Talk:Kosovo/Archive 6

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Archived discussions (latest first): Talk:Kosovo/Archive 7 Talk:Kosovo/Archive 6 Talk:Kosovo/Archive 5 Talk:Kosovo/Archive 4 Talk:Kosovo/Archive 3 Talk:Kosovo/Archive 2 Talk:Kosovo/Archive 1

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The Serb: "Ethnic Albanians comprise almost 90% of the population of the province. In the aftermath of the conflict some one thousand non-Albanians, particularly Serbs and Roma either followed Serb soldiers as they withdrew, were forcibly expelled by the Albanian majority or fled the province to escape perceived threats of revenge by Albanians (note:Most of Kosovo Serbs were in the ruling administration of Milosevic's dictatorship in Kosovo). The non-Albanian population of Kosovo has continued to fall since the arrival of NATO and the UN as a result of violence, perceived intimidation, and economic hardship. Many still live in communal camps in Serbia or Macedonia cared for by international relief agencies. However, there have been many attempts by Kosovo's government to resettle Non-Albanians in the region which have largely been successful, including the resettlement of well over one thousand Serbians and Roma from 2004 - 2005. The Kosovo government has been widely praised for paying for the rebuilding of Serb houses in the aftermath of the 2004 riots. This has been marked as the first case of reparations in the history of the Balkans.

Another Serb: I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT THESE PEOPLE GET AWAY WITH!!!!!!!YOU CANNOT PUBLISH THIS LANGUAGE OF HATRED IN AN RESPECTABLE MEDIA SUCH AS WIKIPEDIA!!!!!MOST OF THE OTHER CASES YOU REACT INSTANTLY- BUT THIS THING HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR WEEKS IF NOT LONGER!!!!YOU CANNOT PRESENT SERBIAN NATION AS A VARVARIC, GENOCIDAL AND SAVAGE, NO NATION IS LIKE THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF EUROPE, ESCPECIALLY THE NATION THAT HAS SUCH A RICHFULL CULTURE AND HISTORIC TIES TO EUROPE!!!!!BY DOING NOTHING YOU ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING TO THE DISPUTE!!!!!I BEG YOU GUYS WHO RUN THIS WEBSITE TO LOOK IT UP ON THE INTERNET, FIND SOME SOURCES YOU CONSIDER VALID AND APPROPRIATE AND REWRITE THIS ARTICLE!!!NOT THE SERBIAN WAY, NOT THE ALBANIAN WAY, BUT THE WAY THAT HAS EVIDENTIAL, SCIENTIFIC AND HISTORICAL SUPPORT! THIS WAR ONLINE HAS TO STOP! 250,000 SERBS ARE AFRAID TO GO BACK TO KOSOVO THAT THEY HAVE ABANDONED FOLLOWING ETHNIC CLEANSING! YOU CANNOT PRETEND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, AND CANNOT DENIE THAT ONLY 3% HAVE RETURNED SINCE 1999!!! 3 %!!!!!!!! I JUST CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I'M READING HERE, I'VE BEEN VISITING THIS SITE FOR A YEAR NOW BUT NOW I'M DEEPLY DISSAPOINTED!!!THIS INTERNET-VIOLENCE IS SILENTLY APPROVED BY THOSE WHO RUN THIS WEBSITE AND I FIND IT SHOCKING, DISTURBING AND RASIST IN 21ST CENTURY! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.106.169.47 (talk • contribs)

The Albanian: -I can't believe how Serbs hate the truth. -There are 65,000 Kosovar Serb refugees in Serbia, not 250,000!!! Stop the Milosevic-type propaganda. Go read www.esiweb.org a reputable think tank, look for their report Laune Principle and you will learn about the number of Serbs. -Albanians are the descendents of Illyrians, thir language proves that. Unless Serbian chouvinists decide that Albanians are not. But historical, sociological and anthopological studies since 18th century have been proving this. And not Albanian, but western sources only. Serbs don't like it because it doesn't suit them politically. -Kosovo was not part of Serbia, it was a territory of the the Nemanjic Dinasty for a short period of time. Serbia was founded in Raska not in Kosovo! -Jefferson has talked about generational sovereignty. He has said sovereignty belongs to the living people. 90% of Kosovars want Kosovo to become a state, you cannot stop it. You can cry and beg, but no, you cannot stop it. -Albanian Lobbying??? Demonizing Albanians as capable of world conspiracy??? This reminds me of Hitler and the Jewish people??? Stop it! That is inciting hatred and violence. -Kosovo was invaded by Serbia in 1912 because the Ottoman Empire was weak! Yes it was invaded! It's people were not asked whether they wanted to join Serbia. Were they asked, Kosovo would have been part of Albania today and Albania and Serbia would have been allies. Today, we have to live the conflict just because of the big unjustice of 1912. -And yes, Serbia has committed crimes! It was the Serbian government on the name of the Serbian people who committed crimes in Croatia, Bosnia and lastly in Kosovo. Peace, let Kosovo breathe, Stop Serb Chouvenistic Propaganda! We've had enough of it for a hundred years. Wikipedia should be placeo of knowledge not of propaganda! Stop the Serb information terrorism!


The Serb: You poor ignorant troll. lets get one thing straight. We Serbs, we have no reason to lie. How DARE you presume to teach us our own history??? Let me tell you this, the Illyrians were the indiginous people of the balkans until they were absorbed into the Serbs (over a period of time, naturally) and have no link whatsoever with the albanians. What you claim to be true, is Austrian propaganda dating back to the 19th century, since they saw it somehow profitable to arm the enemies of Serbdom. Serb chauvanists? How about the half of the world that is normal? Serbia founded in Raska not Kosovo? Again, whos history is it? Yes!!! albanian lobbying!! good thing you mentioned that. the leader of Kosovo Serbs, Archbishop Artemije goes to Washington DC to petition his case against independance and who is he recieved by? an unknown beaurocrat assigned to take the bishop on a tour nothing more. why is that? because Bishop Artemije is not a drug dealer nor is he a pimp. hashim thaci goes to washington and he gets a reeption at the white house and the secretary of state is there. How dare you compare us to hitler when the albanians, bosnians and croatians were marching with him?!?!?!? Kosovo invaded? LIBERATED!!! invasion came in 1998 by the KLA. Serbia committed crimes? and the kla were angels? when pigs fly!! albanians hate truth..thats what you have shown me now....and anyone with an intellectual capacity above that of a turnip will agree...ohh one more thing, keep talking about Serbian hate crimes and we'll give you something to really complain about.


The Albanian: Exactly! You just prove my point. We shouldn't compare you to Hitler!? Hitler is the symbol of violence incited on false claims. That is exactly what Serbia did and what you are calling for. Kosovo was never liberated until 1999. We had all kinds of invasions since ancient times: Roman, Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian, Ottoman and Again Serbian, German, Bulgarian, Italian. The first time that the people of Kosovo control their territory is since 1999, albeit with UN supervision. Your Artemije should go to prison like Abu Hamsa in England. In Kosovo we have a law (UNMIK Regulation 2000/04) which comdemnes inciting of ethnic, religious hatred to 5 years of prison. Did you see what he was saying there??? I think he could as well belong to a mental hospital. That guy has nothing to do with God, that's for sure. 'People of God' as religious people are called, do not call for war and ethnic hatred. My governmnet, out of my taxes has paid for what the rioters did in 2004, when is your government going to pay for my house burned down by your military in 1999? And yes, the KLA committed crimes, but not the structure. It was some individuals. The Hague has just acquitted Fatmir Limaj, who was considered a high officer of the Liberation Army. Ramush Haradinaj will most likely be acquitted to. Only one KLA person has been charged, and he was a prison guard. You threaten me? Do you have any idea what the KLA would have done to your army had they not revenged by killing civilians? And don't forget, we didn't touch Belgrade, don't exclude that in a possible future attack. And I cannot tell you anything else, apart from Kosovo is Free! And so it will remain! If you want to visit Kosovo, you pass through a border. By the end of the year, you will need a valid passport. And when you cross the border it will say "Welcome to the Republic of Kosovo". I hope you don't have a heart attack, or even if you have one I don't care that much. (Damn it! If you have a heart attack you will be brought to the hospital of the Republic of Kosovo, which will be spending my taxes on you! Hmmmm... Ah OK, I would agree to that, I like the Republic of Kosovo to treat equally all foreigners. Even those who have ocupied us in the past like Turks and Serbs, Bulgarians or Germans) Peace!

The Serb:You are so full of lies its simply amazes me. If you actually think anyone is going to believe your insane claims and ravings, ie, people of Kosovo, the righteous KLA, you've got another thing comming. Where is the proof, that albanians have been living in Kosovo for 3 millenia? WHERE? Peace will only be be achieved when Kosovo is returned to who it belongs to. And dont try to fool me saying the new government has payed to repair the damage of 2004. What do you think, im insasne?!!?!!? I've seen the churches and monasteries, almosts a 1000 years old. Burnt to the ground. I've seen the destroyed homese. I've seen the desecrated graves. Personally i dont giva a damn whether or not you are serbian albanian, turkish or german, but what the albanians are doing is evil. THEY are the ones carrying out hitlers work. and about me visiting Kosovo. wont happen unless its with an AK in my hand. You go ahead having your delusions of grandeur. one day you'll wake up and find out you were lying in a pile of horse manure.

