Talk:Koreans in China

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Contents

[edit] Chaoxianzu

1) Chosun, Chosen, Chaoxianzu all three words means Korean race. The word Chosun is ancient word for Koreans and Korea. ( Ko-Chosun, Chosun Dynasty). For centuries Koreans have been living in Northeast China and Japan then any other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bostonasia (talk • contribs) 02:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


We should probably change the title of this article. "Chaoxianzu" is the Chinese word for "Korean people", i.e. ethnic Koreans living Korea, China, or elsewhere. Saying "Chaoxianzu Korean" is like saying "Etnia coreana Korean" to mean Latin Americans of Korean descent. Nevertheless, this is a nice little article (thanks, Yuje), so we don't need to merge it. Maybe we could move it to Koreans in China or Korean Chinese, along the lines of Korean American? - Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where should this page move to?

Here are the options I can think of

  1. Koreans in China (somewhat ambiguous with Korean exchange students, businessmen, etc.)
  2. Korean Chinese (following the pattern of Korean American, etc.
  3. Sino-Korean people or Sino-Koreans
  4. Joseonjok (according to the article, this term is used in South Korea to refer to the people in question. This is simply the Korean pronunciaton of Chaoxianzu, but it seems to have a more specific meaning in Korean than it does in Chinese.)

Any other ideas? - Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I've moved to Korean Chinese. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 06:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Given that phrases like Indonesian Chinese and Thai Chinese (the two largest groups of overseas Chinese) both refer to Chinese people, not Indonesians or Thais, calling this article Korean Chinese could be confusing. Especially since there are ethnic Chinese in Korea as well. cab 05:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Indonesian Chinese??? Should be Chinese Indonesian, Thai Chinese? Ha Ha, Thai (Dai people) is a definitely one of 56 nationalities in People's Republic of China. But there are still some Han Chinese in Thailand (Chinese Thai). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.20.223 (talk • contribs) 2006-07-26 11:28:57
shrugs Fair enough, what's your suggestion? —Nightstallion (?) 11:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Any other regular contributors to this page got input? I just got here yesterday when I was looking for information about ethnic Koreans in China, which is why I started beating this dead horse again. My suggestion would be either Chaoxianzu (indigenous name in China, no ambiguity about who it's talking about, unless of course you don't speak Chinese), or Ethnic Koreans in China (clear about what country and ethnic group it's talking about, and it's more specific than just "Koreans in China" which includes generic Korean businessmen or students). This page should probably be a disambiguation, like what I've taken the liberty of doing for Chinese Korean (formerly a redirect to Korean people).
Also while we're at it, there are many ethnic Koreans from China who have returned to Korea as migrant workers, mail-order brides, etc. --- if that's worth an article (I have a few decent sources), what should it be called? Chinese Korean Koreans? Korean Chinese Koreans? Ethnic Koreans from China in Korea? cab 12:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest Ethnic Koreans in China. While Chaoxianzu is the pinyin of the official Chinese name for the group, I think in English, the Chinese government still calls them "Korean". Or at least, People's Daily does that[1]. The problem with using Chaoxianzu is that some editors may insist that Joseonjok would be a better name. This seems to be the problem sometimes, with naming articles by the romanisation of their native names - those names are used in different languages and so there are more than one romanisation (For example: White Tiger (Chinese constellation) was used by ancient Chinese, Korean, and Japanese cartographers. For all intents and purposes, there is only one name for it, but it can be romanised many different ways).
And you raised an interesting point about Koreans from China moving elsewhere. But at that point, the ambiguity goes beyond the naming convention itself. Do they still self-identify as Chaoxianzu? What if they obtain Korean or another non-Chinese citizenship? --- Hong Qi Gong 16:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I just realised there is a precedence for naming an article like this - Zainichi Korean. So maybe Chaoxianzu Korean? I'm not sure anymore. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

