Talk:Kray twins

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[edit] Phrasing

I changed 'psychopathic homosexual' to 'psychopath.' There is nothing inherently psychopathic about being homosexual. What is meant by psychopathic homosexual? Is that a euphemism for pedophile? If so, then 'psychopathic pedophile' is preferred, although that sounds redundant. Kingturtle 18:54 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Kingturtle. I'm a bit embarrassed at how that entry sounded, in the cold light of day. Ronnie Kray's homosexuality is important, and interesting but I wasn't sure how to introduce it into the article. Any ideas? Rayray 14:29 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
Writing 'psychopathic homosexual' does not imply that there is anything inherently psychopathic about being homosexual, in the same way that writing 'Clifford the big red dog' does not imply anything inherently red about being a dog. Or, anything inherently red about being big. etc. Two things I'm curious about though: firstly, what is a homosexual friendship? Are two men who have a non-sexual friendship homosexual? Or, if it is a sexual relationship, then would another word be more appropriate than friendship? Secondly, how long was 1956, if Ron spent three years in jail during that time? Was it a non-standard 36-month year as some means of correcting a calendar abberation? Eric, 12:27pm, Oct 20 2004, NZT
There is nothing in the article which indicates why one brother was more of a psychopath than the other. Can that be spelled out? RickK 03:34 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Comments always welcome. I think there are a couple of points which indicate that; "Ron was the dominant twin, and a psychopath" in the first paragraph, and "Reg was persuaded by his brother to kill Jack 'the Hat' McVitie". If you think this needs more clarification (something like "Ron was the dominant twin, and a psychopath, whilst Reg was something of a reluctant murderer") then go for it. Rayray 08:11 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I don't know enough about the subject to make any worthwhile contributions. RickK 01:27 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I have substantially filled this article out, giving it some more structure and lots more detail, after reading The Profession of Violence. A fascinating read. It still needs some polishing, links added etc. --192.43.227.18 07:54, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC), aka GoldenRing.

I must say that I am very impressed with your additions to this aritcle. I think that they've really improved it. Thank you for making them. Is your username GoldenRing? Acegikmo1 06:10, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"The Profession Of Violence" states that the twins were born on 17 October 1934 (4th Edition, page 18). Can somebody confirm the correct birthdate? WJL 08:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced statement

"In the case of the Krays, Ronnie, although the younger of the two, was the dominant twin. He was also a paranoid schizophrenic psychopath."

Do you have a source for that, or did you just make it up? Note that "psychopath" refers to a person with antisocial personality disorder, and that condition and schizophrenia are completely different entities. Vorpalbla 05:04, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Complete nonsense. Neither Kray was a psychopath. Ronnie was a paranoid schizophrenic, quite probably bought about by diptheria when he was three. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.92.38.62 (talk • contribs)
That's right, neither of them were pyscopaths although.... they existed slightly closer to the raving nutter line than most people. However, they did actually help some people out of sticky circumstances with other criminals. A friend of mine is still alive thanks to their legacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.79.192 (talk • contribs)

I know nothing of them helping out people in bad situations with other criminals (comment above), but my grandfather ran a tailor's in Bond Street when the Krays ran protection rackets, and his shop was one of the ones they targetted. They were, he said, well known enough that you just let them get on with taking whatever they wanted, opened the till and went to a stockroom. People who even spoke to them (I assume to the nutter one, Rob) could sometimes end up dead, so you just got out of the way. Mysticaloctopus 20:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced statements

OK, what the hell is this? All these quotes flying about with no goddamn references? What a mess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.123.53 (talk • contribs)

[edit] WikiProject British Crime

  • For those interested, a WikiProject regarding crime in Great Britain has been proposed. MadMax 19:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diptheria

So how can diptheria, a respiratory disease lead to mental illness? I'm removing this reference.It doesn't make sense and is purely speculative. Rrose Selavy 15:08, 7 Nov 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sexuality

It is well known Ronnie was gay, why can't we just say that in the article??! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.32.117.101 (talk • contribs)

The article says he was bisexual. I have also re-categorised the article, allowing us to add this article to British Mobsters, and place the sexuality of Ron on his feeding page - - to say Reg was LGBT is factually incorrect. Rgds, --Trident13 13:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd accept the 'bisexual' description of Ron if there were any sources showing he ever had a sexual relationship with a woman. Otherwise I'd have thought it was common knowledge he was gay. If anything, Reg is the more likely 'bisexual' twin. Given the illegality of male homosexuality in the UK up until 1969 and the potential for blackmail etc its not a minor point here. Plutonium27 10:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Celebrity support?

