Talk:Konstantin Rokossovsky

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1 Birthplace
2 northern Poland and Germany
3 Stalin and Rokossovsky, WWII, Moscow
4 "his own request"
5 Spelling

[edit] Birthplace

Some sources give his birthplace as Warsaw, Poland , for example MSN Encarta:

Encarta article

Clearly birthplace needs checking. Balcer 00:41, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Clearly it does. What do you think, should we remove it until we figure it out, or gamble that no readers are misinformed in the meantime? It needs a better intro anyway, it just goes straight into early life details without a summary. Everyking 11:44, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Polish wiki and the museum of People's Republic mention Warsaw as his birthplace with all certainity. However, this article on the city of Gdańsk webpage says that according to part of the sources he was born in Warsaw. Halibu tt 17:44, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

There are several detailed biographies of Rokossovsky at the Marshals of the Soviet Union website, which say he was born in Russia of a Polish father but grew up in Warsaw. Polish sources cannot be trusted on matters like this. Adam 15:15, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Glad to see Poles have finally taken control of Microsoft's Encarta. It is high time :). More seriously, Rokossovsky is a strongly disliked figure in Poland, and I think most Poles who hold views antagonistic to Russia would probably prefer to deny that he was born in Poland. Anyway, it does not much matter where exactly in the Russian Empire he was born. His claim to Polish nationality was very tenuous, but it was played up when he became Poland's Minister of Defence in the 1950s. Balcer 15:54, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't dispute that. I only dispute his birthplace. Of the available sources, I prefer the ones I used when I wrote the article. Adam 15:59, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Since his father was Polish and he grew up in Warsaw, most sources will probably assume he was born there, but since he lived most of his life in the Soviet Union, I am inclined to believe the Soviet sources cited, which have no reason to lie about this and which are presumably based on information provided by Rokossovsky himself. On the other hand Halibutt says he has seen the birth certificate showing he was born in Warsaw. If this is so it is probably persuasive, although I would like to know the certificate's provenance given that one can think of an obvious motive to falsify this during his time as Polish Defence Minister. Adam 06:29, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Nope, you got me wrong. I have not seen his birth certificate, I merele used this example to try to better understand your logic behind trusting second-hand sources just because they're "not Polish" while apparently disregarding original sources. But it was just an example, a rhetorical figure if you prefer to put it that way. Halibu tt 09:19, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

In that case I revert to my previous position that the Soviet sources are more reliable and that he was born in Russia. Adam 09:26, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Adam, you consider SOVIET sources to eb reliable, and POlish not? I welcome you to correct articles about Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, defense of Russia gainst Polish agression in Polish-Bolshevik 1920/21 war (oops, i meant 1921) etc. As a sidenote, I thought you stopped to have this strange trait of your personality yto judge someone's reliability solely basing on his name ending with "ski" or "cki" Szopen 10:04, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

On this question, yes I do. On others, perhaps not. It depends. Adam 10:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

*gasp* - that you said depends is the only reason I am will not consider you totaly biased. Still, I'd like to hear your explanation on 'why Polish sources can't be trusted on a matter like this'. And plz define a 'matter like this'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:03, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

according to the Polish National Biography he was born in Warsaw. I think wiki en. should stick to that, as I did in wiki.de. The excerpt from the speech in 1949 must be Zymierski's voice, Kostia spoke Polish with a distinct Russian or Border (kresowy) accent. You make no mention of the fact that Kostia came from old Polish nobility and that all his forefathers in the 19th century served in Polish cavalry. I am sorry to say that my German article seeems to be much better.

--Alexvonf 13:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] northern Poland and Germany

I believe that "northern" was the Soviet Group, but it was stationed in whole Poland and Soviet Zone of Germany. Xx236 11:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)== WWII, Stalin and Rokossovsky, Moscow ==

[edit] Stalin and Rokossovsky, WWII, Moscow

Regarding the discussion between Rokossovsky and Stalin whether to use one or two attack-vectors in the strike against the Germans near Moscow, in his book "Stalin", Simon Sebag Montefiore describes a very similar situation taking place two years later, during the planning of the summer-offensive of 1944.

The generals are planning a push near Bobrujsk, central Belarus. Here, Stalin wishes a single attack along one front, with Rokossovsky standing to Stalin, arguing for attacking from two angles at once. Rokossovsky is sent out to rethink several times, but in the end, Stalin gives way, and they settle on a two-pronged attack. The attack takes place on june 23d, 1944, and the Germans are pushed back, losing most of Belarus.

The two incidents are too similar. I believe you and Montefiore are describing the same situation, but with some confusion regarding the details. Montefiore seems to get his version from "Stalin and his generals", by Seweryn Bialer, who in turn uses Rokossovskys memoirs as his source.

Ps. Something went wrong when I added this the first time, and the text was placed under another topic.

[edit] "his own request"

"Rokossovsky, on his own request..." did NOT WANT to go to Poland. In the "Molotov Remembers: Indside Kremlin Politics" ISBN 1566630274 p.54 it is said " Before appointing Rokossovsky to Poland I [Molotov] went there and told the Poles we would give them one of our experienced generals as minister of defense. And we decided to give them one of the best - Rokossovsky... He wasn't happy about going there, but it was very important for us that he be there..."

He did not volunteer he was ORDERED to be there.

If noone can verify that he volunteered, I suggest we delete the phrase 'his own request' as it is not grounded by any factual comments. In fact, it is quite contrary to that.

[edit] Spelling

You know I've always had trouble with the spelling of this name. The spelling always varies on different websites, so could anyone tell me the correct spelling for the name? Many thanks. WinterSpw 03:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)