Talk:Krajina, Montenegro

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[edit] Contributions

This Page was made by Ismet Kollari, March 15th 2006, New York. If you would like to ADD any pictures, Family names, Villages...etc please contact me at livaritrading@yahoo.com

Ismet, I thank you for your contribution here in Wikipedia. Anyone is free to add pictures and text here, so sorry to let you know that you are not the only one responsible, even if you founded this page. Feel free to contribute with more. I would do the same, if I had any info. I advise you to remove your email here, though, as you may get spammed. Greetings, ilir_pz 22:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing

Like I said, I was under impression that this article is about fictive Albanian republic in southern Montenegro, rather than about a village/area in Ulcinj municipality whose existence I can't even verify by Google. When I found http://krajaweb.online.fr/, it is still unclear. Is it Albanian term for Southern Montenegro or what? Could someone at least get the facts straight? Thanks. Duja 10:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a rather new article, Duja. Hence, it is a bit confusing as of now. Hopefully those with more knowledge on it they will improve it. I know that is not an Albanian term for Southern Montenegro. It is a small town, only. ilir_pz 10:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Look, I don't have anything against describing more about Albanian population in Montenegro, but I don't think that village of Kraje even exists as such. Do you see anything resembling it in the map? Apart from Wikipedia and its mirrors and krajaweb.online.fr, it seems to have zero Google hits (hard to tell as "Ulcinj Kraja" gives many Serbian words "kraja" within, but it's not on first 5 pages), and the name ("Krajina") is suspicious as well.Duja 10:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you can email the guy who created it at first. He seems to be from that town. I haven't been to this location, but I have heard of it, and I thought it exists somewhere close to Ulqin. Yes, "Krajina" name sounded weird to me, but maybe he did not mean it to sound like "Srpska Krajina" or something. My guess is, it might be too small a town to be registered in the map. Or maybe it is a small village, and not a town. I really do not know more. I will ask around. ilir_pz 10:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


(moved from the main page) This page was made by Ismet Kollari March 15th 2006, If you would like to add anything please contact Livaritrading@yahoo.com


Im unsure why this is an issue? this is an article i put up about my backround and i collected all the information i could to do it. Why is this an issue if i stamp my signature on it? I did all the work and put it up, why would complain about me putting a stamp on my work? does this affect you in any way? i dont think so. Its not a big deal - Ljare

You can sign your contributions, by registering with an account, and editing once you logged in. Then it will be clear who edited what. Please ask for help if you need any, would gladly help. Regards, ilir_pz 18:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
It is a big deal. This is not a free web space site, but an free encyclopedia, where all contributors are supposed to colaborate, and release their right under GNU Free Documentation License. And it has its policies and guidelines. No one signs the articles here, so you shouldn't either. See WP:OWN and WP:NOT. Duja 09:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
You still did not address the issues I raised above—who had pronounced that Kraja is "a town and municipality", where it is located on the map, and in which sense it even exists. I'm inclined to merge this article into Albanians in Montenegro, but I want to be fair and provide you a chance to clarify what was the intent. Duja 09:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


A Big Deal? Are you serious? how old are you like 35 and you actully think this is a big deal? All i am trying to do is put up some information about MY culture, I do not have to be questioned by you. Why are you even looking at this page? are you even Albanian? Listen this is something i choose to do and i want to leave it how it is why are you interfearing? This has nothing to do with you.

P.S Montenegro is no longer (AND NEVER WAS PART OF SERBIA!). So please stick to correcting articles from serbia.

    • Kinda contradictory don't you think? "No longer", but "never was"? :) C-c-c-c 22:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Articles here don't have owners – see the policy. This site has certain rules. We are all free to edit whatever we want, but we have to obey the policies, which include verifiability and neutral point of view among other things. This is not a free web space where anyone can put anything he likes—it is meant to be used for reference by people other than ourselves. It does have to do it with me like any other article (as it does have with you). I am very concerned, not because I'm a Serb or something, but because I want this encyclopedia to be trustable and accurate, that you have put factually incorrect information. I requested that you (or anyone else) clarify how is Kraja "a town and municipality" and where is it located on the map. I'm still waiting for the answer. Duja 14:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Number 1 you are not waiting for answer's because if this is a free encylopedia this is pubic to EVERYONE no one has to answer you. I already attempted to Clarify that KRAJA is a DIVISION of BAR (TIVARI) that once belonged to albania Treaty of Berlin, 1878. This is absouluty ridiculous I know my facts you have no knowledge on this topic once so ever, I know you would love to say that this is a part of Serbia but its not its a part of Montenegro and will one day be part of Albania again. So please refrain.-Ismet Kollari