There was a long-running campaign, with much celebrity support, to have the twins released from prison

I don't recall much celebrity support - only Barbara Windsor. Is there a reference for this statement? Apepper 23:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Patsy Kensit

Patsy Kensit is not Reggie Krays God-Daughter, it is her brother James Kensit who has Reggie Kray as a God-Father. (See page 156 of "Born Fighter" by Reggie Kray). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.223.42 (talk • contribs)

[edit] External Links

The BBC Crime site is now closed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/thekrays.shtml) so I have deleted the hyperlink to that site.--ukexpat 14:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LGBT

I have again removed the LGBT category from the article, but happy for it to be part of the LGBT project. Here's the logic - Ron was Gay/Bisexual, but Reggie was straight - so tagging Reggie as LGBT is fatually incorrect. Having placed the correct date of birth/death tags on each feeder, plus the LGBT tag on Ronnie's feeding page, the three pages that make up the Krays (the two blank feeding pages on Ron/Reg which just contain categories) and this article are now correctly catergorised. Rgds, - Trident13 09:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, but the article covers both people, so untagging it is as inaccurate as tagging it. AND, the article I referenced (and you removed) quotes Reg's gay lover from prison, so ... anyway, I'm no Kray expert, so I'll leave it. However, you can't have categories on redirects (I removed them from Reginald Kray and Ronald Kray yesterday). You can certainly put them back but someone else will probably remove them at some point without you noticing. I'm readding them to this article until you can find a solution. I understand that two separate articles is probably a waste. TAnthony 14:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
After a bit of research, I'm with the sub articles idea - at least for Ronnie. Appologies for reverting your previous edits, but as the section you renamed "Criminology and Sexuality" was already tagged sources, and as you didn't add anything, I rv'd it back. OK, here's the logic - Firstly, the article still needs a lot of development; secondly, exploration of Ronnie's motivation needs a bit more exploration: the bio I skim read in the library this afternoon certainly has a lot of psycotic/murder/sexuality discussion in it. Thirdly, the factual tagging of Reg is incorrect at present, and the present "sole article" structure doesn't allow for different dates/causes of death. Thoughts? The stub you placed on my talk page would seem a good start, we write a similar for both brothers and keep the crime issues/chronology of it here? Best Regards, --Trident13 18:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the content of this article and Reg's sexuality, I'll leave that to you and the experts; I suppose many a straight person has had a "gay lover" in prison, LOL. As far as the stubs, I don't know how they will be received in general, but it seems the only way to keep the categories separate without splitting this article itself) which would make two largely redundant articles, I'm sure). We can just add "hidden" edit notes that the stubs not be expanded. TAnthony 18:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tower of London

Another article on Tower_of_London states that the brothers were held there for a few days in 1952, and that they were the last prisoners there. Shouldn't that be mentioned in this article? LinuxSneaker 15:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sensationalism

I deleted driving it deep into his neck, twisting the blade as this is not needed in an encylopedic article, it is just sensationalism. Sue Wallace 18:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Kindly replace it - it is a verbatim (sourced) quote from a witness statement given to Leonard Read and also given as sworn testimony against Reg Kray. Thank you. Lion King 18:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not disputing that it is accurate, but is it needed here do you think? Sue Wallace 18:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Absolultely, because as you say it is accurate the one thing that an encyclopedia must be. You can't water down this horrific senseless murder. Cheers, Lion King 18:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok I've re-added it, if you want it in that much.... anyway, I think I'm gonna create some articles for the books I've just added, so they're not red links. Take care. Sue Wallace 19:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Take care yourself, Lion King 19:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You tube links removed

4 links removed - Tv Footage - no indication from clip information or respective Uploader profiles, that uploader have rights to the footage or are associated with the TV companies/production entities responsible for it. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish or other immigrant ancestry?

Did the Kray brothers really have all the non-English ancestry stated in the article? This family tree, from a usually reliable site, goes over most of their recent ancestors and they're all English (and all married in Protestant churches). All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 09:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I recall reading in one of Reggie Krays books that they did have Romany and Jewish ancestry but it was pretty distant. Sue Wallace (talk) 16:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bisexual/Gay continuity

In the opening paragraph, Ronnie is referred to as bisexual, while in the later imprisonment section he is called homosexual. Is this a continuity error, or is there confusion/debate about the nature of his sexuality? Or perhaps there's no distinction in vernacular British English between bisexual and homosexual? There's most certainly a distinction in the States between the two, so the article seems to disagree with itself. Suggestions?

Diyforlife (talk) 01:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)