Talk:Kostas Novakis

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The politicaly motivated editing misses the whole point of his prominence. He is not prominent for releasing music. He is prominent for releasing ethnic Macedonian music , because Greece's denies an existence of an ethnic Macedonian culture there. Thats the whole point. Moreover the music he recorded is typical for Republic of Macedonia too. Actually its the same music and the same songs are performed in the Republic of Macedonia on a daily basis Dzole 05:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

And he was credited as Костас Новакис on an officialy released CD in Greece Dzole 05:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

He is knwon to express his Ethnic Macedonian origin, so it is inferred that he sings Macedonian, but if clearification is needed, I will change it. Mactruth (talk) 03:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Dzole, I have provided quotes from Kostas and websites which show he is a part of many Ethnic Macedonian organizations (see below), yet because the information is from a Macedonian website, it is regarded as irrelevant while Greek websites are allowed and trustworthy (sarcasm). Mactruth (talk) 22:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] HE IS ETHNIC MACEDONIAN

"I had this really strong wish to give permanence to the songs that my grand mother, and the other grand-mothers from the village used to sing. The observation of the tradition and the Macedonian folklore are in my blood since childhood. I have recordings of about 1.000 songs with an original singing of the elderly inhabitants, and I sang these on the dialect of the Aegean part of Macedonia. This is the first time that a CD, with this kind of music, is published in Greece. We give it to friends in Greece, we sent it to Australia and Canada, and it is played on the local radio stations – says Kostas." from: http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=3103 Mactruth (talk) 23:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

"My wife is a Grecian, but she managed to learn our songs. Together we work as dentists and we sing together – says Kostas" Mactruth (talk) 23:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

In a Greek context, Macedonian folklore doesn't mean what you think it does. Have a read of Macedonia (terminology) if you're still confused. Believe it or not, one can be Slavophone, Macedonian and Greek all at the same time. In fact, that's how most Slav-speakers in Greece identify. As for your "source", you'll have to try harder than that. Any translation that uses the word "Grecian", especially in an article written from such a strongly "Macedonian" POV, can hardly be taken seriously. Even so, nowhere does he refer to his "Macedonian" ethnicity or language. I don't see how you can legitimately deduce "Macedonian language" from "the dialect of the Aegean part of Macedonia". It seems to me as if he's bending over backwards to avoid actually naming the language. And something tells me the "Aegean" part was added later by the author(s) of the article. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 08:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Kekrops, you use your own POV to try to make the quotes irrelevant. Those are his quotes, you don't have any documents stating he identifies as a Greek, and those quotes are satisfactory in proving he does identify as an Ethnic Macedonian... "Aegean dialect of Macedonia"... isn't "Aegean" offensive to Greeks? Also... the Greek Macedonian dialect has a dialect of its own? Man o man, you have weak arguments. Mactruth (talk) 21:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I love the double standard, Greek websites are allowed, while Macedonian websites are regarded as irrelevant. Mactruth (talk) 21:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

How about this: http://www.mhrmi.org/news/2003/may_september_e.pdf where is states that Kostas is "a member of the Centre for Macedonian Culture." Centre for Macedonian Culture is an Ethnic Macedonian organization, and Kostas is a member of it... hmm? What must be identify as?! OOOO yea Kekpros I forgot your argument "that is a Macedonian website therefore it is propaganda" typical. Mactruth (talk) 21:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

How about this: http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2002/sonce422/Tekst20.htm where Kostas attended the "Meeting of refugees from Aegean Macedonia." If he did identify as Greek, the mere statement "Aegean Macedonia" would anger him, since Greeks consider it a territorial statement, and surely he would not attend as event "gathered mainly by Aegean Macedonians." Mactruth (talk) 22:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Why do his album covers use Macedonian Cyrillic? BalkanFever 09:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Do they? It looks identical to Bulgarian, Serbian or any other Cyrillic to me (though some of the cursives do denote South Slavdom). No Ѓ's, Ќ's or Ѕ's in sight. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 09:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The cursive means it's not Bulgarian. And they shouldn't have any Cyrillic anyway. The Slavophone Greeks are meant to have a Latin Alphabet, remember? Or they could use inadequate Geek script. Maybe he's just an Aegean Macedonian, which would explain why he went to Trnovo. BalkanFever 09:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, but we until we find a reliable source to confirm it, it stays out. Merely being friendly to or jamming with "ethnic Macedonians" doesn't quite cut it. As for the Slavophone Greeks, they were meant to have a Latin alphabet, but it never happened. We can speculate as to why Novakis chose Cyrillic to transcribe his Slavic dialect. You say it's because he's an "Aegean Macedonian", but maybe he just thought it seemed a more "natural" way to write Slavic, or that it would look more exotic in Greek record stores. Who knows? Does anyone have the number of his dental surgery in Koufalia? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 09:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Exotic? Don't you mean offensive? BalkanFever 11:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC):

