Talk:Krautrock

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[edit] Such hopeless tripe

You know, all you really have to do is look at the list of artists on the page to see what an utterly meaningless term it is to start with. There are countless instances, in that list alone, of artists whose ONLY similar characteristic is the country they are from, and the time period in which they were active. It's purely a journalistic wank word, and 98% of the people who would ever use it probably have, at best, extremely sketchy knowledge of most of the artists they're using it in conjunction with to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.241.14.151 (talk) 00:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Predecessor to Neue Deutsche Härte?

From what's been written, it seems that Krautrock is an important predecessor and influence of Neue Deutsche Härte, most known by Rammstein, Megaherz, Eisbrecher and Oomph! and so if it is, it should definately be mentioned, no?

Hmmm, not sure about that. Maybe you could trace ie Rammstein back to Krautrock, but that would be quite a few stops down the road. I'd say heavy metal would be a more important and important influence there. Krautrock has been an important influence on a lot of modern "experimental music", though. For example, I think it's safe to say that the whole post-rock explosion would've been rather different or maybe even non-existent without krautrock. Kruka 12:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wilco

I think that on their last two CD's Wilco has definetly been showing a Krautrock influence with those freaky drones and songs like Spiders(Kidsmoke) so I'm gonna put something about that down there if you all are cool with it.

I disagree-It doesn't strike me as krautrock-esque at all. At anyrate, if they don't acknowledge the Krautrock influence, it's unfair to pin them with it.-FeralCats

I disagree,too: "freaky drones" are not relevant to "krautrock" (only). skysurfer 16:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Certainly not, there are numerous other genres of music that use such structures and devices as Wilco. The difference is that They have acknowledged it, though, in many interviews Jeff Tweedy has stated that bands like Neu and etc. have influenced their later records. Plus, their last two cd's were produced and mixed by Jim O'Rourke, who has worked with the Krautrock band Faust. They are constantly compared to krautrock bands in reviews as well.The Guilty Undertaker 18:30, 27 July 2006

In a short blip commending "Kicking Television", Q Magazine describes Spiders (Kidsmoke) as "chugging Krautrock". --Mavsandmacs 23:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Musicians listening to old krautrock records an incorporating isolated ideas from it into their own music does not make their bands or music krautrock. Were it so, it would also be true that all rock music is blues. Kruka 12:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging-renaming issues

The proper name for this article is German rock . Brian W

Like other people mention here and in the german rock articles: krautrock is not "german rock", a merger is really out of the question imho.

What people. Whom are you mentioninh, sorry? I'll show you all, step by step,subtly, that electronic music almost ended in 1970s, and that ambient is ONLY Eno, Fripp, Hassell, and so on. Consistency and honesty. Brian W 02:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

How about Julian Cope to start with: "Krautrock was not played by just any old early '70s German rock band." Kaldari 02:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Of course it wasn't, Krautrock was maybe the German form of prog rock, though we all know that there were many difference. Julian Cope reintroduced the term recently, it was forgotten before. I have here some Q magazine issues that refers to such artists as electronic musicians, and nothing else.
What are you babbling about electronic music and ambient. This article is about krautrock in the first place, not electronic music or ambient music. An existing name for a sort of music; not the same as german rock (you simply can't put rammstein or the scorpions under krautrock). People have split this article off for a reason; who cares what your magazine talks about, the article describes what the term means today, and it does it well.

