Talk:Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek

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Almost every sentence in this article is POV and unverifiable, or open to dispute. Evertype 00:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

That is not true. It is disgraceful that you make these accusations without providing any evidence for them. Your assertions are themselves POV. You are trying to discredit this article because it does not tally with the unfounded and sometimes bizarre notions you have about the Cornish language and the organisations that support it. That is not acceptable.

No, what I mean is that this text is not in any way encyclopaedic. The text reads like it came right off a membership brochure. It's not neutral in tone, and therefore POV, and not encyclopaedic. But it's disgraceful to mention it? You guys really don't like me, I know that. But I didn't say what I said lightly. Evertype

It's disgraceful that you make these accusations without substantiating them, and you've just done it again. You never, ever, present any evidence for the nonsense you spout about the Cornish language and the groups that support it. You simply label anything that does not support your distorted view 'POV', 'unverifiable', 'open to dispute' - and, now that I've put the record straight, 'not encyclopaedic'. Branvras

Everything in the article can be substantiated, as follows:

Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek (The Cornish Language Fellowship) is a Cornish language association which exists to promote, encourage and foster the use of the Cornish language. This is written into the constitution of the Kowethas.

Oughtn't it say so? Evertype

Not really. How many other organisations here have to quote from their constitution in order to 'prove' what their aims are? This is only becoming necessary - and boring - because you feel compelled to challenge anything that does not agree with your own singular, and distorted, view of the situation. Branvras

Unlike other Cornish language organisations, Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek recognises the validity of all forms of revived Cornish, and membership is open to all. Kowethas members use all forms of Cornish. Nobody has ever had membership refused or cancelled, on any grounds.

"Unlike other Cornish language organisations" is POV and deprecating of other organizations.

Evertype

No evidence, as usual. Just your opinion. The above statement is not POV - it is a fact. The Kesva openly supports Kemmyn. Cussel openly supports Late Cornish. Agan Tavas only supports "any form of revived Cornish based on orthography used by Cornish people at any time in the history of the language. It opposes the use of invented forms of the language which lack any historical authenticity". What other Cornish language organisations are there? It is not deprecating of other organisations unless you believe those organisations should be more open to other forms of Cornish - but that would be your belief, and POV. Branvras

Nevertheless, although its members use all forms of Cornish, the society has long been associated by many with a particular spelling system called Kernewek Kemmyn. It is associated with Kernewek Kemmyn because the vast majority of its members use Kemmyn, including all members of its committee, who themselves are elected by the membership.

Yes, well, that's self-fulfilling, ennit? Lots of people won't join the Cowethas [sic] because it is seen as biased toward a variety of Cornish orthography which is unacceptable to them. Evertype

What does that prove, exactly? You want every Wikipedia article about an organisation to say "some people won't join this organisation because they think its members are biased in some way"? What a nonsense. Lots of people that don't use Kemmyn *have* joined the Kowethas, as the membership survey proved. But the point is, what the article says is factually correct, not POV, not open to dispute. Branvras

As a result, Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek received a boost in its membership after 1987 when The Cornish Language Board itself adopted, and declared its support for, Kernewek Kemmyn. It received a further boost when Paul Dunbar and Ken George claimed in their book Cornish for the 21st Century, published in 1997, that criticisms of this system were without foundation, as by that time Kernewek Kemmyn was very widely used - a large majority of people sitting examinations in the Cornish language were choosing to be examined in Kernewek Kemmyn. Membership figures and exam statistics show this to be true. Membership figures have been in the public domain but are difficult to find (past copies of An Gannas and Kowethas AGM minutes). Exam statistics have not been in the public domain, but the Examinations Officer of the Cornish Language Board, who uses Unified rather than Kemmyn and is therefore unlikely to be biased, has confirmed that a majority has been choosing to be examined in Kemmyn for many years now. We could probably get a statement from her for this article if it really had to come to that.

The "further boost" bit leading into praise of that appalling book, and its unsubstantiated claim to refuting criticisms of Kernowek Kemyn, is wa-a-ay POV. It also looks like it's cogged off the Agan Tavas article; that organization did increase in membership after Cornish Today was published. Evertype

No evidence from you as usual. Just make the statement that a Kowethas 'membership boost' is POV, whereas in your distorted world an Agan Tavas 'membership boost' is a matter of fact. Pathetic. Oh, and while we're having a POV rant let's mention that 'appalling book' and its unsubstantiated claims. For me, that's Cornish Today. For you that's Cornish for the 21st Century. Both views are POV, including yours. As well you know. Branvras

Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek respects the rights of its members to use whichever form of Cornish they choose, although its written business is conducted in Kernewek Kemmyn because that is the form used by the majority of its members. The latter statement is confirmed by results of the survey the Kowethas held of its members in late 2005.