The third party:Gentlemen. I hope you do realise that you are making a laughing stock of both Albanians and Serbs with this discussion? I can assure you, many neutral editors patrol around here, many having high standards concerning verifiability as well as maintaining NPOV.

You would both accomplish much more if you would start arguing with those people in a civil manner, rather than chasing each other around in circles and scaring off other editors who might otherwise agree to your arguments. Cheers, The Minister of War (Peace) 14:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The Albanian: These Serbs seem never to be able to come to senses. It's the 21st century! You cannot use guns anymore. If Kosovo belongs to Serbia then Belgrade and the north of Serbia belongs to Hungary and the US belongs to the indians... Kosovo belongs to the people who live there. Stop threatening! If Serbia wants a war, it will not have it unless it attacks. If it attacks, then this time it will be all against all! And we'll see where we get. Yes the Government of Kosovo paid some 7 million Euros out of the taxpayer's money to rebuild some 400 houses damaged by the rioters in 2004. The rioters were not incited by the government, it was the contrary. The Government of Kosovo has paid another 5 million for the religious heritage and has organized a donnors conference where another 10 million were gathered. This is unique in the Balkans! Kosovo, the victim for so long, has been the boldest and has claimed responsibility! The ball is on your field now, chetnicks! Let's see how you respond. Your government has killed 12,000 people, has burned down some 120,000 (70% of private property), and has destroyed the Kosovo economy. I'm sure you'll pay for it, sooner or later. There are international legal mechanisms, that Kosovo will make use of. Like Bosnia, you will have to pay for what your government did, with large public support. If you come to Kosovo with your kalashnikov, our police will try to dissarm you, if they can't, they will send you to hell.

The Serb: I said what I said. I'm not proud of my words, but I can choose no other. Also know this: the issue cannot be resolved with words. To the third party gentleman: thank you for your input.


Saying that the land belongs to the people who live there is really stupid. Before, 3 milion years, was created something called civilization. In every state there is a part of the country where lives more ethinic different people than the "main" nation. So, on the world it should be 1000000 states? ;) We are not living in stone age, don't forget. We should not argue about Kosovo independence here. Your(Mine) opinion about situation on Kosovo should not be placed here. Also, wikipedia should not be used to achieve political goals, should not be used for writing farytailes (Dardania¹), for lies giving. So, before you delete this article, better for all. Article should not be written in Albanian point of view, neither in Serbian.. Just a history as it was. Ancient people, Slavs, Serbian country, Turks, Modern Kosovo. Albanians should be mentioned only in Modern Kosovo. I don't care if Kosovo becomes new state, but history can not be changed (I suppose). In this article Albanians are mentioned trough whole article. You can't realize how frustrating that is..

PS: Quote: -Albanians are the descendents of Illyrians, thir language proves that. Unless Serbian chouvinists decide that Albanians are not. But historical, sociological and anthopological studies since 18th century have been proving this. And not Albanian, but western sources only. Serbs don't like it because it doesn't suit them politically. -Kosovo was not part of Serbia, it was a territory of the the Nemanjic Dinasty for a short period of time. Serbia was founded in Raska not in Kosovo!

Few months ago, for the first time in my life I heard that Albanians are descendents of Illyrians. As I said before, I am really interested in archeology and what I know (maybe history can be changed, really) there is no Illyrian descendents nowadays. I don't say that Albanians are not Illyrians because I am afraid that you can claim territory of Kosovo because of your ancient history. That is absurde anyway. It is funny to create farytail about ancient roots on Balkan, and to use that to demand a land... Why don't you give us arcehological clues that you really have connections with Illryians. Again, I don't care how you call yourself but it is reeeeally stupid to claim the territory because of fake ancient roots.

If it is possible few of us should write article and the best article should be putted as a main. ? M.N

You said: "Before, 3 milion years, was created something called civilization". For your information, three million years ago, our relatives were still climbing in the trees. For more information, see Australopithecus africanus. I wrote this to remind you to stick to the facts. THIS IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA. It's not a place to debate whether Kosovo should be exist as a country or not. We're here to tell what the current situation is, NEUTRALLY, not to debate those kinds of things. The fact is that right now it's neither an independent country, nor an actual part of Serbia. We don't need to give our own opinions of what it might be in the future. --HJV 21:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

"Before, 3 milion years, was created something called civilization" - lol.. What I wanted to say is 3000 thousand years, before (bc actually) was created something called civilization. Mine mistake.... Everything else is the more-less the same thing I said... About voiting.. I thought, few of us create article, and the most neutral to be chosen. (I am saying this because, two sides will create articles, and again there will be nationalism from both side.)

Suggestion

Make the most simple article about the region, totaly neutral, AND THEN lock it untill discussion is ended. It's not fair this way, you locked pro-albanian version. This is not what Wikipedia should be.

where to start?

where can I start to discuss and oppose Shqiptar propaganda? here it seems a bit too chaotic....--TheFEARgod 15:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe here: Serbian-Albanian Conflict, to analyse the roots of Albanian aggressive behaviour towards Serbs.--TheFEARgod 15:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


Ridiculous

(Giani I think it makes sense to comment on your comments on your text. I hope you agree. The Albanian)

Quote : Kosovo was invaded by Serbia in 1912 because the Ottoman Empire was weak.

Truth: Well, Kosovo belonged to Serbia before the Turks came, so large parts of today's Serbia together with Kosovo was liberated, not invaded. Even some parts of northern Albania belonged to Serbia before the Turks occupied Serbia including the city of Shkoder (Skadar).

The real truth: Kosovo was absolutely invaded as the majority of the people to some 80% were ethnic Albanians. Albanian nationalism had not reached the masses. Kosovo was not Serbian. Serbian nationalism emerged in 19the century. Serbian nationalists used Kosovo in order to gain mass support. This is a case that the political science knows as "ethno-symbolism." While Serbian nationalism was a reaction to it's northern borders, Albanian nationalism was a reaction to the Greek and Serb nationalism and thus was relatively late. When Serbia attacked, Albanians were unprepared to gather mass support. Serbia and Greece were much strongoer. The four Albanian Vilayets (Ottoman Autonomous Regions), where Albanians made the absolute majority had some 94,000 square kilometres. Albania is today 28,000 and Kosovo 11,000. Albanians make the majority in some 8,000 more in Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia bringing it all to some 47,000, slightly over half of what they had under control. Vast regions were ethnically cleansed in XIXthe century in Northern Greece, Southern Serbia and Western Macedonia. The Turkish population of Albanian descent is considered to be between 4 and 12 million today. Albanians made the majority in Nis until 1878, Skopje was virtually Albanian with a very small Serbian and Bulgarian (back then) minority. This all changed in 1912, when Serbia invaded.

The more real truth: That's one of the biggest lies ever. Where did you get all those fake numbers? Albanians became the majority of the population in Kosovo only after the WWII because they had on average 7-8 kids per family.


Quote : It was the Serbian government on the name of the Serbian people who committed crimes in Croatia, Bosnia and lastly in Kosovo.

Truth: The conflict in Kosovo cannot compare with the previous one that took place in Bosnia, and some parts of Croatia. Being half Croatian and half Serbian, I developed a very neutral view, meaning that I understood both sides why they engaged in a war, but at the same time, I was also very angry on polititians from both sides, as they were dividing genetically and culturaly very close nations. Serbs did awfull crimes in Bosnia (Srebrenica), Croatia (Vukovar) and other places in this war. But not a lot of people know that during the WWII more than 200 000 Serbs were killed or forced to escape Croatia. So the bad guys in the WWII were Croatians. But I'm not going to talk that much about this war, as it is not the subject of our discussion. Kosovo problem is a cause of the previous war, and terrible Milosevic's politics, but the problems that provoked the South Slav conflict were much deeper, meaning the history of the regions whose autonomy was disputed.

The real truth: I believe that the conflicts of the Balkans have a mixed origin. I don't buy the historical factor as being an important one. I believe nationalism, that is the aim for expanssion of territory and control, was the main factor. Milosevic was not the founder of Serbian nationalism. Serbian nationalism is deeply rooted in the Serb collective self. Serbian nationalism was a result of the opportunities that Serbia had had for expanssion (bordering two weakening empires). Serbian nationalism is offensive. Albanian nationalism was a reaction to two expansionist nationalism, that is why it is defensive.

The more real truth: OK, I've heard enough about Serbian nationalism. You can say that Albanian nationalism is a reaction to Serbian, but I say that it's vice versa. On the contrary Croatian nationalism was a reaction to Serbian one, but you know that you had a plan to get Kosovo long before Serbian nationalism.