[edit] Lack of citation

Can people stop adding silly templates in the article. How crazy is this to ask for a citation when the entire article gives an explanation of the term. Instead of placing silly templates, people might try reading ALL information available on the subject, from international sites, to german sites, to Krautrocksampler, even the track "krautrock" by Faust. How could this possibly a POV claim, it's merely a simple observation of all documentation and references available. What's next, asking for citations for the rock music article because it states The genre of rock is broad, and its boundaries loosely-defined ? --LimoWreck 18:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess that such editors would like to argue/discuss about the point that the word "krautrock" is still offensive in Germany. Quoting that Faust song is of no relevance, becouse maybe their purpose was just self-sarcasm, but I'm not sure. Actually in this context it's not even clear whether krautrock is a style within electronic music or within progressive rock.--Doktor Who 18:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • about the genres: It doesn't have to be clear "what genre it is in" ;-); why do people always want to put general genres, styles, (or whatever you call it) in small boxes. It's draws from both general genres, much of the music fits in both, and fans have interests in both genres,... or none... Some bands will be related with jazzrock.
  • about the word: The word is used extensively in german too, de:Krautrock to do some self-reference ;-) and people like Martin Pruckner use the word in his extensive famous german rock site [1] ;-) I have never read a german text where the name is seen as offensive, rather there too it is accepted as the name to distinguish their own charateristic style of 70s rock. Eg. [2] or [3]; they take no offence at the word, the opposite is true. --LimoWreck 19:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, all that is good. Btw, which templates are you referring to? I mean, do you dislike music genres infoboxes? To me Krautrock is a fusion-style of prog rock and electronic "art" music, so templates should be different, imho. --Doktor Who 19:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I was referring to the {{fact}} template (resulting in [citation needed]). I can't see how a citation is needed. That's really redundant ;-) --LimoWreck 20:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Read WP:CITE. You cannot make massively POV statements like "the term "krautrock" is now generally seen as an accolade rather than an insult" without backing it up with a citation. If there is so much evidence to support that statement why do you refuse to provide the requested citation. If you do not know how to provide references, read WP:CITE and associated pages. Until you do, I am adding the POV tag to this article. --Mais oui! 22:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a rediculous argument. I'm sure it would be quite easy to find a refernce to back up your statement, Limowreck. As soon as I get home, I'll look though the relevent books and magazine articles and find something to use. Let the template stand until then. Kaldari 23:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree is ridiculous. The entire article explains what it is about. There's nothing POV about it; it's silly to use an ugly citation to PROVE what the term is used for. Are we going to use citations to PROVE what the word rock music is used for too? Come on, get real. People that don't understand what POV is don't need to insert crazy templates either. "Proving" this phrase is insane, as the ONLY meaning of the word krautrock is simply its use as an accolade for the entire style --LimoWreck 23:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Some references:

  • Moline, Keith. "Faust Impressions", The Wire, May 2005. : "In a sly reference to the controversial implications of the term Krautrock, he reclaims the word by presenting the track of the same name as a 'hotch potch of scenes just like sauerkraut'."
  • "Mondo Sonora Interview with Jochen Irmler", Mondo Sonora, November 2002. : "The way I see it, the term 'Krautrock' was invented by British music journalists to get a sort of label for rock music that came out of Germany at that time. Later, this term was given another perspective by the writings of people like Julian Cope and the like, who seemed to see something mystic in Krautrock."
  • Miles, Milo. "German Rockers Who Foretold the Future", New York Times, May 6, 2001. : "Neu! is also the most minimalist-punk expression of the old experimental German mode known affectionately by its fans and performers as Krautrock, however derogatory the term might seem to others."