Why? Thessaloniki is littered with Slavic-language signs. Overwhelmingly Russian, admittedly. Greeks aren't offended by Slavicity; they're offended by the attempt to pass Slavicity off as Macedonicity. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. If anything Greeks have been accused of being too pro-Slav in their support for the Serbs and their close links to Russia. Athens was in the front line to include the Slavic east of Europe into the EU. Because Greeks respect Slav cultures, they are offended when some of their Slavic neighbours in FY/ROM subvert the Slav heritage, and consider it to be an 'insult'. Remember, until 1991, FY/ROM was proud to be considered a Southern Slavic nation (Yugo-Slav). Politis (talk) 14:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

We still are Politis, we just have different views on the issue. We see that before 1913 Macedonia was a wider region, and the division of Macedonia was cursed upon by Macedonians (I have documents of Macedonians condemning the division and asking for immediate unity of the Macedonia region). The problem was Macedonians did not agree that the region should be divided, hence we do not feel that it is our fault that we call our land what it was known as before 1913. Mactruth (talk) 21:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Politis, if Greece was so proud and respectful of Slavic heritage and culture, there would not have been a forced Hellenization, there would not have been population exchanges, there would not have been laws that discriminate against those who claim non-Greek ethnicity. Slavics forced to change their church affiliation, there last names, there language and their street names, yet... "Greeks respect Slav cultures." Mactruth (talk) 22:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This article reads horribly. Honestly, it sounds as if Greeks in Macedonia are a(n unhappy) coincidence with all the references to "Macedonians"/"Macedonian language"/"Aegean part of Macedonia". Just lil' complaining on my part. 3rdAlcove (talk) 04:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, the Eleftherotypia article cited [1] quotes Novakis as explicitly calling the language of his songs "Macedonian" (talking about one of his informants: "... Η ίδια αυτή γυναίκα είχε τραγουδήσει στα νιάτα της, το 1928, τον τελευταίο 'Λάζαρο' που τραγουδήθηκε στο χωριό μου στη μακεδονική.") – "Sti Makedoniki" is clearly being used as a language name here, not as some vague regional identifier, and he's apparently using it without any hedging or scare quotes or anything. I guess that settles it whether using that language name is appropriate for us here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Ill add the source to the article Mactruth (talk) 21:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Re Kekrops ([2]): Your argument is again confusing two questions: "which language?" and "what do we call that language?". The answer to "which language?" is: the one that Wikipedia describes in the article Macedonian language. That's objectively the entity both the Eleftherotypia article and Novakis' quote within it are referring to. That's what Novakis' quote is proof of. It's that language and not Serbian, Bulgarian or some hypothetical phantom "Slavic language (Greece)" supposedly distinct from it. The second question, by what name to refer to it, is exclusively ours to answer. We, along with the overwhelming majority of reliable sources in the English-speaking world, refer to it by its standard name, Macedonian. How the Eleftherotypia article and even how Novakis himself choose to refer to it is immaterial; in that respect, the fact that he actually agrees with our choice is just a side note. There is no reason at all to deviate from our standard English naming practice just because some newspaper article in Greek does so. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe my edits are legitimate in the context of the "traditional music of the Macedonia region", which is by no means sung monolingually. You yourself have proposed the "(Slavic)" disambiguator in other articles, as it doesn't alter the "name of the language". How about doing your job and chasing the really problematic edits like those of the lovely User:Mactruth: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], etc.? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 06:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

How about you not going into trench warfare mode over every single instance of the M word in every single article you encounter, so the rest of us would finally have some time to deal with the likes of the lovely Mactruth? – P.S.: LOL, but those one you just picked out are lovely indeed. Hadn't seen them yet... :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You really must learn to prioritize. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 06:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I have made the issue of history of modern Macedonia clear for a while now without any response. Mactruth (talk) 06:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Please read "Discussion" of each and you will understand why I did that (not out of monopolization or propaganda) Mactruth (talk) 06:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I find it one sided that Kekrops complaints are responded to immediately while my complaints, which are legitimate, have been ignored thus far Mactruth (talk) 06:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)