Quote: Kosovo is Free! And so it will remain! If you want to visit Kosovo, you pass through a border. By the end of the year, you will need a valid passport. And when you cross the border it will say "Welcome to the Republic of Kosovo". I hope you don't have a heart attack, or even if you have one I don't care that much. (Damn it! If you have a heart attack you will be brought to the hospital of the Republic of Kosovo, which will be spending my taxes on you!)

Truth: Wow, relax man and breathe deeply. This sounds like a last word from some mad scientist that wants to destroy the planet Earth. Kosovo is not independent, and it never will be. Remember that the Congress of Vienna concluded that changes of borders will not be possible in Europe.

The real truth: If you follow the news, you would know that Kosovo is de-facto independent now. You would also know that the aim of the US, UK, France, Italy, Germany is to grant Kosovo indpendence by the end of the year. You would also know that Russia has said that it will not block any decision reached. You would know that at the UN SC meeting most of the countries supported some sort of independence for Kosovo. I agree that independence is not very good, but it is the best solution for now. Kosovo should have been part of Albania in 1912. Now that is difficult to be done, so Kosovo has to become an independent state. Serbia is no alternative not only because the Kosovars will not accept it, but also because Serbia doesn't have the means to maintain Kosovo as it's territory and does not have any serious plan how to integrate it. Serbian calls for Kosovo to be part of Seria are a result of frustration rather then having any pragmatic aim.

The more real truth: Ha, ha. Funny you mentioned the year 1912, that's when Albania was created, and gained a lot of it's today's northern teritories only thanks to the country of Austria, who didn't want Serbia to have an entrance to sea. And about independence, well it will happen when Russia gives independence to Chechnya, and one other region, i don't remember its name, and if Spain give autonomy to the Basques, so the independence of Kosovo is very unlikely to happen.


Quote: If Kosovo belongs to Serbia then Belgrade and the north of Serbia belongs to Hungary and the US belongs to the indians!

Truth: So here, for the first time in my life I see an Albanian who admits (although it probably wasn't his\her intention) that Serbs were in Kosovo before Albanians, that's a big step forward. I need to give you one more fact in order to explain why it should still belong to Serbia. Albanians comprised the majority of population in Kosovo only few years after the WWII, for the first time! So, if you can get Kosovo, just because of the extremely high number of children per family, than I will marry 2000 women and they will get me 20 kids each, and then I will move to some north albanian city and ask for the independence of it.

The Real Truth: I have never said that Serbs were in Kosovo before Albanians. Ethnic Albanians according to historical facts were in the Balkans before everyone else. But this is not important at all. The world belongs to the living people. Not to the ones who have died centuries or millenia ago. Kosovo is mine, because it is mine, not because it belonged to Albanians before Serbs. What I wanted to say was this. "If you claim that Kosovo was Serbian, why do you also claim that Vojvodina is yours, which in 12th century was Hungarian. If you were to govern Kosovo today, would you give Vojvodina back to Hungary." Another important point: According to Ottoman documents, when the Orthodox priest Arsenije left in another element of ethno-symbolism, the people that followed him were Orthodox and some Catholics. Albanians of Kosovo were both Orthodox and Catholic. And knowing that when he left, the national conscienceness was not there yet, one could conclude that the people that he led were ethnically both Albanian and Serb and probably also Bulgarian. The more real truth:

The more real truth: Do you understand what you're writing? If you compare Serbs with the Native Indians in the US, it definitely does mean that Serbs are the first who lived in Kosovo. And this thing that you wrote --- "If you claim that Kosovo was Serbian, why do you also claim that Vojvodina is yours, which in 12th century was Hungarian. If you were to govern Kosovo today, would you give Vojvodina back to Hungary." Well, wouldn't Albania than be like 5 times smaller. There would be a total mess in the whole world. I'm not trying to say that Kosovo should stay Serbian only cause Serbs were the first people there. It should stay part of Serbia cause of everything that happened on Kosovo since the Serbs came, and because the Congress of Vienna concluded that the borders in Europe will not be changed any more.


Quote: Albanians are the descendents of Illyrians, thir language proves that.

Truth: No it doesn't unfortunately for you. I already said, the only ones who can claim to be of Illyrian descent are the Dalmatians (Croatia)

The real truth: I think there is no point in arguing here. Claiming that Albanians are not descendants or Illyrians, is like claiming that todays Greeks are not the descendants of Helens. Probably both have some truth in them, in that there are Slavic and other tribes melted within both nations but still, the language and the cultural heritage convay elements of the ancienity of both cultures. I think this is not a forum to discuss this as this should be a matter of real historians and anthropologists. I want to repeat that I don't ever want to say that Kosovo belongs to Albanians because it did in ancient times. That is irrelevant. Kosovo it belongs to Albanians because it belongs to Albanians. History is a 'science' of the past and it should in any way project the future.

The more real truth: OK. I'll let the scientists argue about that. But please take a look at the map of Illyrian territories.


Quote: Kosovo was not part of Serbia, it was a territory of the the Nemanjic Dinasty for a short period of time.

Truth: Really? And did you know that Nemanjic Dynasty is a Serbian dynasty? Gianni ita

The real truth: As I said, the national conscienceness of Serbs was developped in the XIXth century. The Nemanjic Dinasty were ethnically Serb (although there are some contraversial claims by Albanians that they had Albanian origin- difficult to prove; I guess it is similar to the Serbian claim that the Albanian prince Scanderbeg had Serbian roots). They claimed to be be the kings of Serbs, Albanians and Vallahians. But this is not important, there were thousands of kings around the world who lived, ruled and died. And I don't want my life, nor yours to be influenced by that. Yes, there are cultural elements that need to be preserved but life has changed today. The legacies of the past are not that important in our lifes or in our collective being.

The real truth: Nemanjic dynasty albanian, wow. That's probably one of the best lies I've heard. Is Goebbels your relative?


In Conclusion: Serbia needs to treat its nationalism. Expanssion is not possible anymore. It is a far more dynamic world. Greece is trying to make economic expanssion as a remedy for territorial one, which, like Serbia, it cannot do now. That is doomed to fail too. The only way out is by education. The form of nationalism needs to be exposed publically and reverted to a positive form. I believe in the present international arrangement of nation-states, there is need for some patriotism. But patriotism does allow for positivism regarding the neigbours. Serbia cannot be good, if Albanians are not good, and vice-versa. The only way towards the future is by being pragmatic, real patriots and Europeans. Mladic is not a patriot, he is a nationalist. Nationalists are more damaging for the nation than traitors! In fact, they are traitors!

In better conclusion: Albania need to treat its nationalism as well as Serbia does. I agree, no expansions, on any side. Please don't mention education, because Serbia is way in front of Albania in that field. Just take a look at any of the indicators and compare them (literacy rates, number of people with hs diplomas, bachelor, master) Mladic is not a part of this story and doesn't have to do anything with it. I already explained you that you cannot compare Kosovo conflict with '90s conflict between Yugoslav states.

Sadly none of you two know the "real truth" and even if someone who knows told you it, you'd both reject it as being false, saying things went more like you think they did. The positive side of your anonymous "conversations" is that I (and possibly others) now understand better why the czechs among others didn't seek independence from Austria, when they could have. --HJV 15:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


Agree w/ the suggestion The Serb: I agree, to stop this everlasting dispute this article needs to be rewritten and protected. Wikipedia shouldn't be a place for political/ethnic chauvinism and discrimination against minorities...nor political marketing and especially not a subject of an internet warfare....just put it back the way it was a few months ago, it was always kinda pro-albanian but it hasn't been as completely discriminatory and almost rediciously cruel and false concerning Serbs and their historical heritage in that province. NeroN BG

The Albanian: Who should rewrite it? There are two mutually exclusive truths. This needs to be oppened now and people should be allowed to present their view. I think during the status talks there will be a lot of activity around this page.


--- I agree NeroN Bg, the previous article was a lot more neutral. Gianni ita

The Albanian: The previous article was not neutral. It was a Milosevic type propaganda. There was a large portion of racism and it was anti-humane. One sentence was something like: "There was an anticipation for Albanians to be retreated to Turkey," which is an indirect claim for ethnic cleansing.

The Serbo-croato-italian (Gianni ita): Yes, that sentence was part of the article but the article didn't support that policy, it just stated Milosevic's view.

---

The previous article was pure Serbian chauvinism! This one is farely unbiased. We should agree in a forum on what should the article contain. Serbs from Serbia should have no say. Only citizens of Kosovo of Serbian ethnic background.


