Talk:Kunbi

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[edit] Definitions

I am aware that the Kunbis exist in Goa and in the rest of the Konkan. I am aware that Sharad Pawar, who either claims to be, or for whom it is claimed that he is, a Maratha, is actually a Kunbi.

What I do not know is that Shivaji Bhonsale was one. This is news. Also that the Kunbis are Kshatriyas.

Refer to his Powara page in Marathi. This is about Afjal Khan's fight with Shivaji. In this Powara Afjal calls Shivaji a Kunbi. http://www.powade.com/lyrics/agindas/agindas.pdf

If they are Kshatriyas, then they must be Kshatriyas wherever they exist, which is false, for in Goa they are counted as Shudras, not Chardos or Kshatriyas.

The Bhonsale family history claims descent from a collateral branch of the Chittor royal house forced to take refuge in the south. It was on this basis that the Brahmins agreed to crown Shivaji according to Hindu rituals. According to Hindu law, the Bhonsales were Kshatriyas who had become Shudras because they had failed to perform the Upanayana Samskara for two or more generations. As such, if a member of the related family that had not lost their caste status adopts the lapsees, the lapsee can be reinstated into the Caste system, and this is what was done in Shivaji's case.

The Patels of Gujarat were certainly Kunbis, but it is more precise to define them as a subsection of Kunbis who have effectively transformed themselves and are no longer recognizable as Kunbis. The Patel name, according to the Patel page, developed from the name "Patlik"; but this is false, and that article deliberately confuses Patils and Patels, who are two different groups. The Patels developed as a result of a Hindu reform movement, the Patidar Movement, which transformed them from Shudras to a Kshatriya sub-caste. A more recent example of this is the Swadhyay Movement.

Patel is derived from Patidar; Patil, derived from Patlik, is a village head, similar to Mukhia, Nayak or Chowdhary, titles used in other parts of South Asia.

Just as the Patidar movement did earlier, the Swadhyay movement today Brahminizes those low caste folk who adopt it; they give up meat and fish and become vegetarians, and adopt upper caste rituals, etc. This is caste mobility.

What is "Northern Maharashtra"? It is a label I am incapable of understanding, so I request a definition. When people speak of Maharashtra, they speak of Western Maharashtra, which is an euphemism for the Desh, and they speak of the Konkan & Vidarbha. I have never before encountered a reference to "Northern Maharashtra". It seems as easy to conceive as an "Eastern Chile"!

If it is true that Gurjars or Gujjars are a subsection of the Kunbis, then it must be true where ever the Gujjars are found. But this is evidently not true of Gujjars throughout South Asia, both in Bharat and in Pakistan. Therefore, it cannot be true.

Is there any support for the claim that the Kunbis form 55% of the population, and if so, where exactly —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WikiSceptic (talk • contribs) .

Be Bold, your argument sounds convincing and you may change the relevant information on Kunbi, Gujjar and Patel. However, I thought that the Caste System in Goa would be almost inexistent because it is predominantly a Roman Catholic state. Also, remove any information that seems to be wrong, or at least not firmly proven, like the 55% of Gujarat being Kunbi. DaGizza Chat (c) 08:45, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, DaGizza. I always sign my posts, but here it seems I overlooked doing that. But the article as it stands is so flawed that I do not know how to rewrite it. I do not believe that negative statements, i.e., a denial of the claim that Shivaji Bhonsale was a Kunbi, belongs within an encyclopedic article. I will wait and see for a few days, if old contributors will come up to take up this matter, and if not, I will see what I can do to correct the entry.
Regarding Goa, unfortunately, despite having converted to Christianity, and particularly after Portugal became involved more with the War against the Dutch invaders and for independence from Spain, from which time it was no longer as zealous to protect Christians from pagan blandishments, Goans have backslided to various extents in different parts of Goa, but all, as far as I know, backslided into a revival of pagan social practises. I know, for my own parents claimed to be "Brahmins", which for me is anathema as a practising Christian. As a matter of fact, this is an explosive issue in Goa, that has been hushed up, but which sometimes blows up. The last time, the diehard "Gaoncars" of the village of Cuncolim threatened schism when the Parish Priest attempted to make the Parish Council inclusive of Kunbi and other Christians, considered "Shudras". The situation in India, particularly in Tamil Nadu, is far worse. A former Benedictine monk from Shantivanam informed me that the Bishop of Kanyakumari unleashed goons upon a Dalit priest and his independent order of nuns because they would not surrender their land that has gone up in value, and his goons even raped some of the nuns in front of this elderly priest!
As for "backsliding", recently, a Hindu, Mangalorean Konkani doctor in the U.K. had taunted me in a list for objecting to paganism, triumphantly pointing out that very many Goan Christians go to the Damodar temple at Zambaulim to pray there. Things have become much worse in the last forty years, due to "Vatican II", with priests and bishops now vying to lead Christians into even further "eclecticism", or more precisely, spiritual adultery.
Regards. WikiSceptic 09:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

From what I've read so far, it seems Shivaji was related to the Kshatriya family of Rajasthan from his mother's ( Jijabai) side. I might be wrong. The story about thread ceremony not being performed in the Bhosale family for two generations does not seem correct. Can someone shed more light on these stories? No offense intended to any caste or sub-caste. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.137.2.50 (talk) 19:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate version

I have created an alternate version of the Kunbi page here: Talk:Kunbi/AltVersion. If there are no objections, after sometime, I will make it (or the improved version) the main page. WikiSceptic 14:53, 26 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Great article

This is a great article. It has some valuable information in it.