See how easy that was! There's no need to get so defensive about referencing things. Kaldari 00:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Now all you need to do is include the references in the article, per WP:CITE. --Mais oui! 00:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
By the way, only the third one there even remotely supports the strongly POV statement made in the article. --Mais oui! 00:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think the second and third ones, taken together, would do a decent job of backing up the statements in the intro paragraph. If you can suggest some rewording of the paragraph to more closely match the citations, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Kaldari 00:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Why in Italy, for example, I've never heard the term krautrock? And why in old magazines in English, such as an issue of Q dated early 1990s, they refer to this kind of music simply as electronic music (sometimes german electronic music)? These are just questions, I really do not want to go beyond this, but I'd be grateful if someone may provide me with some reasonabble answers.--Doktor Who 02:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Before the mid-1990s (when the popularity of post-rock spawned a flurry of interest in Krautrock, its ideological predecessor), Krautrock was extremely obscure (at least outside of Germany and Britain). It may still be quite obscure in many countries. Kaldari 03:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Q is a British magazine, also I used to read many others. Furthermore, I used to be familiar with a lot of people from every side of Earth, sharing my interest for music: never heard such a word, though Tangerine Dream , Kraftwerk, Cluster, Neu!, Can were and are well known almost everywhere, cos along the 1990s we had the so called new age listeners. I believe that the term was just invented by journalists, and that in the real world, including musicians, none really use it. The word electronic music is more than enough.--Doktor Who 17:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all, it's not strictly a narrow genre, as it may contain psychedelic, electronic, experimantal, progressive, jazz-fusion, etc... music. Electronic music is a label that doesn't work for krautrock.... bands like Amon Düül, 2066 & Then, Agitation Free, Birth Control, Thirsty Moon can't be labelled electronic at all, although they are placed under the general "krautrock" label. The reason you might not have heard of it in populair media, is because it's not populair music at all. It wasn't really populair in the 70s; today it's 30 decades old so those bands and records won't suddenly appear in mainstream. However, in the 90s, there was new interest in those german bands from that era, creating a sort of "krautrock" scene decades later... or something like that ;-) --LimoWreck 17:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
This is the introduction of Néosphère for "Krautrock": Le terme "Krautrock" a été inventé par la presse anglaise, vers 1972, pour désigner la vague de groupes allemands apparus à cette époque. S'émancipant des modèles anglo-américains, ces groupes créent une fusion jazz-rock / rock progressif / musiques ethniques (Amon Düül II, Agitation Free, Popol Vuh…), d'autres s'inscrivent en pionniers des musiques synthétiques et électroniques (Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Kraftwerk, Cluster…), et, d'autres encore, jettent les bases d'une sorte de Post-Rock avant l'heure (CAN, Faust, Neu!...). Petit historique de ce rock planant et expérimental allemand.. Like you can see, the electronics, moogs and synthisizer are just elements used by some of the artists. --LimoWreck 17:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Bearing in mind the tenuous definition of this genre, I propose that it ought to be made a Redirect to electronic music, and any useful material incorporated there. --Mais oui! 17:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Now that would be plain destruction of information of a well known valid term. Or maybe you're just blind for the millions of uses on the internet [4] --LimoWreck 17:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
A simple redirect is not a good idea.--Doktor Who 18:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid Krautrock does not equal electronic music. For example, only the first 3 albums of Kraftwerk are considered "Krautrock" and only the first 4 albums of Tangerine Dream. Krautrock was more of a musical scene than a genre, per se. That is, it involved certain labels, producers, venues, and bands over a period of about 5-8 years. The fact that it involved electronics is somewhat perhipheral. Kaldari 18:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The use of electronics is one of the most important features in the music scene we are talking about, Can were founded by two former pupils of Karlheinz Stockhausen, and Popol Vuh released in 1970 an album that predates ambient music, new age music and world music of several years, just listen to it, in my humble opinion, Pink Floyd albums of the same period (More, Ummagumma, Atom Hearth Mother), sound a bit outdated as of today, instead Affenstunde is still a "modern-avant-garde" and enjoyable album. Can someone please stop me to write and discuss about music genres? It would take 1 year to fix all the incorrect info that I'm finding here on Wikipedia; just some minutes ago I read some lines at Timeline of trends in music (1970-1979) and I noticed a number of info to fix, not mentioning various articles regarding Jazz that should be rewritten. Stop.--Doktor Who 23:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC).
I agree use of electronics is an important feature of Krautrock, although I don't think that is what defined Krautrock, as it seems Mais oui is trying to say. Many important Krautrock albums involved little or no electronics. Amon Düül I, Amon Düül II, Ash Ra Temple, Agitation Free, and all the other Krautrock bands that started with "A" were not involved in electronic music, and would more likely be classified as prog rock, although they are all definitely considered Krautrock. Personally, I wouldn't even call Krautrock a "genre" as it has more to do with a particular artistic scene than a definitive sound or instumentation. Kaldari 00:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
AAARGH! ?! "....Amon Düül II, Ash Ra Temple... [...] were not involved in electronic music"  ????
What did you mean exactly? THey made an extensive use of synths, echoes, spacey atmosphears (Ash Ra Temple), so if this is not electronic music.... though Amon Düül II in many cases just can be seen as psychedelich with electronic instrumentation.Dr. Who 23:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I suppose it all depends on your definition of "electronic music". Kaldari 00:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I suppose it all depends on your definition of "electronic music". Dr. Who 00:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I forgot that n the opinion of Wikipedians, AllMusicguide, and Discogs, Electronic music is ONLY the music performed/recorded by mean of PC running Win 98 (and following releases of Win), preferably aimed to be played in chill out rooms or even dancefloors. If that was true even in real world...... Cheers :-) . Dr. Who 00:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Enough facts are cited, the rest is trivial, the external links section provide most the important references on-line. As references are present, useless tag is removed. (Hey, maybe we should at the template on top of the Wikipedia, World of whatever articles, I'm sure there can be 50 more references in that articles, right ?). --LimoWreck 17:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
There are numerous other sentences that need citations. Several sections sound like original research or even apocryphal. I have marked the sentences that I believe need citations. At least knock a couple of them out before removing the template, please. Kaldari 23:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early 1970s?