Previous article was at least based on evidences (censuses, accepted historical facts, demographic statistics etc). This article is a big chauvinist, imaginary, Albanian Utopia, based on Albanian estimates which are nowhere near recognition, Albanian numbers and so on. You consider Serbs the enemies, but you cannot erase their history from Kosovo. It dates back 15 centuries, there are plenty of evidences for that, the name of the province, toponyms and the most ancient medieval temples of SOC are located there. Every bird knows that. During the Nemanjic dynasty it was the cultural centre of the Serbian Empire. Has it ever been included in Albania? Has it ever been your centre before Prizren League and later during the 20th century (when Kosovo was given to you by Tito)??? I'm just asking you to follow the ackgowledged facts not make up ones on your own. This site says that there are like 2,5 million people in Kosovo (give me a BREAK!!!!!!), talks about Serbs as savage tribes (Serbs and Croats are both ancient peoples who got slavicised), posesses an incredible level of discrimination and so on. You cannot make up your history, or you can make up one for yourself, w/o rewriting someone else's history. Serbian history is entirely clear and undisputed at least to the 6th century A.D., what happened before that is not really relevant in this matter. Albanian history is very disputable since your origins are not entirely clear (Illyrian? Thracian? Caucasian???), your language either, you are not mentioned in Kosovo before the 16th century and so on. Serbs have nothing to hide or be ashamed of- unlike you guys who erase Serbian history in Kosovo in lack of your own historical ties to that province. I agree, you're a majority- but Serbs are not dead nor entirely expelled from Kosovo. Kosovo is NEVER going to be Albanian- it's going to be multiethnic., both Serbian, Bosniak and Albanian. Because Kosovo is not a nation state- Albania is. And no matter what happens later on- Serbs in Kosovo will be your neigbours, forever and ever. And you cannot live with them unless you have some basic respect and understanding for their culture. There's only one history, and it's based on the facts. Medieval history of Kosovo is that of the Serbian nation, and you have no right to manipulate with that. History of Kosovo during late Ottoman era is mostly connected with the Albanians, but Serbs have remained to live there, even during Tito who tried to denie them that right. You're a majority in Kosovo- but nobody will take you seriously unless you have evidential support for your claims, which you don't. Kosovo is not some mythical island in the middle of nowhere-it's a country in the middle of Balkans, on the crossroads that lead to Asia and Western and South Europe. Its history is pretty clear, only the question is if the real history really matters in Kosovo, or is it still in its mythical- irracional stage, such were the Balkan states upon the Slavic arrival some 1,500 years ago. NeroN BG


For a multiethnic Kosovo

1st, history is not important for politics. Religion is not important for politics. Once you engage any of the two in your decision-making, you will only bring tragedies. Albanian history is far clearer than the Serbian one. It dates back to the 2millenium before christ. There are enough historical facts, that I am not going to put down here. However, it should suffice to say that Albanian history was not written by Albanians but by Germans, English, Dutch, Italian and French historians. So, the chances that there is bias are much smaller. The Serbian history has been written by Serb nationalist historians. I say nationalist, because we both know we live in the age of nationalism and we both know that historians are producers of history to suit nationalistic goals rather then to find out what has happened in the past. All illyrian toponyms can be explained through Albanian. Dardania, the ancient name for Kosovo, Western Macedonia and Southern Serbia in toda's Albanian would be Dardhania, which means the land of pears (Krusevo). Go to Ecnyclopedia Britanica and seek for the origin of Albanian language and you will see that all names of ancient Greece Gods can be explained through Albanian:

Greek Illyrian Today's Albanian English Zeus Zojs Zot God Afrodita Afrodita Aferdita Early morning (Morning star)

This indicates that Albanians and Greek may have a common origin and that Greece was modified while Albanian remained more faithful to the old root. I am not saying this to tell you that Albanians have a historical reason to live in Kosovo. I believe history is not important! History is cration of the past as the facts are so scarce that you simply cannot rely on them. It's the same as religion, the facts are so scarce that a certain religion is the right one that you simply cannot base your faith on facts. You either believe it or you don't and once you believe it then you start making up facts to fit your belief. THat is why history and religion should not interfere with politics.

I agree that Serbs have lived throughout the Ottoman empire in Kosovo, Ottoman documents claim that they were a minority but it doesn't matter. Not the Serbian nation! The Serbian nation is a result of XIXth century, when ethnic Serbs were a minority in Kosovo. I fully agree that Serbs have every right to live in Kosovo. The goal of the institutions of Kosovo is to achieve that aim. Of course this is not presented in Serbia as Serbia is not interested to see the Kosovo Serbs live in Kosovo, Serbia is interested to see them suffering as only in this way can it win over Albanians and erase what has happened in the past 100 years?

-Do you know that the government of Kosovo has paid with the Kosovo money some 12 million euros to rebuild the houses of returning Serbs and the damaged religious property only in 2004-2005? Some 10 more million in the preceeding years.

-Do you know that although Serbs make 6 percent of the population, in the last Parliament they made some 18%? 23 out of 120 MPs were Serb; www.skupstinakosova.org go check the archive for the previous legislature)? In the current one they did't participate but they have 10 reserved seats. There is one Serb minister in the Government of Kosovo. Do you know that 15% of the Kosovo Police Service are Serbian?

-Do you know that Serbian is the Second official language in Kosovo, decided by Albanians. Every official document of public interest is translated into Serbian. All official websites of Kosovo are in Serbian too. Albanian is an official language in Macedonia only in towns where Albanians make the majority and Albanians make some 26% of the population of Macedonia?

-Do you know that some 14% of all employees in the public sector in Kosovo are Serb (Serbs make only 6% of the people)?

-Do you know that Serbs in most regions of Kosovo do not pay for telephone and electricity?

-Do you know that Serbs have more freedom of movement in Kosovo then Albanians? Serbs go to Albanian areas, Albanians cannot go to Serb enclaves, particularly in the North.

-Do you know that in all survays, economic problems are the No.1 problems of Kosovo Serbs? Not political ones?

-Do you know that Kosovo Serbs are a very unfortunate ethnic group? Do you know that they are hated by the people in Kosovo because of what Serbia did over them together with some manipulated Kosovo Serbs? Do you know that Kosovo Serbs are victims of Belgrade too? Do you know that Kosovo Serbs are probably hated more in Nis and Belgrade then in Kosovo?

-What should Kosovo do more? Please give a rational pragmatic and realistic idea here!


Serb Response: - First, do you know that Kosovo is still part of Serbia?

- Second, who "gave" to Serbs all the things you wrote?

!- Greek Illyrian Today's Albanian English Serbian??

   Ζεύς       Zojs             Zot             Zevs             Zevs

I don't understand what do you want to say??


- What is so strange that the second official language on Kosovo, still part of Serbia, is Serbian???

- Do you know that Serbia pays credits for Kosovo?

- Do you know that a large amount of Serbs on Kosovo DON'T HAVE telephone and electricity?

- If Serbs on Kosovo are so free as you say, why then police must cover them to the monastery on some of our holy days. Why police leads them to the cemeteries which they find ruind?

-Kosovo is still part of Serbia, and Serbs are treated as foreign. What can we except when Kosovo becomes independent?


Albanian response to Serb response -Kosovo is not part of Serbia, the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government have no relation with Serbia whatsoever. They are responsible ot the people and the UN SC. They have decided to have Serbian as the second official language because of the Serbian minority. Instead of being arrogand, one should be thankful. It was the Albanians who decided to have Serbian as an official language to accomodate the 6% Serb minority in Kosovo. They could have as well decided for Albanian only.

-It was the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government that gave those to the Serbs. You can check the web-pages of the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government. Prime Minister www.pm-ksgov.nt Assembly of Kosovo www.assemblyofkosovo.org

-What I wanted to explain to you is that the name of Zeus according to British Encyclopeida has the same root with the Albanian word for God ('Zot' Illyrian 'Zoys'). Albanians call Zeus-Zeus. All the names of other Greek Gods are explained through Albanian in the Encyclopedia Britanica. Again this is just an argument that Albanians are an ancient Balkanic group. Howevever, I am not claiming that Albanians have historic rights over Kosovo. No one does! Illyrians inhabited it, Romans governed it, Greeks introduced Christianity, Bulgarians introduced the Orthodox Church, Serbs governed it in the middle ages, Turks governed it for 500 years, Serbs governed it for 100 years. But no one has historic rights over the territory. The right belongs to the living people and those want Kosovo to be independent.

-I know that Serbia says that it pays credits for Kosovo. Thank you for doing that! We would appreciate it very much of other neighbouring countries start to do the same. What I am trying to say is that the fact that Serbia is paying for Kosovo debts, does not make Albanians Serbian loyal citizens. I think it would be good if Serbia follows the example of Kosovo and starts paying reparations, accordint to UNHCR Serbia burned down some 120,000 houses; 65,000 of them unrepairable.

-Telephone and electricity: The Kosovo institutions have moved in some measures to make the people pay for what they spend. Kosovo Serbs haven't paid for the past 7 years, they owe millions to the Kosovo Electical Company and the Kosovo Post and Telecommunications.