my basic assumption, i guess, was that the first term describes ethnicity and second legal citizenship or residence, from the hyphenated american examples. but the bbc uses "indonesian chinese" to refer to ethnic chinese living in indonesia. maybe it's the difference of the hyphen: "Chinese-Americans" are the same as "American Chinese". so grammatically, this article should actually be named Chinese Korean.
to stop the brain-twisting, i like Ethnic Koreans in China. Appleby 21:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The "Chinese Korean" style of phrasing seems to be common in American English, while "Korean Chinese" phrasing seems preferred in Commonwealth English. I don't think Ethnic Koreans in China is neccessarily a good title, since there's some half million or so SK expats in China who could also be considered part of this. Maybe move back to either Chaoxianzu or Joseonjok, which is the term preferred by both China and the Koreas, and is common enough in literature. --Yuje 05:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
"Ethnic xyz" (meaning "of xyz descent") seems to be fairly easily distinguished from plain old "xyz". E.g. Ethnic German. Also, if you google "ethnic Korean" or "ethnic Chinese" or whatever, aside from the redirects on Wiki from Ethnic Korean to Korean people or Ethnic Chinese to Han Chinese (a redirect with which I disagree), all the top results are about communities of Korean/Chinese descent overseas, e.g. Zainichis, Soviet Koreans, etc. not students or expats. cab 07:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure the Chinese XYZ example is a good example for this article. Firstly, the Chinese in the US, Canada, maybe Australia are the only ones that use Chinese XYZ. Almost everybody else use XYZ Chinese. Which means that if anything, XYZ Chinese would be a better example (so the article would be named Chinese Korean).

Secondly, this XYZ Chinese convention is also used by academia. There has been plenty of academic studies on the Overseas Chinese, and XYZ Chinese seems to be the commonly used term, as opposed to Chinese XYZ. To the best of my knowledge at least, there hasn't been as much academic studies done on Overseas Koreans, and I'm not aware of any naming convention for them. --- Hong Qi Gong 01:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