Some suggestions:

1. The term Kunbi is also used in Gujarat (for Patels), its north Indian form is Kurmi.

2. Its Sanskrit form is "Kautumbika". The earliest mention is from Gujarat, in a Buddhist inscription.

3. The term "shudra" is ambiguous. It can be defined in many ways. I am not aware of a definition that will satisfy a majority of the scholars. Thus it should be used only if it can be defined, and if there is a need to use the term.

--Malaiya 19:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Brahmins are Shudras ?

Now days very few Brahmins perform thread ceremony and this mean they are lower than Shudras. Brahmins have started eating meat and travelling abroad, so they become Shudra. Inter caste marriages in Brahmin have picked up and they have turned Shudra. Scholars will surely disagree with the basis of caste system followed in India. As per Geeta a Brahmin is person with knowledge, no desire for wealth & sexual pleasures. Even a Brahmin who practices thread cremony is not a brahmin if does not practice religious cermonies as per books. It seems that a Kunbi does not claim to be not a part of Hindu Culture and therefore they are not Kshtryias, Shudra, Brahmins and Vaniyas....they are Patidars or Kunbi. A kunbi can be Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Christian and there are very few kunbis who practice Hindu religions as they used to practice Buddhism after failure of Hindu religion.


Reply:

You are WRONG.According to Hinduism, Upanayan Vidhi is a Sanskara. You do not become a Brahmin or Kshatriya just by performing the thread ceremony. Also you are not demoted to lower caste if you do not perform thread ceremony. Brahmin is a Varana and not a caste. And Varnas are defined according one's GUNA ( Satwa, Rajas or Tamas) and KARMA. Please read Geeta again. The information you have posted is erroneous. The classical definition of Brahmin is "The one who knows What BRAHMA is", is a brahmin. Brahmins used to eat meat during vedic period. So meat eating is not forbidden. Also do not confuse Caste system with Varna System. Are you sure about your statement that Kunbis do not claim to be part of Hindu Culture ? Islam, Christianity and Buddhism do not have Varna or Caste. Also most of the muslims or christians who claim to be Kunbis are converted Mulsims/Christians. So, at one point of time they were Hindus. Also, can you elaborate on There are very few Kunbis who practice Hindu Religion?

I have a question. Is UPANAYANA vidhi a part of the Kunabi culture ? I am sure in Maharashtra Kunbis do not wear the thread. If I am not mistaken Kunbis are farmers and not Kshatriyas. 96 KuLee Marathas are Kshatriyas. Correct me if I am wrong. Thread ceremony is performed only in the Royal family of Bhosale. Also, there seems to be some confusion as to who is Kunbi and who is 96 KuLee Maratha. e.g. The last name Chavan is derived from the Rajput name Chauhan. They are Kshatriyas and not KuNbees. This page should me modified to reflect correct and historically accurate information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.137.2.50 (talk) 18:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)



"Reply" A BRAHMIN IS A SHUDRA is very RIGHT. Kunbi is a very different group of people and it has been formed over the many past centuries. I have seen different practices in this kunbi group primarily based on status in society. My great grandfather was from a wealthy kunbi family and he has performed UPANAYANA vidhi. In fact he had 4 sons all of whom had performed thread ceremony. This was during early 19th century. After the killing of Mahatma Gandhi by Brahmin's there has been a considerable divide in the Marathi society. The condition of many Marathi Brahmin's is so poor and shows prominent division that happened in Marathi society after 1950. Also I don't believe the concept of caste being called as a BRAHMIN. In fact the present day so called Brahmin's should give up the caste name because they have assign themselves to a VARNA just by birth. So a person is called a Brahmin's only if he does not show exceptional skill. In fact a false Brahmin's can become corrupt and that is the main reason why India is ranked 17th in terms of corruption. I have seen so many false Brahmin's destroying the career of intellectuals irrespective of their caste. The same concept is copied by other caste people and has destroyed the India economy to a vast extent. If you see the impressive performance of Indians abroad then why the same is not happening in India. It is primarily because of this Brahmin caste creation. The caste system formed by Brahmin's had vandelised the Indian society. This is a part of development process and Brahmin's alone are not to be blamed for this. The same is true for European countries and African countries. Also kunbi is a term commonly referred to as KUTUMBIK in Gujarat , Maharashtra and northern parts of India. It is very hard to bring down the self created false pride of a Brahmin's and therefore classification of a BRAHMIN AS A SHUDRA is correct. A true Brahmin's is a person who is wise and down to earth. A Brahmin must not have inclination for wealth or other world pleasures. It is difficult to buy any kind of caste theory from a Brahmin's. In fact the present day Brahmin's should not be allowed to tamper the historical caste structure and must be kept away from the society. THE CASTE SYSTEM IN INDIA IS LIKE UNREGULATED ROAD TRAFFIC AND NO ONE KNOWNS WHAT IS HAPPENING. IF A ACCIDENT HAPPENS IT ENDS IN A QUARREL WITH WASTE OF TIME FOR OTHERS ON THE ROAD. The caste discussions are endless and a simple issue cannot be solved even in 1000 years time. Please see the outside world which is developing fast and no one cares what race or origin he has. I would appreciate if a so called Brahmin's edits his own website. DhananjayJ (talk) 21:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)Singed by Dhananjay Jadhav, Brisbane: Australia 12 May 2008