-Kosovo Serbs are not treated as foreigners at all, as I explained with the facts of how overrepresented they are in Kosovo institutions. Citizens of Serbia, be they Serb or Albanian, are treated as foreigners. There is a border with check-points in both Kosovo and Serbian side, after all.

-I explained earlier that Kosovo Serbs are over-represented and enjoy some very special rights that no other group of people enjoys in the Balkans. But unfortunately, they are hated by the people for what Serbia has done in the past 100 years. Serbia is not helping in this respect. There has been no appology, the number of trials for war crimes is riddiculously small and there is not talk for reparations. Kosovo institutions have undertaken numerous campaigns and have paid large sums of money to help reconciliation, but Serbia is obstructing it, very successfuly so far. Unfortunately, as I said, Kosovo Serbs overall are more hated in Serbia then Kosovo. While Kosovo accepts them as its own citizen, Serbia treats them as second hand citizen or as citizen of an external colony. So the only solution is, for Serbia to tell them to shift their loyalty to Prishtina and to cooperate with Prishtina in order to ensure they get proper rights and attention.

--- The Serb: Man you definitely are some relative of Joseph Goebbels. You make everything seem as if Serbs are the bad guys, who have no reasons to claim its territory. Just beware foreign readers, of this pure manipulation of your minds by this inteligent albanian.

--- The Albanian response: Hahahaha if anything is false from what I said, and if anything that I said goes against the best of Serbia and Kosovo, then you can call me Goebbels or whatever you feel like. I think I want the best for Kosovo and for Serbia. The independence of Kosovo is the best solution, in absence of a better one. The life in the Balkans would have been much better had Kosovo become part of Albania in 1912. Now, that is difficult to be done, so Kosovo has to become a state. Two million is not much but is as much as Slovenia and Macedonia and more then Montenegro, so Kosovo represents the mean in the scale of sizes of population of the successor states of Yugoslavia.

--- The (half ;)) Serb: Look, I am tired of wars, of politics, of nationalism... I lived in Croatia during the war, and I was half Croatian, half Serbian. Whole my life i have spoken about peace and tolerance, but now I can catch myself thinking as misanthrope. I can do nothing about Kosovo independence. Kosovo will become independent, we all know that, and so be it. Don't think that I aprove that. That is totally illegal. Why don't forces of world give independence in Russia, in Spania..? But...I am one (we are 10 milions...)... What I only want to do here is to help to leave history as it was... You might be Albanian, you might fight for independence of Kosovo, but where is humanity if you say that this article is accurate.. I really doubt in your roots in Illyrians, and I will deny it over, and over because it was declared just few years ago as a goal to claim land of Kosovo which is stupid, with no archeological evidences or anything.. The land of Albania was created after wars on balcan. Albania was in fact Serbian, but great forces created Albania so Serbia could not have sea.. Create your history now, don't try to invert the history. About the facts you answered me...

- I don't know why do you think and how do you know that Serbs for Serbia hate Serbs from Kosovo? OK, it was already said that Serbs hate all people, but that Serbs hate their own nation is too much, don't you think?

- Kosovo is part of Serbia. How can you speak that nonsence??? It is not independent. Why do we then have negotiations? Do you see how you treat Serbs as foreign..? You are talking about giving them some rights in their own land? As I said, what will happen when they lose their land?

- About electricity - Only Serbs haven't paid electricity? Eh, how could it be?.....

- Serbia burned houses?... I should not answer this at all... How many monasteries,just, were burned by Albanians??

- Tell me why Albanians were not indetificed as Illyrians before? Why is the history of people who lived 3000 years on this area so dark and unknown? Please, just without Serbs :)..

..Men you're killing me...

--Mephistophilus 05:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The Albanian: I am never tiered helping vanish ingnorance. I believe ignoranace is what makes masses follow leaders like Milosevic. U2 have a song in which they say "the less you know the more you believe." I am not trying to offend, but say that the conflicts of former Yugoslavia have strangled all of us be it Albanian, Croatian or Serb. I will address your points again one by one:

-Kosovo is de-facto independent. It has all a country needs to be independent: institutions, police, army, borders. The negotiations are for the rights of the Serbs in Kosovo and for the international status of Kosovo.

-But of course, Serbia cannot govern Kosovo. It doesn't have the democratic means to do it. Do you honestly believe Serbia can take effective control of Kosovo? But Russia had to let Latvia and Ukraine go where large numbers of Russians live. In Latvia they are even not given linguistic rights. Russia doesn't want to give up Chechenya for strategic reasons... The Spanish Catalans don't really want to be independent, in a referendum some 60% of people would vote te remain part of Spain, with some autonomy. The same with Northern Ireland, 55% of the people want to be part of Britain, that is why they are. The British are sick and tiered of Northern Ireland issue.

-No, it is not only the Serbs who don't pay for electricity. But the Serbian press covers only the Serbs when their electricity is cut. Do you understand, one needs to pay for what one spends. Now, you may be part of a 'heavenly nation' but wait until you die to rip the rewards. In this life we all have to be equal :).

-About burning houses, oh I can tell you: Becuse of the conflict: In 1997-1999: Some 120,000 houses were burned, some 600 Albanian religious buildings too In 1999-2003: Some 2,000 Serbian houses were burned, some 80 Serbian religious buildings too I think both sides should take responsibility for what they have done. Kosovo has started in a very good vay, by paying for reconstruction. Serbia should do it too soon! Hey by the way, do you know what is expecting Serbia? The UNHCR have all the data for the burned houses, and you know that reparations are a normal thing in Europe since WWII. Let me do a little calculation: So, Serbia burned down 120,000 houses at let's say... erm.... what 30,000 Euro per average? OK so 120,0000 x 30,000 = 3,600,000,000. NICEEEE!!!!! Let me predict you will start paying in 2015 and you will finish some 30 years later. And yes, this was only the private property. And this happens only because Serbia is unlucky, it is situated in Europe! If it were like you say somewhere close to Russia, then it probably would have never paid.

-It was known since the middle ages that Albanians were the descendants of Illyrians. THere are numerous documents from the Vatican that prove that. There are countless western records of the 18th, 19th and 20th century that prove that with facts. Kosovo is an archeological gold-mine. (We found an Illyrian tomb of the third century B.C. in my grandfather's property).

You are talking about multiethnical Kosovo, and you are writing like the Albanian country is Kosovo, and Serbian Serbia. I don't understand.. Quote: I think both sides should take responsibility for what they have done. Kosovo has started in a very good vay, by paying for reconstruction. Serbia should do it too soon! It is funny how you treat Kosovo as independent and sovereign country. Does it have constitution? Borders?? passport.. Army? Kosovo has army?? It is funny that you treat Kosovo as it was never part of Serbia. Actually, every your word is funny..

Quote:It was known since the middle ages that Albanians were the descendants of Illyrians. THere are numerous documents from the Vatican that prove that. There are countless western records of the 18th, 19th and 20th century that prove that with facts. Kosovo is an archeological gold-mine. (We found an Illyrian tomb of the third century B.C. in my grandfather's property).

Please give me some evidence... I mean, if you are really Illyrians..you should have something written for 3000 thousand years. Give me some document, anything that will prove you are right.. Don't just speak nebulosity, please...

Anyway, you are skipping the main thing. We are here to discuss about article, not about should Kosovo be independent or not. Tell me, honestly, do you really think that this present article is 100% accurate? Do you really think that on this article should be Albanian history? Do you really think this article is neutral? If you say yes than there is no point for discussing anymore. --Mephistophilus 13:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Albanian response: Yes, Kosovo has constitution (read it at http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm). Kosoovo has it's borders and the Kosovo Border Police supported by KFOR troops and UN Police Check the borders and there are 8 border-crossings with Serbia, Macedonia, Albania and Montenegro. Kosovo has an Army in the process of creation, Kosovo Protection Corps (check http://www.joinkpc.org/), by the time Kosovo has its own army, it will continue to have the NATO-led KFOR. Kosovo has passports, although they have the UN Logo presently since Kosovo is still not internationally recognized. And yes, Kosovo was a Serbian colony for almost a hundred years. Indeed a colony as the people of Kosovo was invaded and never agreed to live under the Serbian state.

What evidence do you want? Go read the Gjon Buzuku's 'Meshari' (1555), read also the Marin Barleti's "Hisotory of Scanderbeg" (1502) and you will find enough information about that. I could do a thorough research but it's not worth it here. What is left from Illyrian is the toponyms. They used Latin in administration and writing. Albanian did that unitl recently.

I think that there are different views to history. Rather, different interpretation. I am sure the history of Bulgarians or of Turks about Kosovo would be completely different. However, I believe that the people of Kosovo have the right to their own history. The people of Serbia have the right over the history of Serbia. If you tell me that you think that the History of Serbia is true, then there is nothing we can talk about either. I am fully certain that this version of history takes into considration both Albanian and Serb points of view, to a large extant. There is always room for improvement. But I believe Kosovo belongs to the people who live there, and it should reflect their interpretation of the past.