"Pubic to everyone?" Sounds like a Clintonian Slip:P[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
So, since I'm a Serb, I'm by default an enemy and a hegemonist? I'm afraid that tells more about your state of mind than about myself. Good bye. Duja 17:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Kollari, please consider explaining this information, and providing any source that you have, without judging users about their orientation: nationalistic, hegemonistic, and such. And yes, it is advisable that you read the policies, and not claim to own the article. Also putting your email might create spam in your mailbox. Regards, ilir_pz 18:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to make a fair proposal: let's merge valuable contents of this page to Albanians in Montenegro. I'm not familiar with the area, but even the usage of word "Kraja" sounds suspicious — do Albanians there really call the area like that, or is that some kind of irredentism like Republic of Serbian Krajina was at the time?
As for the hints to revisionism in this article and article Tuzi: Albanians in Montenegro#History section is currently empty. You're welcome to explain there what happened in Berlin Congress 1878 and Treaty of London, 1913 and how and why the Albanian population of the area ended up from this side of the border, instead of linking to external sites of dubious credibility. I'd like to read more about that myself. Duja 11:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
No, Duja, I do not think this article should be merged with Albanians in Montenegro article, because this is a description of a geographic area, which is not at all of any irredentism in nature. I knew that you would suspect it being so, because of the translation in Serbian "Krajina". I agree that parts on the History of Albanians in Montenegro should be clarified. I will try to edit that part soon, and I would also like to read about that myself. Let me know if you find any (credible and not one-sided) sources on that. TTYL.ilir_pz 14:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I won't persist on deletion, but no evidence whatsoever was presented about existence of that geographic area. I mean, the area obviously does exist, but no credible source was cited that it's really called like that. Duja 15:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
maybe it is better to wait/search~/request for credible sources on this geographic area, then just delete it. ilir_pz 16:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


Look, Like I said there is no better way to explain it but like this. Kraja (NOT Krajina)is a DIVISON of BAR (ANTIVARI)As Albanians we call it Kraje and refer ourselves as Krajan's. Let me give you an example : AMERICA= MONTENEGRO NEW YORK= TIVAR STATEN ISLAND= KRAJA Im trying to explain to you that KRAJA is a DIVISION of BAR similar to Ana e Malit and Zogaj. If you cannot understand it now, I think you may need to further your education by going back to school. There is no reason this article should be colaborated with Albanians in Montenegero (It can be Linked thats ok) But it shouldnt be mixed up with any other article's. Listen There are aticle's on wikipedia that are on for no reason about stuff people dont care about, This article that i put up is not hurting anyone and all the information is accurate its not like I am bashing anyone or saying KRAJA is superior to other parts of Montenegro. Honestly i really want to agree and fix the page and update it. If your not going to alow me to do this then i just have to work around it and make more pages about similar article's and about the same exact exact info. But what is still pondering in my head is that why on earth If you live in (Novi Sad, SERBIA) why do you care about KRAJA?

Here is proff that these albanian communities exist in Montenegro

http://www.aacl.com/Montenegro_Apartheid_State_In_Europe.htm

http://lantos.house.gov/HoR/CA12/Human+Rights+Caucus/Briefing+Testimonies/Shirley+A+Cloyes.htm

http://www.aacl.com/reflecting_on_the_history_eng.htm

http://www.aacl.com/Flag%20Day-E.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Albanian_Vilayets_of_Ottoman_Empire.jpg

( Look at this map of Montenegro, Look at the Rumija section near Shkoder lake, This is were Kraja-Shestan lies. Livari, Bobosht, Arbnez all Villages of KRAJA!)

http://www.jazztour.ru/images/montenegro/montenegro_map_new.jpg

Have Fun doing all this Homework.