Monster Movie was released in 1969 so why does the first line say Krautrock bands appeared(? I didn't realise bands simply appeared, maybe just Krautrock ones) in the early 1970s? Maybe getting a few simple facts ironed out should be priority instead of more involved questions like "Is it rude to use the term Krautrock?" BTW according to Stuart Marconie and Julian Cope on the BBC Radio 6 Freak Zone German Music special it is! Maybe thats why Krautrock Sampler is never going to be back in print--KaptKos 11:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] One Small Mistake

All I will say is that it is incorrect to say that Krautrock is mostly instrumental. CAN, Neu!, and Amon Duul, three of the major bands of the genre, were anything but.

Ahem. I could probably fit the wholy lyrics of NEU! on the back of a beer mat. Your statement made me put on Can's "Tago Mago" and while there's a lot of voice, it's mostly "Ah-ah-ah" and and "Ah-oh-uh", that is, voice used as an instrument rather than as a means to convey lyrics. It's quite some time since my last encounter with Amon Düül (I don't even own any of their records myself) but IIRC there were few if no lyrics as well. Now does "voice but no words" still count as instrumental or not? --83.171.182.195 20:01, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, maybe it's just the choice of words here. Maybe Krautrock isn't "mostly instrumental", but rather that instrumental tracks are vastly more common in Krautrock than in most other rock genres(Not counting post-rock, of course). I mean.. Neu! is mostly instrumental, while say.. Amon Düül II mostly isn't. Kruka 12:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

German wikipedia points out that Faust had a track on Faust IV called "Krautrock". Secretlondon 14:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Steps to the future

Why Krautrock is tagged as an electronic genre? There is much in early albums by Faust, Ash Ra Tempel, Guru Guru that isn't electronic at all; such works are late-psychedelick rock/early-prog rock. Krautrock is a part of progressive rock, in other terms it's the German scene of prog rock, featuring its own styles, that focused on rhythms and atmospheres, unlike British style, that was strongly informed by blues and symphonic music.

Arguably, in a NEU! work, you can listen to both Pink Floyd and Sex Pistols. :D

Kraftwerk were likely the most consistent form of electronic style with less inlfluence from other contexts, The so called cosmic couriers, whose styles are referred to also as Kosmische musik, despite in some cases overlapped the same scene, featured a really different kind of music, Tangerine Dream and K. Scultze wre both electronic and spacey, Popol Vuh crossed the borders between space musi, world music and new age. This article deserves, needs further improvements.Doktor Who 00:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic slurs

I have toned down the section on the origin of the name "krautrock" somewhat. It seemed to be to be giving a rather histrionic tone, implying the name was an act of dastardly racism. This has never been my understanding, I believe it more to be no more than mildly disparaging, with a younger generation taking hold of one of the insult's of their parents from WWII, and reappropriating it in the sphere of rock (as the german musicians themselves were doing). It ought to be possible to get some citations from the UK music press of the time, identifying where the term was first coined and the intention behind it. Any editors able to help with this?--feline1 16:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

it's not (directly) uk-related, but i have recordings of WFMU dj fabio using the term in the early 90s
well that's about 20 years after the term was coined, so it's not much use! --feline1 (talk) 10:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. The music is so good and the bands involved so proven by history that the term now is one of reverence. Time is fluid, people. Whatever the original intent, the term 'Krautrock' now is embraced by musicologists (a term I just invented). Anyway, Germans are hardly sensitive to slurs of any kind --- they're tough enough not to care, intelligent enough to know that they are meaningless and arrogant enough to sneer down at them.--137.186.251.55 (talk) 23:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Any important bands from Austria or Switzerland?

The heartland of krautrock was of course West Germany. The article also mentions East Germany (DDR). But what about the german speaking countries Austria and Switzerland? Did they have any such scene? And did it emerge any important bands from there? It would be strange if not. These countries are very strongly connected to Germany culturally.

~~Glux Riffa~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.86.36 (talk) 23:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

One word - one very important word : Brainticket. You're welcome.