Trust me I haven't checked the entry about "Serbia". Why do you care about Kosovo or Albania? Be a nice neigbour and mind your own business... ;)

The view of a neutral third party

First, all of you, Albanian and Serb alike need to realize that two wrongs don't make a right. This situation is more complex than any outside party, particularly in the US, can comprehend. However, I have to state that if 80-90% of the Population is Albanian, why should they not have their independence? This situation and the long slew of retaliations, counter-retaliations, etc. could have been avoided if Serbia and the international community would just accept the right of the 80-90% majority to have their way. It's called democracy. Anything else would be as futile as Native Americans calling to control the US. Except that the Native Americans would probably be more justified in their claim than the Serbs to their claims over the Albanians.


Unprotecting

I see nothing on this talk page but the usual partisan shouting match. Please take it to a forum site or somewhere. This is an encyclopedia. I'm unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway 02:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

This is totally wrong. First of all the US destroyed their Native American Populations in the 1890s and second of all Kosovo is the heartland of serb culture. Serious NPVO -Lazar

How can Kosovo be the heart of a culture which makes up 10% of the population? - confused asian reader

On Kosovo there are one of the oldes churches, built by . Kosovo was Serbian, and Serbs lived on Kosovo trough whole Serbian history. While country was under Titos reign, he particulary evicted Serbs from Kosovo, and gave Kosovo to Albanians... --Mephistophilus 20:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I am sure the confused asian reader is even more confused after Mephistophilus enlightened him with the history details which none besides the heavinly nation (read: Serbs) believe in...regards, ilir

I agree with Lazar; it's true that Kosovo is 88% Albanian today however that huge shift in population has taken place during the course of the 20th century alone. They consisted some 50% of the population at the beginning of the century but Serbs have consisted some 40% at that time, which you cannot denie. Turks did not succeed in expelling the Serbs from Kosovo but Albanians surely did. I bet that some parts of New Mexico could ask for independence taking that it has an overwhelming Mexican majority. It was the same between Mex-Usa as it is with Serbia (Kosovo) and Albania; Albanians were attracted towards Kosovo by a much higher standard of living, exceptionally big freedoms (given to them by Tito) and Tito's policy itelf, which were all at a far better level than those in Albania, that was at the time a xenophobic, extremely impoverished and isolated country. Kosovo became an Albanian Uthopia during 20th century and the large scale colonization from Albania and an extremely high birth rate has enabled their dream. During all that time Serbs were stagnating population wise. Today there are less Serbs in Kosovo than there were during medieval period, upon the Turkish conquest, 600 years ago, but their culture still remains there (churches, frescoes, UNESCO protected monasteries, imperial cities in ruins, toponyms etc). You cannot just erase someone's 1400 year old history and rewrite a new one. Serbian history in Kosovo has a strong evidential, cultural and historical backing, unlike Albanian history in that area (or in general?). There are still debates over the Albanian origin which are no where near its final solution (Thracian/Illyrian/Caucasian theories???).... p.s.Kosovo is not meant to be a Second Albania, nor its realistic to believe that the world would support such a claim (escpecially after refusing to support the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia, Ukrainians in Transdniestria etc). Kosovo should be a multiethnic land, independent or not. The world cannot afford to see Greater Albania materializing in the middle of Europe.NeroN BG


Neron BG, playing with statistics and history is what loosers do. If you think like that USA should belong to Indians. But non-heavenly people think of today, and leave history and old statistics aside. I agree with you that Kosovo should be an independent country and multiethnic. That is clearly stated by all democratically elected governments of Kosovo. Nobody is talking about great or greater Albania. That has clearly been erased as a possible solution for Kosova's status, that said by the Contact Group. At the same time all other options which Serbs are dreaming about (read: Kosovo to have any relationship with Serbia) are off the table. More and more self-determination is being supported by the International Community, as the last Contact Group stated in their last meeting, and more openly US and UK govt officials said during their last visits to the region. It is better for all if we instead not call back on some historical and old statistical data from the past, but instead move forward and try to make Kosovo a country worth living in, for all nations. Greetings, ilir


If Goebbles was alive, he would be so envious to some Serbs who spread propaganda all over! It's absolutely unbeliveable. I would feel rage if I knew that they're doing that on purpose, but I would feel really sad if they actually believ in that posionous tapestry of lies taht hey write here. I won't make it long, but just a few points that I noticed above on the discussions. -If Serbia claims Kosovo because of a couple of mediveal churches, then why not claim Greece, where their oldest Serb church of Hilandar is located? Plus, the authnticity of the churches is unknown, due to the fact that Kosovo Albanians before the Ottoman conquest were mostly orthodox christians who adhered to the Serbian Ortjodox Church! -Kosovo was never a cradle of Serbia! The first Serbian state was formed in Raska and Zeta as we all know. How did yu make Kosovo a cradle then? -How do you claim neutrality ehen all the links that you provide are either Serb or Serb-biased sites. What about links from world renowned media? Claiming that KLA was ever considered terrorist is a plain lie, Goebbles-style. KLA was a NATO ally during the bombings, as we all know. If you believ otherwise, put up a link to the document that states that they were terrorists ever! But don't bring leftist antiwar-com type of sites as sources as they are all biased. I said world renowned. -Where in earth does it say that Kosovo is a part of Serbia??? Except in Serbia, of course! UN Resolution 1244 which governs Kosovo plainly states that Kosovo remains a part od Yugolslavia (present Serbia & Montenegro) and nowhere does it say that Kosovo is a part of Serbia. -It's useless to tak about statistics. Everything you quote is Belgrade-produced and we now hw neutral and unbiased was that. -Finally, why do you keep talking about 600-700 years ago history. Yes, Kosovo was a part of Serbia at that time, as man parts of Albania, Greece, Macedonia and Bulgaria were, too, but that doesn't make it a part of Serbia today. Why don't you claim the other states, too? And especially Greece becayse of Hilandar church? Even if Kosovo was part of Serbia, before that it was a part of Byzantine empire, before that of a Bulgarian empire and before that it was Albanian-Illyrian. It might have taken a lot of centuries, but now the record is being set straight, so if you look back in history then look back to the oldest records and that tells you that present Kosovo was Illyrian Dardania and there are unlimited resources who prove ALbanians's Illyrian descent (e.g. read renowned scholar Aleksandar Stipcevic - a Croatian, not an Albanian!).

I could go on and on, cos there is just so much pro Serbian propganda here, but I'll stop now. After all, I gues the best solution as suggested above is that a very basic neutral article is written and locked to editing, until the Kosovo stauts talks end later this year. Then a proper article can be written. Otherwise, this article is gonna be a battlefield of distasteful propaganda from both sides; and that doesen't do honor to a respectful resource as Wikipedia.


--- Quote: Claiming that KLA was ever considered terrorist is a plain lie, Goebbles-style. KLA was a NATO ally during the bombings, as we all know.

Yes, KLA was NATO ally, but they were terrorist army ;) Why can't I create army in my city and fight for its independence? :)

Quote: -Finally, why do you keep talking about 600-700 years ago history. Yes, Kosovo was a part of Serbia at that time, as man parts of Albania, Greece, Macedonia and Bulgaria were, too, but that doesn't make it a part of Serbia today.

Serbia don't claim anything. Serbia don't need to claim anything. Kosovo is not part of another state. It is part of Serbia for last 50 years. Medieval Kosovo is just the prove that Kosovo was Serbian trough whole history, but that is not important. Important is situation in last 10 (50) years. Now, the things can not be same as before. Kosovo will never be part of Serbia like before, but it should not be independent.

Quote: Why don't you claim the other states, too?

As I said, we don't claim Kosovo. Kosovo is part of Serbia. I can't beleive you say that Kosovo is not part of Serbia. What is it than?

Quote: Kosovo was Illyrian Dardania and there are unlimited resources who prove ALbanians's Illyrian descent

I would try to find something about it. But, I don't understand that nation who lives 3000 thousand years on the same place don't have any written document. It's really funny :))

Quote: I could go on and on, cos there is just so much pro Serbian propganda here, but I'll stop now. After all, I gues the best solution as suggested above is that a very basic neutral article is written and locked to editing, until the Kosovo stauts talks end later this year. Then a proper article can be written. Otherwise, this article is gonna be a battlefield of distasteful propaganda from both sides; and that doesen't do honor to a respectful resource as Wikipedia.

