Kura-Araxes culture. I google searched just now and found this paper, which has an extensive section on the Kura-Araxes mentioning the invasions. Isomorphic 17:12, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Curiously, maps showing the area in classical times tend to show the two rivers as having two separate mouths feeding into the Caspian Sea. Would anyone know how, or when this would have changed? Codex Sinaiticus 00:22, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

It's probably inaccurate mapmaking, not an actual change in the rivers' course. The Romans had a presence along the Black Sea coast, but to them the territory east of that was wild and mysterious. They knew India was over there somewhere, but had very little concept of how far away it was. If I remember correctly, they even thought that the Rioni river eventually wound around and became the Nile. Yes, the Nile in Egypt. Isomorphic 03:54, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I am assuming that you're referring to Roman (or Greek) maps. I would expect Persian maps of that area to be more accurate. Isomorphic 04:08, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merging with Kuro-Araxes culture

See my Kuro-Araxes culture, which is entirely dependent on JP Mallory and the EIEC.

This article is magnificant, and is considerably more recent than the one in EIEC. This article is also superb.

As for the name, Kura-Araxes culture seems the prevelent usage in the learnéd literature.

My main interest is in the culture's influence on the Maykop culture, and in turn how this applies to Indo-European studies. While it is clear there are (apparently) intrusive steppe elements in both Maykop and Kura-Araxes, there has been a (minority view) suggestion that the Anatolian languages could possibly have this as their Urheimat, with the remaining Indo-European stock coming down from Transcausasia into the steppe and a secondary Urheimat. --FourthAve 19:30, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I think they should be merged, and the relationships you mention discussed.--Wiglaf 21:50, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Mallory writes in EEIC, "Kuro-Araxes Culture", pp. 341-42.

The culture appears to have been an early center of wheeled vehicle production,and exhibits a precocious metallurgical development which strongly influenced surrounding regions. Bronze tools included axes, awls, sickles and knives.

The article has this sentence: "They were able to cold-forge unalloyed copper, but did not engage in smelting and did not use bronze". This has to be clarified, or corrected. Mallory clearly indicates bronze was in use. --FourthAve 22:35, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Nota Bene: 'bronze' is used to describe any alloy of copper. Arsenical bronze is a natural alloy, i.e., found in the same ore as the copper. Tin-copper alloys have to have the two metals brought together, usually from distant sites, as copper and tin occur in different kinds of rock, and these kinds of rock rarely co-occur in nature.

Quotes from this site

An extremely poor metal inventory has been documented for the early phase of the Kura-Araxes culture

In central Trans-Caucasia, the Kura-Araxes culture is dated mainly to the fourth to first quarter of the third millennium. In broad terms, the period represents the Late Chalcolithic and first phase of the Early Bronze Age

It is a widespread view that the metal from the Caucasian ore deposits together with certain types of metal artifacts were distributed to many regions of the Ancient World from the early stages of metallurgical production. Technological impulses coming primarily from northern Caucasian metallurgical centres were distributed from the river Volga to the Dniepr and even as far as the Carpathian mountains.[17] Trans-Caucasian metal products were widely distributed to the south throughout Anatolia and Syria-Palestine. So much so, that any research on Anatolian metallurgy should integrate the evidence of copper ore and arsenic deposits of the Caucasian region. Trans-Caucasian metal products were widely distributed to the south throughout Anatolia and Syria-Palestine. So much so, that any research on Anatolian metallurgy should integrate the evidence of copper ore and arsenic deposits of the Caucasian region.[18] Caucasian metallic ores and metallurgical traditions appear in the Near East corresponding to the arrival of the Trans-Caucasian population bearing the Kura-Araxes cultural traditions.[19] Migration routes from their Trans-Caucasian homeland took them south, west, south-west and south-east, into southern Palestine, central Anatolia and central Iran.

Elsewhere in the northern part of the Near East, in the second half of the fourth millennium, the same sequence of events took place. Late Uruk period sites were destroyed by Kura-Araxes people who introduced their own red-black, hand-made and burnished pottery. They brought with them a copper metallurgy with high-arsenic content and metal artifacts peculiar to them

Copper artifacts with a high arsenical content, cast in open and two-piece moulds, appeared in the Elâzığ region of Turkey when Kura-Araxes (‘Early Transcaucasian’) groups became culturally dominant there at the beginning of Early Bronze Age.

A similar pot, but with a wider, spherical body and decorated with cord impression was found in the Ukraine, in the Mikhailovka I settlement (on Pidpilna, a tributary of the lower Dniepr) dated to the late fourth millennium. This settlement has affinities on the one hand, with the Maikop culture of northern Caucasia, and on the other, with the Usatovo barrows near Odessa.

Put simply, the Kura-Araxes culture at its point of origin is logically earlier than its manifestations in the Near East.

One could speculate that the infiltration of the Kura-Araxes population into the Near East stimulated Mesopotamian sea commerce in the Arabian Gulf of the Jamdat Nasr period. Their presence may have triggered political disruption in eastern Anatolia, northern Syria and western Iran.

The second phase of the Early Bronze Age of Central Trans-Caucasia witnesses the final stages of Kura-Araxes culture. This phase is represented in the final layers of Level B at Kvatskhelebi-Khizanaant Gora, in the bulk of the Early Bronze Age material from Sachkhere and in the latest burials of Amiranis Gora. The Early Kurgan culture of central Trans-Caucasia also belongs to this time and two groups are distinguishable. The first comprises the kurgans (barrows) of the Martqopi/Ulevari and Samgori valleys (east of Tbilisi) and the earliest among the so-called ’Early Bronze Age kurgans of Trialeti.’ The second and chronologically subsequent group, is represented by the kurgans of the Bedeni plateau (near Trialeti) and the Alazani valley (in Kakheti, the eastern part of east Georgia), as well as by the later kurgans of the early Trialeti and the later group of Martqopi kurgans with pit graves.[51]

This phase appears to be contemporary with the particularly wide diffusion of the Kura-Araxes culture in the Near East. Overall, it should be dated to the first half and the middle of the third millennium. Such a date is substantiated by the typological parallels between the metalwork finds in this phase.

There is more, but I'll stop here. There is a lot of information to absorb, and not all of it fits into the scope of a wikipedia article. --FourthAve 22:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History of Armenia

Why is there a paragraph on the earliest mention of "Armenians" in classical sources? The Kura-Araxes culture is not, as far as I know, considered to be the same as the Armenian people. Isomorphic (talk) 17:06, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Reference is on the page -> Armenians” "Kura-Araxes culture" in Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture or EIEC, edited by James P. Mallory and Douglas Q. Adams, published in 1997 by Fitzroy Dearborn. Please read the bottom few references its the same author James P. Mallory. 75.51.168.23 (talk) 07:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Combining the "Armenians" and the "Kura-Araxes culture" entries in the EIEC into a hodge-podge falls under WP:SYN, but fwiiw, we can certainly mention that the KA culture plays a role in the Armenian hypothesis of PIE origins. We can mention this, but detailed exposition belongs in the Armenian hypothesis article. If Ararat arev could get himself to edit honestly, he could build a detailed and good article on the Armenian hypothesis (since that appears to be his hobby-horse), and his time on Wikipedia would at least result in some net effect (as opposed to just wasting everyone elses time with zero effect). --dab (𒁳) 10:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)