>>>>>--Sanjaydh (talk) 19:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC) In this day and age, of internet, globalization and market economy you are talking like a some 16th/17th century Pundit from Kashi. Can you practice Hinduism to the letter of the religious scripture in today's world ? You will be an outcast. e.g. Can you practice untouchability? Forget the dalits of India. An upper caste Hindu is not allowed to touch people who eat beef. Kshatriyas are supposed to protect cows. Can a Kshatriya kill a british or an American man just because he eats beef? I thought we wanted to get away from that and practice more spiritual form of Hinduism. But people like you want to get back to the old days. Or they just want to use something to show hatred for the other castes? If Brahmins or any other so called upper caste practiced the form of hinduism they practiced 100-200 years ago, they will be killed.

[edit] Ancient India & Caste System

From the many wikipedia pages on hindu, jain, buddhist & British Raj in India it seems that Maharashtrian Brahmins have always tried to invent new stories for throwning any powers out. In turn they have destroyed there own existance. Many brahmins are living in poverty. Infact the untouchables in India were educated by Brahmins and now they have too become corrupt. This is very strange and i simply cannot understand what these confused group of Maharashtrian Brahmins are upto.

6 April 11:00AM, Mark

Can you be more specific ? You are making a very general and vague statement. I am a Maharashtrian Brahmin and I don't think Maharashtrian brahmins are living in a poverty. What is the source of this information? How have we destroyed our own existance. We were driven out of villages due to the Anti-Brahmin movement in Maharashtra. Most of the Brahmin community of Maharashtra lives in Urban areas. Maharshtrian brahmins put up a fight against the british ( e.g. TiLak , Tatya Tope, Rajguru, Vasudev BaLwant Phadke, Queen of Jhansi Laxmilbai etc..). What stories did we invent ? We fought with the Muslims and British and at one point of time Maratha Kingdom was the biggest and the most powerful kingdom in India. Many Brahmins in Maharshtra are in UK, USA, England and Australia in IT, Engineering or Medical profession. In Maharashtra too they are doing well. I suggest that you get your fact right and give specific examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.137.2.50 (talk) 18:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kunbis != Kurmis

Kunbis DO NOT equal Kurmis nor do they share a common ethno-cultural heritage. Kunbis were historically accorded the same social status given to Kurmis in North hence the similar names.... It would be better if some Kunbi guy could clarify this for our POV warrior.

Image:England flag large.png अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 21:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Kunbis and kurmis are same caste. They are present mainly in Maharastra, Gujarat, MP, UP and Bihar. You can refer to some of URLS present in this page. Can you share some of the information that you used to make this statement ?

[edit] VarnaShram Dharma

Before reverting the changes understand the Varnas system well. Do not mix varnas with caste. Most of the anti-Hindu people use caste to defame Hinduism. Hindushudra 18:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vijay Hazare

I have corrected the link to the article on Vijay Hazare. But this article mentions that he was a Goan Christian while this artice Vijay Hazare says he was from Sangli. If he was from Goa he would probably have a Lusitanian name, not Hazare. Can someone please verify ?--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 09:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Kunbi primary living in Maharastra

There is significant Kunbi population in Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, UP and Bihar. They are call Kunbi and Kurmi in Madhya Pradesh. in UP and Bihar they are mostly known as Kurmi but as Kunbi in some districts. Even in Gujarat they are known as Kunbi Patidars. So why are we making this article only Maharastra focused. There is another article on Kurmis also. I would propose to merge these two articles to one and give one complete view about our Kunbi/Kurmi community. We can provide more info when we mentioned about the community in a given state. I liked approched taken by Gujjars and Sainis.


[edit] Vishwapurush: A Kunbi-- helped Parashurama to reduce his anger against Kshtriyas

Parashurama a great sage who saved the earth from greed of Kshtriyas was eliminated by a kunbi sage know as Vishwapurush. Vishwapurush being a kunbi had unique power of controlling Brahmin and Kshtriyas DhananjayJ (talk) DhananjayJ 16:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)