Here, I agree. Just, offcourse I would say pro Albanian (interesting,he?) (maybe both). peace;))

Hey Ilir, I've never said that Kosovo should become independent, and if you asked me I would tell you that Kosovo shouldn't EVER gain independence. But it's not my decision to make, the international community will decide. Do I need to remind you that both Republics of Srpska and Krajina were in their respective teritories 90% Serbian but they never gained independence nor they ever will!!! Think about it... NeroN BG.... p.s. If Kosovo becomes independent, Greater Albania is reality, maybe not today nor tomorrow but sometime in the future it's certain. Noone could expect that 2 German states exist side by side for a longer period of time, so why would the two Albanian states do that???? And, btw, all that Illyrian propaganda, I agree, it's just redicilous. Instead of repeating like a broken record it's about time u started to think about your real origins. Serbs have 2000 years of VERIFIED history, you only have proof that Illyrians lived on ur teritory, like they did elsewhere in the Balkans upon Slavic arival....name one respectable world class scientist who supports the Albanian- Illyrian theory. There are NONE cause it's simply not true and even if it did, it doesn't change the fact that Kosovo was the heartland of Serbian culture between 12th and 17th centuries. It was clearly more or less one nation territory, core of Serbian/Byzantine world.


You Serbs are really something, unbeliveable! Just a feq quick answers:

Quote "Yes, KLA was NATO ally, but they were terrorist army ;) Why can't I create army in my city and fight for its independence? :)" You don't make sense here or like most of the Serbs you're callin NATO and NATO countries terrorists, same as you call KLA and ALbanians. You can't create an army in your city, cos nobody is killing you there on daily basis and your city is not occupied by a foreign illegitimate army. If it were, you would form an army and fight to liberate your city or country. That's what KLA did.

Quote "Serbia don't claim anything. Serbia don't need to claim anything. Kosovo is not part of another state. It is part of Serbia for last 50 years. Medieval Kosovo is ..." Actually Serbia claims Kosovo day and night! Don't you read nay news, or watch the TV at least? Listen to your leaders and hear them claim the Serb rights to Kosovo. You've been misinterpreting the myth of mediveal Kosovo to enforce such claims and you've repeated it so much that you actually believe in it now. Therefore, you should claim Greece if you really love the churches. Hilandar is in Greece and not in Kosovo and it is the most sacred Serbian church, isn't it? And no talk about Raska and Zeta? They are the real Serbian heartlands and not Kosov. Serbia occupied Kosovo after it became a stronger state in Raska and surroundings; emphasize the word OCCUPY! Cos it wasn't yours by default, was it?

Quote "As I said, we don't claim Kosovo. Kosovo is part of Serbia. I can't beleive you say that Kosovo is not part of Serbia. What is it than?"

Well, show me one document that proves that Kosovo is part of Serbia. It was recognized as a part of Yugoslavia by the UN, but there's no word of being part of Serbia in the Un Security Council Resolution 1244 which governs Kosovo. Kosovo was re-occupied by Serbia in 1912 after the Ottoman Empire was crumbling. Nobody asked the Albanians for that, otherwise Kosovo would have long been a part of ALbania, as it was years before. However, your propaganda of a Greater ALbania threat presently is unsubstantiated and nonsense. In both countries, more than 90% of the people want to live in separate states, so that idea is a myth.

Quote "I would try to find something about it. But, I don't understand that nation who lives 3000 thousand years on the same place don't have any written document. It's really funny :))"

Nothing funny about it. Albanians have been occupied and re-occupied by different states and empires who pillaged and destroyed everything they saw in front of them. Only in the time of the de-centralized Ottoman Empire could the Albanians develop their writing thoroughly and it wasn't destroyed cos the Ottomans stayed for 500 years. Everything that existed before them was destroyed by the various armies who oppressed Kosovo. There are no written documents of many other nations and peoples, Dardans/Illyrians are not an exception.

And actually, you all know now that Kosovo will become independent by the end of the year. The West, although with almost 100 years delay, is correcting a big wrong that they allowed to happen in Kosovo, when they legitimized the Serbian occupation at the Treaty of Versaille.

To end with this very funny quote from the other guy: "Serbs have 2000 years of VERIFIED history..." Where on earth did you find that to be true? I'm so curious to know then, whre were teh Serbs in the First Century AD, at the time when the Albanians were accepting Christianity? Where did you exist, what did you do?

I still think that this article should be very basic, unbiased and locked for some time...

Dear chetnicks, Your vodja is dead now. Why don't you all make a consensus that he lost your war and save some face. By making this type of propaganda none will believe you. You will also only harm yourselves. Don't play with numbers. You say that Serbs were 40% at the begining of the century and that Albanians a strong minority was able to expell them, although they were a colonized people of Serbia. Thanks a lot, that gives us a bit more credit than we have. I don't want to repeat things for you. But I can tell you, find something better to do. Stop the propaganda because for as long as you do, you will get reactions

Propaganda? Don't speak about propaganda when you write about Albanian Milos Kopilic? When you write about ethnic cleaning in every second sentence? When in every article about Albania you write about Albanian roots in Kosovo, about Dardanians, and Dardania.. On some Albanian forum, Albanians call Kosovo Dardania... omg..

Quote: Well, show me one document that proves that Kosovo is part of Serbia. It was recognized as a part of Yugoslavia by the UN, but there's no word of being part of Serbia in the Un Security Council Resolution 1244 which governs Kosovo.

I asked you, what is it than?

Quote: To end with this very funny quote from the other guy: "Serbs have 2000 years of VERIFIED history..."....

It's not 2000 years of history, it's 1400. But again, you quote him, and just after that you write that Albanians received Christianity in the 1st century.. :)))) Was Christ Albanian?:))

Quote: Nothing funny about it. Albanians have been occupied and re-occupied by different states and empires who pillaged and destroyed everything they saw in front of them. Only in the time of the de-centralized Ottoman Empire could the Albanians develop their writing thoroughly and it wasn't destroyed cos the Ottomans stayed for 500 years. Everything that existed before them was destroyed by the various armies who oppressed Kosovo. There are no written documents of many other nations and peoples, Dardans/Illyrians are not an exception.

As we can see, no evidence about Illyrian origin.:) All old people who "dissapeared" have merged with other nations. You claim that Albanians are direct descendents from Illyrians! See...

Quote: Actually Serbia claims Kosovo day and night! Don't you read nay news, or watch the TV at least? Listen to your leaders and hear them claim the Serb rights to Kosovo. You've been misinterpreting the myth of mediveal Kosovo to enforce such claims and you've repeated it so much that you actually believe in it now. Therefore, you should claim Greece if you really love the churches.

Again, Kosovo should not be Serbian because of middle age, but because of modern age.. It was part of our country for last 60-70 years. Why should it be other country now? ;)

Quote: You don't make sense here or like most of the Serbs you're callin NATO and NATO countries terrorists, same as you call KLA and ALbanians. You can't create an army in your city, cos nobody is killing you there on daily basis and your city is not occupied by a foreign illegitimate army. If it were, you would form an army and fight to liberate your city or country. That's what KLA did.

First, I don't judge people according to nation, religion etc. No, I don't call NATO countries, countries of terrorist (STUPID!). I just can not understand that you say that KLA fought against FOREIGN ILLEGITIMATE ARMY!!! KLA is legal army than??? You are so good in skewing the facts.. War was not created because Serbs waked up one morning and said "Hey, let's kill Albanians"... We both bare guilt, and we will be free when we both admit our own guilt. KLA fought for Kosovo independence from Serbs, it was not "self-defence" army. Kosovo was not occupied by nobody. Kosovo was Serbian land with major Albanian people. There is "Kosovo" in Kanada, "Kosovo" in Spania, in Croatia...etc...

Quote:Dear chetnicks, Your vodja is dead now.

Chetinicks? Nice(Bad) sense for humor;) Why not partisans???? Our vodja is alive (Boris Tadic). Men, please don't live in history. peace,again;)

-Facts: Albanians comprised a majority of population only after the WWII because of a very extreme birth policies, every family had around 5 kids on average. That's one of the reasons why you just can't say, 'this is democracy, let's give'em a country because there are so many of them now', why basques can't have independence, why serbs in bosnia can't have independence and their own republic (in the case of bosnian serbs, they have a bigger right to ask for the independence because they were always in Republika Srpska (part of Bosnia and Herzegovina), and have always been the majority there. But, the UN, and the Congress in Vienna after the WWII decided that there will be no changes of borders anymore, so let's respect that.

One more thing the policies of Joseph Goebbels are found in Albanian media and politics and not in Serbian, as I mentioned a long time before some albanian accused serbian media of being goebbels-like.

a humble question

I know this is a mildly heated subject but still... The following section of the history-part doesn't coincide very well with other parts of the wikipedia describing these events:

"After the Dayton Agreement and numerous atrocities committed by Serb security forces inside Kosovo, the disillusioned Albanians organized into the Kosovo Liberation Army and started a guerrilla war for liberation. The Serb reaction was stiff in plundering Albanian villages and executing civilians."

