Talk:Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński
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Is the infobox with the name and birth/death dates of the poet really necessary? It doesn't really add anything to the article. I'll replace it with the photo and his name, if no one objects.
[edit] The matrilineal aspect of Jewish descent
Found the website that makes an argument saying Baczynski's mother may have had Jewish ancestry here in a Polish-Jewish type magazine: [1] Found primary source to be Lewandowski, Józef: SZKŁO BOLESNE, OBRAZ DNI. Eseje nieprzedawnione. Ex libris Uppsala 1991. Argument appears to be that Baczynski could be Jewish through the matrilineal descent of his maternal grandmother. This is somewhat taboo for Poles, because of his Polish nationalism (fighting and dying in Warsaw Uprising in 1944). There seems to be no reason why anyone would consider Baczynski ...a man who's mother was "a practicing Catholic" [2] and a father who was an irreligious, ethnically Polish Pole... to be listed as a Jew UNLESS we ran on the assumption that matrilineal descent is a wikipedia standard. Stirring up a debate between the "racism" or "antisemitism" of nationalism seems to be the primary incentive for making the claim in the weblink above. "Nationalism leads to hate debate" [3] mentions Catholicism (rather baptism and Christianity only assuming Catholicism) of family and grandparents. 141.211.251.70 07:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- There is an explicit source that says he was Jewish.--Runcorn 18:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
First of all, the source no longer exists, it is a dead cache. Secondly, there is nothing detailed in wikipedia standards or policy that says one source saying something has to be assumed to be correct even when further sources prove otherwise. We can take a test example with Freida Kahlo, a Mexican artist who was thought to be Jewish and then proven not to be. Here [4] it says she's Jewish. Should we continue listing her as such because "There is an explicit source that says she was Jewish?" 141.211.216.33 04:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- The source exists, preserved as a cache. Anyway, web pages used as references disappear all the time; we can't rewrite Wikipedia every time that happens. That is precisely why web links should quote the text being relied on and the date of access, so that if they disappear, people can see what they said.--Runcorn 13:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
If a web page used as a singular reference does disappear, then it most definitely needs to be replaced. Furthermore, if the point that webpage was making was correct, it shouldn't be hard at all to re-cite it. Talking generally about all articles: any singular reference on a webpage that can't be found and re-cited using another webpage or a physical body (a book, a published article) shouldn't be seen as reliable anyway, ESPECIALLY not for historical topics (information of people or events that have long transpired). This is speaking for all citations.
Now, specifically for this article, the questions above still really haven't been addressed. Why should the details of Krzysztof's ethnic and religious ancestry be ignored when there are other sources stating his exact extent of religious and ethnic Jewish ancestry? Because some webpage says he's "Polish-Jewish" explicitly? Well some webpages say Alan Turing, Frida Kahlo, Adolf Hitler, and numerous other gentile people's are Jewish, explicitly, too. And how can you argue they are any less reliable that this dead cache with nothing but a sentence on it? And if you do argue reliability, how could you argue THIS webpage is more reliable than the texts talking about Krzysztof's ancestry in full? 141.213.31.230 16:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ethnicity
I removed this for now until we can get reliable sources. Thanks, --Tom 20:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- A reliable source is [5]. The fact that they have included a biography of him means that they are asserting that he was Jewish.--Runcorn 22:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no requirement that sources must be in English. It is wrong to delete properly sourced material. OK?--Runcorn 08:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- It's not properly sourced because it doesn't say Baczynski is Jewish at all. I went and replaced Baczynski on List of Polish Jews with his mother Stefania Zieleńczyk, who is famous enough to have an article on the Polish wiki even if one might not be made here. Any matter, I do agree with Tom that giving Jewish categories to Baczynski himself is inappropriate. The link provided is NOT a biography of Baczynski, it is an essay on several poets during WWII, Baczynski just being the most prominent. But to say that because Baczynski is mentioned on a website called Polish-Jewish-Heritage.com, it becomes a good source to call him Jewish by, is really very wrong. Tadeusz Borowski is mentioned in the same essay. We all know he is not Jewish. No Pole would ever consider Baczynski a Jew and it has nothing to do with antisemitism. I do not believe any historian or biographer has ever considered Baczynski a Jew. Most even still quarrel over whether his mother really was Jewish. As Lewandowski suggests, it was his mother's mother, which would make sense since Zielenczyk isn't a Jewish heritable name. I am not well read in Baczynski to know if there are any viewpoints that might consider him Jewish, but it would have to be good enough to argue against the words of his researchers, who appear to not find it relevant enough to mention if it is true. A well-respected historian should have written about it. In any case, I would rather get someone who actually knows a lot about Baczynski arguing that he is Jewish than someone who is just saying Baczynski is Jewish because it makes them more proud to be a Jew. LeszekB 11:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
"I would rather get someone who actually knows a lot about Baczynski arguing that he is Jewish than someone who is just saying Baczynski is Jewish because it makes them more proud to be a Jew" Firstly, we do not give more weight to experts on Wikipedia than to any other editor; we go not by pronouncements but by reliable sources, which can be produced by anyone. Secondly, it is wrong to impute motives to editors and may be a breach of WP:AGF or even WP:NPA.--Runcorn 13:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
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- Does the article say that he is Jewish? Does anybody have any English sources for this material? TIA --Tom 13:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- Why do you keep asking for a source in English?--Runcorn 22:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
the source does not say Baczynski being jewish himself. please stop the myths.
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- ps, also, as far as the above post saying that an editor would add this material out of Jewish pride, there are also editors who add this type of thing for anti-semetic reasons so please don't assume an editors motive, only that they have one, and they should be countered, thanks,
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You both realize my comment was talking about sources, not wikipedia editors, right? LeszekB 23:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