It's a Kemyn organization, and not representative of "all varieties of Cornish". This is POV pretending it's otherwise. Evertype

Rubbish. No evidence from you as usual. The survey of its members shows that those members use all forms of Cornish. The right to use whatever form a member wishes to use is respected. Nobody gets shunned because of the form they use. Kemmyn is used in written business because that's what the vast majority use, not as a means of being disrespectful. The article is factually correct in what it says, and is not POV at all. Branvras

Every month the society publishes a Cornish Language magazine called An Gannas which consists of articles, stories, news, comment and puzzles. This is in the public domain.

I stand corrected. Evertype

Publishing is an important aspect of the work of the society. Amongst the variety of materials that have been produced are books, diaries, stories and language learning materials. Books with accompanying tapes and CDs are also published to assist beginners. The society also produces tea-towels, mugs, car stickers, pens, cards, T-shirts and other items for sale, all displaying the Cornish language. During the year the society organises a number of language days, often supported by Cornish music or dancing, giving Cornish speakers the opportunity of meeting together in a Cornish speaking environment. Beginners are, of course, made very welcome too! Publications could be listed in the main article, if necessary, as could dates of the various language days. Perhaps photos of some mugs or tea-towels might suffice for the truly sceptical.

Nevertheless the tone of this is right out of a membership brochure. It's not encyclopaedic. Evertype

It simply lists what the Kowethas does. That is encyclopaedic. Perhaps the sentence starting "Beginners" should be taken out. Perhaps you could edit this paragraph to keep the information intact but make it more palatable to your exacting standards of encyclopaedicity. Branvras

For many people the highlight of the year is a fully residential weekend, the Pennseythun Gernewek, held usually around Easter time. Cornish speakers of any ability, including complete beginners are very welcome. Other social activities include guided walks, Yeth an Werin (a chance for a chat in Kernewek, usually held in a local pub) and Dydhyow Lowender (fun days where all events are organised in Cornish). Dates for all of these can be provided on request.

As above. Evertype

As above. Branvras

The Kowethas offers a free advice and information service to any individual or organisation on any aspect of language including history, study, family and place names, naming children, streets, houses, boats or pets in Cornish, translation and the use of Cornish in business names and advertising. Examples can be listed in the article.

That would make it more encyclopaedic. As would information about its history when it was the Cowethas [sic]. Evertype

Will get some data. Not sure there is much information to be found about the organisation when it was the Cowethas - it was so long ago. Perhaps you have some contacts that could furnish some? Branvras

The society is closely associated with the running of Cornish classes throughout Cornwall and beyond. It maintains links with a wide range of other cutural organisations both in Cornwall and beyond, including language and educational organisations in other Celtic countries. These can be listed in the article if it is felt that is sufficient evidence.

It's got to be made neutral and not like it's cheering for itself. And yes, I have looked at the Agan Tavas article, which is more neutral and more encyclopaedic in style. Evertype

The only reason this article will start to appear as if it is cheering for itself is because you want every sentence substantiated in some way, otherwise you opt for the easy way to undermine anything by saying 'POV, unsubstantiated, open to dispute', without any evidence to support your claim. It is truly disgraceful. It is unacceptale to turn this into the longest article on Wikipedia as more and more evidence has to be stacked up to support the simplest of facts, just in order to counter your distorted beliefs. Branvras

The society is a voluntary body, (charity no. 1065527) and its funding is raised through grants, membership,sales and donations. A check with the Charities Commission will confirm the status of the Kowethas. As for funding, if you have evidence or knowledge that funds are also raised in other ways then by all means add them to the article. Branvras 14:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I hope my comments will help you to improve the article. Evertype 19:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Hardly. Firstly you say the article is 'POV, unverifiable, open to dispute' (no evidence given, of course). So I provide evidence that that is not the case and now the article is 'not encyclopaedic' (no evidence given, of course, just your opinion). And do you know, I would try to improve it if I thought for one moment that your response would be anything other than 'POV, unverifiable, open to dispute, not encyclopaedic' (with absolutely no evidence whatsoever given for such claims, of course). Branvras