-Ismet Kollari

I care about an Albanian propagandist site as much as I care about Serbian propagandist sites. You provided a nice collection of links irrelevant to the subject of the area, and related with Albanians in Montenegro#History and History of Montenegro. None of the above links mention "Kraja" I found the map about Kraja you refer to myself, as well as freeweb.kraja.fr.
Should I analyse the article section by section? Here we go:
  • mainly Albanian inhabited coastal town and municipality. These words stand here since article creation on March 16. It is obviously not a town, and even less a municipality. If you intended to fix them, you had three months to done so.
Now, let's stick to the data from rumiland.free.fr. It says on the first page that:
Officially, "Rumiland" is an area which does not exist. ... you will not find it on any map (;D). It is a personal invention...
Is that web site yours or...?
  • Tourism: This section is a verbatim copy from Rumiland web site. It refers to Tourism of above-mentioned imaginary Rumiland. According to WP:COPY, you must either supply explicit owner's permission to use the text on Wikipedia or prove that you wrote it yourself (ditto for pictures). In either case, the info is irrelevant, because...
  • Location: The map (so far the only relevant proof) shows that Kraja is actually the area along southern coast of Skadar lake (stretching accross municipalities of Bar and Ulcinj). Why does not the article mention that in a clear way? When I have put the {{confusing}} tag, I put it because I was confused, not because I wanted your work deleted. Instead of clearing things up, you kept on deleting the tags and accusing me.
  • Villages, families. verbatim copy from Rumiland web site.
In summary: the article has the following problems:
  • Scope. If you want to write about Kraja, write about Kraja. Don't write about semi-imaginary Rumiland and tourism in Ulcinj. The place for that is article Ulcinj. If you want to write about bad things that happened in history, there are relevant articles I pointed above.
  • Copyright. Like I said, you cannot use the verbatim copy or pictures from other web sites without owner's permission. It must be rewritten, or, If you're the owner or have his written permission, the notice should be put at the bottom of the article ({{Confirmation}}). The procedure is explained here.
If I wanted to delete this article, I would have vandalized it or proposed for deletion. Instead, I wanted to give you a chance to improve it, and you resorted to personall attacks just because of my ethnicity, and refused to address the issues I raised.
I will request the protection to be lifted, but you ought to address the issues above. Duja 08:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


Ok i appricate that you will have it lifted, But your trying to say Kraja is not a real place, and i already told you it is a division of BAR. There is no reason i am making this up this is a place where i am from. Look i want to try to work together and get this up, I can give you a perfect example. KRAJA is a TOWN exactly like Tuzi. I am a first time user of wikipedia so mabey i didnt follow the rules (Did'nt know how to follow all the rules). But im not here to make personal attacts just i thought comming from a serb be so interested in an albanian community and telling me it wasnt "REAL" was just a little odd. Look the best way i can describe is is look at Tuzi Kraja is the same exact kind of town.

Sorry that unprotection takes a while -- I'm working on it with the admins. Duja 07:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

The article has now been protected to prevent edit-warring. Please use the talk page to discuss changes, and once you have reached an agreement, please drop a note on my talk page or request unprotection. Note that the protected version is not an endorsement of the current version. AmiDaniel (talk) 11:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Can this article be removed from Category:Cities in Serbia and Montenegro? Conscious 09:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
As soon as it's unprotected :-D. Duja 10:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Or earlier, if there's a consensus on this matter. Conscious 10:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Serbia and Montenegro does not exist, Conscious. This should be included in the cities of Montenegro. ilir_pz 11:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotected

Let's give it a try. If it needs to be protected again, let me know, or post a request for protection. AmiDaniel (talk) 20:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems...

1. The Image to the lower is deleted, and

2. How can it be 98% Albanian, when it's divided between Bar and Ulcinj - and Bar is a large Montenegrin/Serbian-populated area. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

...........

Sorry to tell you but Kraje (not Bar) is 98% Albanian i didnt say BAR i said Kraje. Your Welcome.

...........

I honestly don't know how it's even 98% Albanian. I thought it was like 99.99999%. The only non-Albanians I know that actually live in Krajë is this Croatian man and his Serbian wife.

[edit] Cleanup

I cleaned up the entire article. Oh my god, I never saw that much to clean up. WOW!!! Crna tec Gora 23:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Innacurate

First of all, the area between Skadar lake and the coast is called "Krajina". The article, if there is need for one, should be called that way, since the area is in Montenegro! "Ulcinj" article is still "Ulcinj", no matter that Albanians, which are majority there, call it "Ulquin".

Second, who ever took the census for Kraina precisely, so he can post exact figures about demographics?! This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, how can someone post arbitrary data?

Then, in tourism section, the Adriatic coast of Montnegro is described, but Krajina region is not a seaside region - it is the region between Skadar Lake and the Rumija mountain... ?!Nije bitno... 00:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Innacurate

Sorry to tell that the old Serbian communists' propaganda is over. You like it or not, Montenegro is just an artificial country. Maybe hard to believe for you, but Montenegrin race does not exist. Maybe some non Serb Anthropologist could make an intervention here. Montenegrins are Ilirians, just like Albanians. I'm not talking about the recently imported ones.

