Talk:Korsun-Cherkassy Pocket

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[edit] One sided-ness

This entire article is German POV as if the Red Army wasn't there. DMorpheus 01:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree - this article needs some serious work to reflect the Soviet decision-making process and actions, and to reduce the sinlge focus on the German side. Andreas 19:45, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The article is written to much from the german perspective.

Paul Carell (Author of Scorched Earth) was in reality Paul Karl Schmidt - SS_Obersturmbannfuehrer, and a well-known nazi propagandist in Ribbentrops minsistry (e.g. press secretary). He justifies the holocaust during the war (esp. the murder of hungarian jews) and denied german war crimes against the soviet people in his after-war life as author of his "wehmacht" books. He was one of the guys, blaming Hitler and his fatal decisions alone for the lost war ("Stalingrad myth"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.191.207.241 (talk • contribs)

There is the Soviet General Staff Study for the Soviet side, but it is very flawed. A google search will turn up Zetterling's critacism of it.

The account on the main page does however track well with Nash' Hell's Gate; which is a meticulously researched book based on the German archives. The various units papers from that period were well preserved.

While short, do note the author did not state much about the soviet losses or anything else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Epaminondas (talk • contribs)

Im concerned about the part reflecting the brutality of the Soviet soldiers and the bravery of a German officer saving his men. No war is not brutal. In battlefiled, as a matter of fact, if you dont kill, maybe you will be killed later. But it is a little unneccessary to accuse the Soviet, who lost more than 30 million of their own to, along side with other Allied nations, defeat the Axis. Although the author try to avoid saying it (by saying "the brutality of war" instead of "of the Soviet"), but I think this article is a little pro-Nazi, in which the Germans all appeared as heroes and victims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawkie (talk • contribs)
That's what happens when your main source of information is from Paul Carell. Anyone know some good books on Korsun from the Soviet or neutral perspective? TheCheeseManCan 16:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The article has very little value as it is now. Even number of German loses is given according to German claims while recent research indicates that Soviet estimates are reliable while German are not. See Glantz, House. When Titans Clashed, p. 188.Germans claimed that 30,000 of their troops escaped while according to the Soviet accounts 55,000 Germans were killed or wounded and 18,000 became prisoners. I will revise the article. Also, there is no a need for description of German heroics by individual soldiers, there were also remarkable stories of Russian soldier deeds. Let to describe main actions of the operations. E. W. 6.5.06

(see Hell's Gate Numbers)

[edit] Sources

The repetitive “exposure” of author Paul Carell at every mention of his pen name as the former SS man and propaganda writer Paul Karl Schmidt is redundant and skewed -- all this is properly identified and sufficiently belabored on the Paul Carell page. The discussion here seems to suggest that the sole purveyors of facts, of valid estimates and historical truths can only be the scribes of J. Stalin. All Carell books include extensive lists of participants who supplied information and photographs from various campaigns and therefore represent a source as legitimate as the communist (or now ex-communist) historians of the former Soviet bloc.--Gamahler 19:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The dismissal of Soviet, let alone post-Soviet, military historions as Stalin's scribes apart from being vulgarly offensive is also patently idiotic. None of the Soviet, much the less post-Soviet sources cited in any recent article, weather here or elsewhere, are works published in Stalin's time. The preposterously fallacious military literature published in Stalin's era, along with the Cold War atmosphere, made it possible for German-partisan military-historical propagandists to market their "brilliant and noble Wehrmacht" mythology unchallenged. The publication of credible Soviet military histories following Stalin's demise and up to Brezhnyev ascendency, was a challenge to which they responded by labeling all Soviet military writers as Stalinists. As far as whorishly cheap propaganda goes this is fairly effective. Otherwise it is intellectually worthless. It is sad for German partisans that this cheap trick is no longer admired, and that the thinking world has come to dismiss almost all of the West German accounts of the Nazi-Soviet front as the rubbish , often fabricated by ill-disguised unreformed Nazis, fellow travelers and downright war criminals (Manstein, Guderian and so foth). With German history writing fast abandoning apologia in other aspects of the era in question, it may soon come to pass that Wehrmacht worshippers would be faced with valid military historiography of the Nazi-Soviet front emanating from Germany itself. Where would you be then, my poor ducklings?! In order to pre-empt such traumas just accept that the like of Paul Carrel the like no longer have anything to offer us, and embrace the works of David Glantz and company. It is high time isn't it?. Well so long, and don' be iritated when this article is thoroghly revised as it must. Soz


