Talk:Kretek

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[edit] History

what about some more history? Kreteks only seem to be widely used in two countries, Indonesia and US.. How did they get to USA?

Good idea. Although I don't know the answer. Perhaps I'll make up a to-do list relating to Kreteks so hopefully those that do know can fill in the information. -- Ari 20:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
They are also widely available in Canada at most upscale smoke shops. I wouldn't be surprised if they could be found all over the world. Soosed 05:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
They're also widely smoked in Brazil in (gosh I hate that word) hipster circles and nightclubs. Easily available in pretty much any newsstand. I actually thought they were really really light menthols because I only see girls smoking them, so when I decided to have a box around to smoke in (snip irrelevant existential rant where I have to take antipsychotics) I chose a Djarum Black Dnavarro (talk) 17:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] health effects

I should mention, I believe it's completely NPOV to say "Don't smoke cigarettes" in the Health Effects section. Imagine the following conversation:

"Doctor, doctor, every time I put this thing in my lungs, my lungs start bleeding. What should I do?"
"Don't put that thing in your lungs."

This is true whether the thing is a knife or cigarette smoke. The Dogandpony 12:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Possibly true, although the health effects are discussing dangers beyond normal cigarettes. "don't smoke cigarettes" would fit a bit better on the cigarettes page. Similar to "don't drink and drive" isn't on every type of liquor article. -- Ari 14:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

That and considering that there are few legitimate, fully-fledged tests involving Kreteks, it is uncertain the extent of its health side effects. Taking this into consideration, smoking any kind of tabacco can have anything but positive effects on your lungs. "Don't smoke cigs" is a straight forward, irrational assumption. In my opinion, "Don't smoke" shouldn't be something found in an online dictionary, rather something found on an anti-tabacco propaganda.

[edit] Our Old Friends the Citationistas.

If you demand a citation for the (clearly outrageous) claim that cloves burn more slowly than regular cigarettes, try fucking smoking one. You people have gone way too far. I doubt there are any studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals regarding the time required to smoke a clove; similarly, there are no such studies about the colour of the sky, the Pope's religion, or whether bears defecate in the woods. Wormwoodpoppies 22:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow didn't notice someone put {fact} all over the place. If no one else does I'll eventually go through and add citations or delete useless tags. Interestingly there is a source that is already in the article"Average time to smoke the clove cigarette (549 s) and number of puffs (15.1) were significantly greater than own brand" [1] -- Ari 23:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It IS true that clove cigarettes burn slower than ordinary cigarettes, especially Djarum Black. Some cloves burn faster than others, for example Djarum Menthol or Cherry burns somewhat faster than the black. Wormpoppies has apparently never smoked a Djarum Black.

Given the boldness and clarity with which he stated his claim, I'm sure he has; in fact, I think it likely that it might even be the only kretek he has smoked due to their relative unavailability in the North American smoking market. He was only comparing clove cigarettes to standard tobacco cigarettes and correctly identifying the whole matter as a moot point since everything from cigarette length, filter density, personal smoking habits and even the quality of the original roll, machine or no, will vary the results. --Randall00 Talk 23:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

In-line citations are valuable and if reference reliable material can only help an article. Whether or or not the request for citations on the relative burning speed of cloves is reasonablee, it is but one request in the article. The others seem to be more than reasonable, and there is arguably scope for more. But one step at a time. Citation requests don't have to be answered immediately, they do NOT change the information, they hopefully trigger a reader to contribute if they know about the topic, they remind us that we cannot always believe everything we read and we must use our own discretion, and they are no reason to get upset over. What's the big deal??? See Citing_sources#When_to_cite_sources - read that and people are hopefully more comfortable with the whole idea of citing reliable references. --Merbabu 22:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Lots of "[citation needed]" clutters the article though. 213.65.178.113 16:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Find the citations then. Or the info can be removed.--Merbabu 16:48, 2 December

[edit] Clove Cigarettes in Popular Culture

It's stated that it's important in "goth, punk and indie subcultures", yet it shows no examples. I plan on adding some references, and contributions, espicially in way of citations or sources would be greatly appreaciated. FerventDove 18:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC) 2006 (UTC)

I've never known them to be a feature in any subculture, excepting perhaps the "kretek-smoking" subculture derived from the product itself. --Randall00 Talk 02:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
It's been quite the opposite for me. I never saw anyone kreteks before my first show. Here, they talk about it's use in goth and punk subcultures, I can't seem to source anything for indie or emo. FerventDove 05:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
There was a funny "How To Trap a Goth" guide I saw on the internet a few years ago that mentioned using them to keep your trapped goth healthy, and the only person I've met who actually smokes them is a fellow punk. Of course, that isn't a citation and not enough for the article, but the claim does seem to hold some merit. Ungovernable ForcePoll: Which religious text should I read? 05:16, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

As an African American male I have noted that there are quite a few kretek smokers in our population. Especially in college environments for some reason. I don't recall ever being at a party (being a kretek smokoer myself) finding them in short supply. Now not being around that same group of smokers they are not as readily available but still accessable nonetheless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.198.150.245 (talk) 04:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Toxic emmissions are a bit incorrect...