So can we get a concise idea of what everyone prefers to name this article? I like either "Ethnic Koreans in China" or "Chaoxianzu" (like how "Zainichi Korean" is named, with the Japanese term, whereas "Chaoxianzu" is a Chinese term used by the government). --- Hong Qi Gong 19:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer Ethnic Koreans in China. cab 12:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
"Chaoxianzu" is quite ambiguous, because it is the Chinese word for Korean people, including the people who live in Korea (zh.wikipedia says, "朝鲜族又称韩族和高丽族，是东亚主要民族之一。朝鲜族人主要居住在朝鲜半岛的朝鲜、韩国、中国和俄罗斯远东地区。其余散居美国、日本等世界各地。). The trouble with "ethnic Koreans in China" is, as someone else has pointed out, Korean Chinese remain Korean Chinese even if they leave China. I don't see any very good options, but I still think Korean Chinese is the least bad.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 00:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I suggested Chaoxianzu in that it would follow the convention set by Zainichi Korean - that article is about ethnic Koreans in Japan and the article name uses the Japanese term that refers to them. And I must disagree that Korean Chinese is the least bad because at the very least, that is more likely to suggest ethnic Chinese people in Korea.
I do agree that there is a degree of ambiguity/confusion in "ethnic Koreans in China", but as I've pointed out, if they move out of China, the ambiguity goes beyond just the naming at that point. For example, if they actually changed citizenship from Chinese to, say, Korean or American, are they still Chaoxianzu? Anyway, I'm going to be changing the article name to Ethnic Koreans in China in several more days, pending any new discussion. Both User:CaliforniaAliBaba and I seem to agree that it would be better than the current name. --- Hong Qi Gong 15:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
But "Zainichi" means "in Japan", so Zainichi Korean has a quite specific meaning. "Chaoxianzu" just means "Korean".—Nat Krause(Talk!) 07:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how that makes a difference. Why isn't the article just named "Koreans in Japan" instead of "Zainichi Korean"? Instead, the Japanese name for ethnic Koreans in Japan is used. (And actually, Chaoxianzu is more accurately translated as "ethnic Joseon people".) --- Hong Qi Gong 15:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, Zainichi is a slightly more specific term than "Koreans in Japan", because it implicitly excludes tourists and other visitors, etc. On the other hand "Chaoxianzu" is less specific than "Koreans in China", because Chaoxianzu includes Korean people anywhere.
As for Joseon, well, "Chaoxian" is the everyday Chinese word for North Korea, and Joseon is the North Korean word for Korea as a whole.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
No, Bei Han (北韓) is the everyday Chinese word for North Korea. And Han Guo Ren (韓國人) is the everyday Chinese word for "Korean". But I conceed I don't know if Chaoxianzu is also used for Koreans without Chinese citizenship as well. However, I still think Ethnic Koreans in China is less confusing than Korean Chinese. --- Hong Qi Gong 22:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I hadn't been aware of this before just now, but, according to Names of Korea, Bei Han is used in Taiwan and Hong Kong, whereas Chaoxian is used on the mainland. I don't know anything first hand about how the term Chaoxianzu is normally used, but I would refer you again to the Chinese Wikipedia article that I quoted above. Also, note that Korean people interwikis to zh:朝鲜族 and vice versa.
Any of "Korean Chinese", "ethnic Koreans in China", etc. are fine with me.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Names of Korea says that PRC newspapers are using Chaoxian for North Korea. But I'm really doubting that's the term used by people in everyday conversation. I'll take it on face value though, as I can't remember ever talking about Korea while I was in mainland China. As for "朝鲜族" being the name of the article for "Korean people" on Chinese wikipedia - well, I actually disagree with that naming. Also, I noticed there isn't even a Chinese article specifically for Korean ethnic minorities in China. The zh:朝鲜族 article is actually already mostly about ethnic Koreans in China, so I guess its name makes a lot of sense given that fact. The only information it has about Korean people actually outside of China is population size. --- Hong Qi Gong 23:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 In Chinese Chaoxian means "Chosun" old Korean Kingdom or Dynasty. The word "Zu" means people.
 Choxianzu means " Chosun people". Chinese called Koreans Chaoxian.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Typeking (talk • contribs) 2007-05-27 01:12:27

[edit] Inaccurate information?

Since one editor expressed his/her concern that some of the information in this article may be inaccurate, let's go over them then. Krnc, would you list which sections you have concerns with, the nature of the inaccuracy, and your sources justifying this? I don't mind correcting inaccurate information, but entire sections, such as the information on population statistics, simply just got blanked. --Yuje 20:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You can see <<中国朝鲜族历史研究>>延边大学出版社 1994. Krnc.
Ok, thanks. I'll try to look for the article, but of course, it would help a lot if you specifically mentioned which parts of the article you thing is inaccurate, so everyone can know what to look for. --Yuje 21:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Korean Chinese doesn't need to live in Yanbian to be recognized as one of the China's ethnic minority. Many other ethnic minorities in China don't have automonous regions. Manchu's Qing didn't rule Joseon Korea directly, not mention enslavement. The Japanese didn't migrate Koreans in the beging years of Manchukou. There were no identification system in China before 1958. It is quite absurd for you to say those Koreans were granted citizenship in 1957. There are only less than 2 million Korean Chinese, vast majority of who live in China. They don't need a world wide population distribution in the article. Illegal immigration is a matter of different nature.