[edit] Rewrite and Edit

It is my intent to assist in the edits of the Cherkassy-Korsun page. Douglas E. Nash’s Hell’s Gate is required reading for anyone trying to understand this Red Army victory and Wehrmacht disaster. I may start this effort with correcting the spelling of Stemmermann throughout and use American military rank terminology, etc., even though a Wehrmacht Generalleutnant is not the equivalent of a U.S. Army Lieutenant General on a comparison chart. The ranks of company grade and field grade officers are clearer. The Waffen-SS inherited its arcane titles of rank from the SA - and equivalent Army ranks may be more useful. Even with prior protestations on record here, it essentially will remain more of a German story. Outnumbered at least 4 to 1 in manpower, and in heavy equipment in odds truly enormous, it is remarkable that any escape from the Pocket succeeded at all. Numbers of dead, wounded, captured and missing remain controversial, with Soviet/Russian historians claiming to know more about German losses than their own. Other sources place greater value on German data, since Wehrmacht troops were issued identity disks (similar to U.S. Army “dog tags”) worn by each soldier, whose fate could hopefully be reported to a central personnel register. The huge pools of manpower of the Red Army had no such refinements in place at that time.--Gamahler 03:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The “Korsun-Cherkassy Pocket” page was tagged POV by Mgaved on 22 April 2006 without discussion or any other contribution. I am proposing to remove the tag. Please consider to comment. Thanks.--Gamahler 03:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

IMO the tag should be retained. The article is still very - nearly completely - concerned with German operations. Too, there is no strategic context showing how this battle fit into the campaign. Finally there are POV-ish statements, citing the heroism of German troops while the Red Army is depicted as simply a 'wall of T-34s'. And yes, I am as guilty as anyone of letting this situation stand ;) DMorpheus 14:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Removed POV tag. I have no problem with German heroism based on survival; I have no problem with Soviet heroism based on the certainty of victory. Walls of T34s and hub-to-hub artillery emplacements profoundly influenced Group Stemmermann’s escape route; if this is insufficient, then an elaboration would be helpful beyond a mea culpa for not contributing. Stavka’s sledgehammer blows had their own crucial quality as Zhukov as their representative, and Konev and Vatutin as able practitioners clearly proved. Certainly by early 1944 (more likely since Kursk or even Stalingrad) the outcome of the German-Soviet conflagration was sealed. Strategy anyone?--Gamahler 04:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing propaganda

I removed "No quarter was given by either side, the T-34s running down wounded men and those who surrendered." No quarter being given from eitehr side was rather the norm on the Eastern front, no? and "T-34s running down wounded men and those who surrendered." is for all purposes claiming that it was done on purpose, and not simply incidents boudn to happen in the chaos of the battle. Most importantly I remember reading it in a book by Paul Carell, and if that is the only source for it, forget about it.

[edit] Hell's Gate Numbers

I stand by the German figures as stated in my book, "Hell's Gate." The Soviet Union's claims of the number of Germans killed is wildly inflated. Ration strength of the German forces in the Korsun area immediately prior to the encirclement was approximately 65,000 men. The rest is simple math. The number of survivors that I mention in the appendix of Hell's Gate is a result of daily tabulations made by staff officers of First Panzer Army in order to determine the amount of rations to request to feed the men coming out of the pocket. These figures were not publicized and indeed were buried in the First Panzer Army's daily strength reports annex to the Kriegstagebuch. The staff officers and NCOs in the First Panzer Army's personnel staff section who compiled these figures had no motivation to inflate the numbers of men trickling in each day after the breakout; indeed, they would have been rightly punished if they had done so. The tabulations I show are the cumulative result of their efforts. You can also track the number of men day by day as they were shipped out of the assembly areas after the battle, as each train carrying them lists the number of men on each train and their units. While the number of Germans that the Soviets claim are way off, the number of captured roughly correspond to the reality - some 49,000 Germans were carried on the daily strength of Gruppe Stemmermann on 16 February; 36,263 made it out. Roughly 13,000 or so were left behind by 18 February, being either dead or taken prisoner. The Soviets claimed 18,000 prisoners, which would include men taken captive from 24 January until the breakout began on 16 February. Douglas E. Nash, 13 October 2007.

The above Nash paragraph appears to address comments by the anonymous editor E.W.6.5.06. Edits by E.W.6.5.06 were long ago superseded or corrected or amended with sourced data. The Nash contribution seems inappropriate under the heading “One sided-ness.”--Gamahler 02:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV redux

The Korsun page has undergone major changes and additions of sourced information in over two dozen footnotes. In my opinion the POV tag is no longer pertinent, perhaps it has not been appropriate for quite a while now. Korsun was a Soviet victory - but a German story; just as Bataan was a Japanese victory - but an American story. I proffer to remove the tag.--Gamahler 01:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

With respect, Strongly disagree. Yes, the article is better-sourced than in the past, but that wasn't the issue. There is simply no justification for making this article a "german story" any more than writing the Bataan article as a 'US story'. It is the very definition of POV. DMorpheus 13:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, however, this should not be an exchange again exclusively between DMorpheus and myself. In my view, Wiki’s POV explanations and a “German story” or “American story” within an event based on the available literature are compatible. The outcome of the battle – and build-up towards the conclusion – after all is presented clear and unambiguous with proper citations. Hopefully other contributors will chime in and express their thoughts.--Gamahler 21:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Globalise Tag

I've slightly changed the tag, which may assist. The Soviet side of the story needs expanding; barely any Soviet formations are mentioned, nor plans, changes as a result of the battlefield situation etc. Comments welcome, but I would request that anyone seeking to change the tag again explain their reasons here and wait for further comments for a few days first. Regards Buckshot06 (talk) 09:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree this tag is at least as good as the old one, and I agree with your characterization of the article. regards, DMorpheus (talk) 14:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)