Holding a package of Canadian Dunhill Special reserve, a smoke that is considered fairly strong here. Toxic emmissions are a fair bit lower, than a pack of Djarum blacks. Both packages are king size, the Dunhill smoke is about 4mm shorter than the kretek.

Emissions Dunhill\Kretek in mg per unit

Tar 12-33 \ 42.2-76 Nicotine 1.2-3.0 \ 1.88-3.39 Carbon monoxide 12-32 \ 24.8-42.4 Formaldehyde 0.082-0.23 \ 0.09-0.2 Hydrogen cyanide 0.12-0.34 \ 0.323-0.618 Benzene 0.047-0.096 \ 0.110-0.195 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.6.93.239 (talk) 07:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

Interesting. Do you have a source? -- Ari 17:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Canadian tabacco laws require toxic emmissions to be printed on every package, all figures were taken from that info on the outside of the box. 207.6.93.239 02:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] lung bleeding concerns and slow burning quality

I have long been aware, long enough that the source has faded from memory, that the reason for the stories of clove cigs causing lungs to bleed is because it was true. Pesticides and herbacides which have been deemed unsafe in America are often still manufactured and sold overseas, particularly in third world countries where chemical companies often have unmitigated power. It is my recollection that in the mid to late 80's youth smokeing cloves and coughing up blood were a common enough occurance in my sphere of friends....i began smoking them later. It was reported in less mainstream media that it was the application of one of these pesticedes on the tabbaco crops in indonesia that was making it's was into the lung of American youth. Despite strongarming efforts by the chemical companies in indonisia to resist the change of practice and hence loss of sales, the desire to mitigate dropping sales of the cig product in America won out and the chems no longer were used...though replaced by others which have yet to be demonstrated as having a bearing on human health by the FDA.

As to postings regarding cloves being slower burning it is not only true but one of the intended traits of the product. Traditionally they are passed around a table and lightly puffed on by persons during a meal as a means to damped the effects of one food from interfearing with the ability to taste another...particularly when the foods have different hot spices from each other. Ever been the only clove smoker at a table of dinners who fried their mouths on very spicy curry? You step outside, and get the only bennifit of smoking cloves...a reprieve from the spice burn and the ability to not only continue painless eating but to still be able to distinguish the flavors of the food.24.21.184.130 03:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a common belief but so far I have seen no evidence to support it. In the 80s there was an anti-clove campaign after a few isolated deaths but the evidence pointing to kreteks was small and I have yet to see a study showing them to cause bleeding anymore than other cigarettes (as coughing up blood is common with heavy standard cigarette smoking as well). -- Ari 03:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tar Levels (Under Health effects topic)

As an ex-smoker and tobacco collector I have many packets of Kreteks. As the article states Djarum blacks for export have 10-12mg of Tar and 1mg of Nicotine.

Kreteks in indonesia have much higher tar / nicotine content to their exported versions, Djarum blacks are 25mg Tar / 1.6mg Nictotine. The indonesian Fastal-5's have 48mg of tar, 2.6mg of Nicotine.

I've added that the indonesian verions contain more tar than the exported versions but i'm not sure why, is it due to tax, country restrictions or something else? If somone fonud out they can take the addition and make a new section about differences between indonesian versions / us versions.

Neosophist 12:27, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV in the Legal Staus Section

The line

"The bill was motivated by concerns that flavored cigarettes, such as kreteks, were cutting into the market share of traditional cigarettes sold by large tobacco firms which had effective lobbyists"

Seems to take a very cynical view of lobbyists and should either be cited as a fact or changed to reflect a more neutral point of view

Standmatt 05:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)standmatt

I agree. While it's pretty obvious based on stats the claims of "for the children" was bogus and it was based more around lobbying, that line is POV and needs to be changed. -- Ari 05:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The fact that it is also unreferenced made me remove it and the tag. Be Bold  :-) --Merbabu 08:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)