Whatever you think, Tivar (Bar), Ulqin, Kraja and Shkoder (Skadar) do have their names that are originaly Albanian. Just check some old maps that you can find into the Vaticans' library.

The propaganda time is over, look for the reality. A lot of Montenegros' places do have names that have Albanian origins or meanning. You like it or not, but real Montenegrins are not Slavic people.

Peace !!!

Montenegrins aren't Slavs? Are you joking? Its true that Montenegrins have a lot more common with Albanians than (other) Serbs, but that's as far as it goes - and Albanians' Illyrian origin is just a hypothesis. Those cities have original either Roman, Greek or Illyrian names, not Albanian. Serbia has too a lot Illyrian-origin names of cities, but unlike for the Montenegrins (whome they appearently consider direct descendents), Albanian historians consider Serbs imposters; i.e. that they came later and exiled the ancestral populace - a clear and non-true POV. --PaxEquilibrium 22:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Still innacurate

The man which did not have the decency to sign himself is someone who shouldn't be allowed to edit an encyclopedia. As for the article, it is still catastrophic, as there was no census for Krajina, and there is no sea around Krajina, only the lake.Nije bitno... 23:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kraja and Shestan are albanian towns not Montenegrin

Follow-Up: Listen i made this page there is no need for you to say there is no need for it. It is an encyclopedia the more information the better. You are from podgorica i see, Well i am from BAR (TIVAR) why dont you let me handle my page and you can handle yours. And another thing to clarify, There is no such Krajina in Montenegro! That is in Bosnia. In Montenegro it is called Kraja and Shestan not Krajina and Sestan. Since i started this page in March many Montenegrins (Malazez), Serbs and Croats Tried to take it down and correct it, Are you from Kraja or Shestan? If not then there is no reason for you to alter my page being that i have more information then you on MY TOWN. My family has been part of Montenegro (by way of Albania) for over 250 years and Kraja and Shestan is all albanian despite what these montenegrins say.

-Met Shestani

[edit] First media sighting

I was reading Dan the other day and caught a reference to "Kraina", so this article does seem to have some foundation in reality.[1] // estavisti 13:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ending this controversy

You Serbs and Albanians can't understand anything with the likes of Montenegro.

  • One, the region of Krajë is a geographical and tribal region, and not just a village. It contains many villages.
  • Two, in Montenegrin, and any other language that sprang from Serbo-Croatian, Krajë is called Krajina, and this is a fact. You can ask people in Bar (and Ulcinj, if they can understand the Montenegrin language) about Krajina. This can also be proven here
  • Three, this is an Albanian majority region, which, yes indeed it was, was once a part of Albania before The Treaty of Berlin in 1878.

Ok. Just to clear things up. Crna Gora 21:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I hoped (apparently, wrongly) it was clear from the start (that is, when that was cleared up shortly after I raised my concerns first). The problem is, the only person really interested in this page is Mr. Ismet Kollari; while I appreciate his desire to write about his homeland, he keeps on posting his personal details in the article, adding material lifted from non-GFDL-ed external sites, adding words like "town" and "tourism" section related with Bar and Ulcinj etc. Where it ended up is basically tweaks by other users over the initial substance, still in a pretty bad form. Duja► 11:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stupid argument

This is an encyclopedia, and the more - the better, but there is no such thing as your page on wikipedia - there is accurate and less accurate page. Yours is not very accurate...YOU call it Kraja and Shestan, as I can call Shkodra Skadar, but those regions and towns are called Krajina, Šestan and Shkodra respectively. You might be from Krajina, but all geographic features in Montenegro are officially named in Serbian/Montenegrin, and there is no alternative naming of towns in Albanian, no matter if that town has a 100% Albanian population. As this is an encyclopdia, only official designation, and not someone's wishes, are used. Wake up, this is no Kosovo, nor it is Macedonia, there are 5% Albanians in Motnenegro, and no time soon will there be towns named in Albanian...not in Montenegro.

I personally created the Vrakë article, about the village in Albania which has Montenegrin ethnic majority...but I never called it "Vraka", as Montenegrins call it, despite it has almost 100% Montenegrin population...—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nije bitno... (talk • contribs)

Excuse me, but who are you arguing with?

Duja► 16:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)