The Jurchens had a society which held slaves, which they captured from raids on their neighbors. The Qing didn't legalize immigration until 1865. Those who came before then were illegal citizens. And yes, they did in fact get their citizenship in 1957. Those 250,000 who live in South Korea aren't citizens of South Korea, they're temporary migrant workers, who retain PRC citizenship. They're not NK refugees who happened to pass through China. The SK constitution regards its territory as the entire peninsula, including the territory of North Korea, so NK refugees are given citizenship, while ethnic Koreans from other countries, such as China, North America, and Central Asia, aren't automatically considered citizens. The 250,000 number counts the ones in the latter category who aren't SK citizens. It seems that you're the one that seems to be wrong. I'll wait to change the article back until I have to time to rewrite it to include the appropriate cites, but of course I expect you to back up your assertions as well.--Yuje 06:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The discrimation thing you want to add should be added to the South Korean people page. Since South Korea is a small country, it doesn't welcome foreigners and returned Koreans. Wiki is not a place for some South Korean ethnic extremests to attack possible potential immigrants.

[edit] "Korean Chinese are ethnic Koreans living in the People's Republic of China."

"Korean Chinese are ethnic Koreans living in the People's Republic of China."

This phrase is inaccurate and has been modified. Korean Chinese are ethnic Koreans with PRC citizenship (Chinese citizenship), they consider themselves Chinese first (中国人), and the vast majority today were born in China. Western media would call them Chinese also. The ethnic Korean Cui Jian is a Chinese rocker, not a "Korean" rocker. Some Korean Chinese do not even live in the PRC, such as the tens of thousands of Korean Chinese living in South Korea, but they are still considered Korean Chinese. Whereas South Korean citizens living in the PRC do not consider themselves Korean Chinese. 128.135.96.213 19:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved

Ok, I've moved the article. --- Hong Qi Gong 19:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

I don't know how many ethnic Koreans in China actually speak Korean and/or Mandarin. But one thing for sure, Mandarin is taught in schools all across China, so at the very least, most of them do speak it. I say "most", and not "all" here because there is the matter of refugees/illegal immigrants from North Korea, who I assume would not speak Mandarin. But it is questionable whether or not they should be considered a part of Chaoxianzu.

I know that Korean is allowed to be used in government in autonomous regions like Yanbian, but is it taught in schools in these regions? Does anybody know? --- Hong Qi Gong 19:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot Korean Schools in China that teach in Korean. Yanbian University also teach in Korean. Besides the language here refers to their own language, no matter they speak it or not. Otherwise all the ethnic groups in China speak Chinese. Eanik 19:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure a lot of ethnic Koreans in China consider Chinese to be "their own language", especially if they did not grow up in Yanbian. However I do see that the Ethnic Group box for all the other ethnic minorities in China do not list Standard Mandarin as one of their languages. This is something that I actually disagree with. I think Standard Mandarin should be listed in all of them, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to go and edit all of them. --- Hong Qi Gong 19:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems like it would become a controversial point in some cases. With regard to the ethnic Koreans, it doesn't seem very controversial to me. Maybe someone else will think it's controversial, though. I notice that Manchu lists "Chinese" as one of their languages, while Zhuang lists only Zhuang language and "others?".—Nat Krause(Talk!)

[edit] North Korean defectors

On the surface, at least to me personally, it seems kind of disingenuous to leave no mention in this article of North Korean defectors. But I don't really know how much interactions they have with the ethnic Korean minorities in China, so may be it's irrelevant to mention them. If I had to take a wild guess though, I would think that many of them have blended in with the ethnic Korean population in northeast China. Anybody have sources that discuss this? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. With Han Chinese already outnumbering the "legal" Koreans even in Yanbian, and with a steady trickle of refugees crossing the rivers, the latter perhaps constitute an important group not only in the area's demographic makeup by their sheer numbers, but also in the local economy. I'd guess a number of businesses take advantage of their status as illegals; other refugees perhaps work as smugglers or escape agents. Those that cannot speak enough Chinese to pass as natives probably have no choice. Anything on social and economic relations between the three groups (Han, natives, refugees) would be nice to have in the article. Wikipeditor 02:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