Is it possible that whoever wrote this/agrees with this interpretation support some sources? Thanks, andreas_td 00:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC+2)

response

Yes, Serbs DO have a 2000 year long history. Their history in the Balkans is indeed some 1400 years long but that is not when this nation was first mentioned nor formed. Tacitus (ca. 50 AD): described the Serboi tribe near the Caucasus. Pliny (69-75 AD): "... beside the Cimerians live Meotics, Valians, Serbs (Serboi), Zingians, Psesians." (Historia naturalis, VI, c. 7 & 19 Leipzig 1975). Ptolemy (150 AD): " ... between the Keraunian mountains and the river Pa, live the Orineians, Valians and Serbs." (Geographia V, s. 9). Ptolemy also mention the city in Pannonia named Serbinum (present day Bosanska Gradiška in Republika Srpska). In the third century Roman emperor Licinius referred to the Carpathians as 'Montes Serrorum' ("Serb mountains"). It is accepted among most scientists that Serbs as well as Croats are of Iranian origin since the evidences that mention these two people are located in Iran, Afghanistan, Caucausus and Southern Russia (unlike Albanians who have no written proofs of their origins before 12th century). NeroN BG

GOD HIMSELF IS IN THE SIDE OF ALBANIANS. FORTUNATELY, THEY WILL SOON GET THEY'RE INDEPNDENCE...—Preceding unsigned comment added by Petrit Augustini (talk • contribs)

This god you talk about, is he very busy? Albania has been independant since 1913 and it was still there last time I read a history book... Litany


Regarding ALbanian POV pushers...

Article might not be perfect but your provocations make it worse. Wikipedia is not meant to be an Albanian mouthpiece. I have provided references for all my edits. It is not enough reason to delete them simply because they do not benefit your version of the events. Where are all the Admins when you need them? Asterion 21:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Oooooo C(pi)C guy is getting frustrated. Is it because the rat (i.e. president of your party) died in a cell with none to say a prayer for him? I wish I could feel a bit sorry. Don't ask for sysadmins, ask for some brain to fall in your empty skull, as still being a member of SPS is one that has milligrams of brain. as of POV, isn't your insane leader the one who tried to impose that on every nation of ex-Yug??? I will keep reverting, as long as it takes, as many times as it takes, with as many usernames as necessary. Everything for my loving country. Peace! Ilir pz 22:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I am Spanish, not Serb, and have no time for your insults. Hope you get banned soon. Regards, Asterion 22:23, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I did not say you were a Serb, but a supporter of the most insane Serbian party ever founded. Oh, but you support Chavez as well...and peaceful reunification of Yugoslavia? I am sorry to waste time responding to you at all. Ilir pz 22:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, very few people support Milosevic in Serbia, and you know that. Not all Serbian patriots are from his party (most of them are not). The average age of people who support Milosevic is around 60, so it is very unlikely to find anyone of that age here discussing the issue of Kosovo with us. Gianni_ita

I want to believe that. Honestly. Because we are going to be neighbours with Serbia, and want to be good neighbours. I am in one hand sorry for the people of Serbia who, if not Milosevic, support Seselj's party, in large numbers. I heard of figures like over 30% and rising?! As of future status of Kosovo, that will affect very little: relations with a neighbouring country. As of discussing with a supporter of Milosevic, that is User:Asterion. And I was addressing my abovementioned comments to him/her in particular. Cheers, Ilir pz 00:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

And regarding the "patriotism" issue in Serbia, most of those who call themselves a "Serbian patriots" are greatest enemies of the Serbian people, because their goal is to drag Serbia into new wars, which would cause great suffer to the Serbian people. What Serbia need is peace, better economy and more jobs, and not those so called "patriots", which is another word for MAFIA in Serbia. The reasons why wars in the former Yugoslavia started at all is because MAFIA saw these wars as an opportunity to get rich (and war is a perfect opportunity for that indeed). PANONIAN (talk) 21:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I am not supporting the independence of Kosovo. That would be just ridiculous. Gianni_ita

Nobody is asking anyone, but the will of the majority in Kosova, to decide about its future. Especially your opinion is not needed at all, Gianni_ita, in order to determine that :)). Ilir pz 00:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Serbian propaganda machinery

Litany, Asterion and e few other editors amaze me with their prompt reverts. I don't know why they are not banned from Wikipedia. Serbian nationalism and expanssionism has cost Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Kosovars, Macedonians and Serbs so much that it just doesnt make any sense anymore. I would suggest to you two, dear colleagues (and others on your side) to bury Serb expanssionism and extreme nationalism with Milosevic. Kosovo is becoming independent this year, and there is nothing that can stop it. I suggest a pact: Let us work on the Kosovo article. We will let you work on the Serbia and related articles. If you do not agree with the version of the hisory of our country, Kosovo, then we will have to help you improve the entries on Serbia and Serbian history. I believe it's time for all to work together for a better Balkans in the world. Let's leave the past behind. Let's help each other acquire a better image internationally. If we continue with destructiveness, then we pay tribute to Milosevic and the alike. I am kindly begging you, to leave Kosovo to Kosovars. If you stop your obstructiveness, soon I will write a version that will satify both sides. If you want to continue this Wiki-war, I will have to sadly participate in it.

I was never interested much to edit Kosovo article, and I am not interested in it now as well, but I quite often read this talk page usually to laugh about this Serb-Albanian arguing. It is bad that both, Serb and Albanian users who participate in this edit war think that Wikipedia is a best place for propaganda wars. I do not know who you are, but I do not like your threat that you will "help" about Serbia-related articles, because some Serbs "helping" you about Kosovo article. First, you can see that these Serbs who "helping" you did not edited much these Serbia-related articles, but most of their edits are related to Kosovo, while most of other Serb users who had much edits in Serbia-related articles, mostly did not edited Kosovo article. My point is that if you vandalize Serbia-related articles as you threat, you will not vandalize the work of these editors with whom you have edit war here, but work of other editors which did not participated in edit war with you. So, you first learn with whom you have dispute here and with whom not, and the second thing is that vandalizing any article on Wikipedia only because you have personal dispute with somebody is not quite accetable behaviour here. As for Kosovo article, the only solution for it is to be permanently locked until the final status of Kosovo is solved, and that only administrators edit this article, and to post in it only NPOV sentences about which both, Albanian and Serb users who participate in this dispute will agree. Opinions about this proposal? PANONIAN (talk) 00:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


Albanian propaganda machinery

Why don't we talk about the other side a little bit more. Are you aware of the Albanian extreme nationalism (which is from time to time closer to terrorism). It had already claimed hundreds of thousands victims only in Kosovo. Mostly Serbs, but also Roma (Gypsies), and others. It killed numerous Macedonians, and is threatening to do the same with Greeks in northern Greece.

The idea of Great Serbia, was Milosevic's horrible idea that had many followers in the beginning, unfortunately people became aware of the atrocities of these wars started by Serbian forces only too late. Although I sympathize with all the families who lost someone in these wars, one thing must be mentioned, and it is that Serbs had at least 20 times more killed by Croat and Muslim forces in the WWII. But I do not want to measure how much someone is guilty by subtracting these numbers, both sides should be ashamed equaly.

Now, let's go back to the Albanian terrorism. It's origins are much deeper in time, and because of that it has many more followers in Albania and in Albanian population in Kosovo. Since the end of the WWII Albanians used the goodwill of ex Yugoslavian president, Josip Broz Tito, who opened the borders of Serbia to all the Albanians, and gave this Serbian province autonomy. Albanians came in huge numbers because the living standard in Serbia at that time was about 3 times that of Albania. In the end of the WWII there were as many Serbs in Kosovo as there were Albanians. In the '60 the number of albanians rised and they started rioting and asking for the independence, the life for the Serbian population was a hell. And now here we are, we've got 88% of albanians and around 8%of Serbs there. Why? Maybe because of shortlived Serbian nationalism. Or maybe because of the a long time ago planned Great Albania.

And just one more thing. Being Kosovar is not anyones nationality. It just means that you come from Kosovo. There are only kosovar albanians, kosovar serbs.... Gianni_ita

anyone checking these unnamed additions? are these allowed? additionally they provide no sources for their speculations, like "Serbs had at least 10 times more killed by Croat and Muslim forces in the WWII." or "Since the end of the WWII Albanians used the goodwill of ex Yugoslavian president, Josip Broz Tito, who opened the borders of Serbia to all the Albanians, and gave this Serbian province autonomy." and offences such as "Albanian terrorism"? I propose to erase such comments. Ilir pz 00:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear albanian reader, here come the facts, although you were aware of them even before. The official site of Jasenovac http://www.ushmm.org (concentration camp in Croatia for the non croatian population, majority of them were serbs) says that the number of serbs killed by the croats was from 330,000 to 390,000.

Why would the word albanian terrorism offend you, both serbian and albanian regimes turned to paramilitary terrorist forces.

And about Tito, I don't know what is not clear to you. Read history a little bit more from any western book, and you will see. Gianni_ita

Working for a less biased article

Quite clearly anything that contradicts your views will be deleted. I have provided references for all of my edits, which any non-partisan wikipedian could follow up if interested. I don't feed trolls'. Best response to inflammatory remarks is to ignore them. Your threats have been noticed too. Regards, Asterion 22:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)