There's already an 80 page report (Haggard et al) in the biblio, half of which is devoted to the topic of North Korean refugees in China. That should be used to develop North Korean defectors, which is right now almost entirely unsourced. This article is supposed to discuss the pre-1949 immigrant population; adding too much about NK refugees, except to the extent that it relates with Chaoxianzu, would unbalance it. Also remember that there's almost 900k Chaoxianzu in Yanbian alone, and 2 million nationwide; the number of NK refugees throughout the entire country is estimated at an order of magnitude less. cab 02:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a trivia subject. I've moved these information to trivia section. It is not what this article is meant for. They shouldn't be listed in the intro. Rrcn 03:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The intro is supposed to define a topic. That includes what it is, and what it isn't. Look at WP:LEAD. The paragraph you moved to "Trivia" is a part of that definition. It is not a "Trivia" topic; try reading the Haggard report in the sources, which details a lot of interactions that NK refugees have with Also the sentence you keep restoring is very awkward in its phrasing. I'm increasingly disinclined to listen to your opinions since most of your contributions [2][3] consist of deleting sourced material (including the estimates of the number of NK refugees, which you sneakily deleted while moving the paragraph into the "trivia" section) or insulting other people's English skills while making the English actually worse [4] instead of seeking to find a way to integrate new information into the article and improve it. Not to mention insulting comments like this.

cab 03:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The intro definitely should define the topic, which refers to Koreans who are Chinese citizens. North Korean refugees are only relevant information. They should be in Trivia section. Rrcn 03:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] This article should not be in WikiProject Korea

Korean Chinese is Chinese citizen and has no Korean nationality, if they acquire Korean nationality then they will lose Chinese citizenship.

There are many ethnic Chinese oversea, can all topics related to oversea Chinese groups are in WikiProject China?

Also, NK defectors should not be counted as this topic! They are temporarily refugee! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.77.64.117 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 27 February 2007

Sign your posts with ~~~~. As detailed in that extremely long report at the end, NK defectors have some interaction with chaoxianzu, so they are worth a mention. It's also clarified there that they are not counted as chaoxianzu by the census and don't hold Chinese citizenship. Second, yes, in fact, many overseas populations are classified under the WikiProject of their ancestral country as well as that of their country of residence, since they have a particular significance in history of their ancestral country, their migration affected relations between the two countries, or various other reasons. cab 21:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Li Chengliang and his children ethnic Koreans?

Were Li Chengliang and his children actually ethnic Koreans? I remember reading before that Li Chengliang had fourth or fifth generation Korean ancestry, so it's possible that he might be of mixed Chinese and Korean descent instead of an ethnic Korean. --Yuje 06:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems a bit silly to me to include historic persons with questions over their heritage (e.g. Gao Xianzhi and Li Chengliang) in this category. Their descendants in China, should there be any, have long become assimiliated. I propose that only those with relatively recent, definitely clearly identifiable heritage be kept under this category. H27kim 20:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Li Chengliang is Korean. Even if his wife is Han Chinese, his children are considered of Korean ethnic because the nationality of the children follow that of their father's in China and in most of the world. Coasilve (talk) 04:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Korean-Manchurian

Korean-Manchurian: Some scholars say Korean-Manchurian or Manchurian Korean descents are actually scattered all over North East China or China. Total population probably be 107,430,000 million Korean Manchurian descents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bostonjj (talk • contribs) 04:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Population

Yanbian/ The Autonomous Korean Prefecture of Yanbian, Jilin Province.

We extend the phrase- Third Korea- to include the Korean-Chinese minority in China of whom there are probably about 4 million. (21/09/99) ( www.eab.co.uk/yanbian). Major migrations of Koreans into Manchuria have been 1) 1382, 2)1860,3)1945. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koreametro1 (talk • contribs) 09:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


Korean population in China should be updated in 1990 2.4 million Korean-Chinese. In 2007 Korean-Chinese population is around 3.5 million. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bostonjj (talk • contribs) 07:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Please point to a source per our policy on verifiability. cab (talk) 07:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)