Talk:Konkani people

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[edit] Ambiguity in Title

The term Konkani refers to two different identities: 1 The Konkani speaking people 2 The people who live in the Konkan administrative division of Maharashtra. The second identity includes both Konkani and Marathi speaking populace But there is an important difference. Konkanis and Marathis do not constitute a singular ethnic entity

While speaking in Marathi the Konkan region is referred to as Kokan (please note the difference) I suggest that two different pages be created instead of one, to avoid ambiguity

The Konkani people (linguistic)

The Kokani people (geographical)

I would like to see some consent on this sereation before we start rather than have an editing war Deepak D'Souza 05:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Reverted 3 changes done by anonymous user on IP 59.182.93.249 . Request you to refer to the above discussion as to why I have done so --Deepak D'Souza 11:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

No personal attacks please. And what PA did I do ? Anyway, the Konkani people of Maharashtra must be mentioned. 59.182.21.191 12:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Good to know you have finally decided to dicuss the issue.

"Mr. D'Sooza" . Is this what you call good manners? Would you like it if someone made fun of your name?

Please read my comment above. I have clearly mentioned that the Konkani speaking people and the people of the Konkan Vibhag are two distinct entities with a few groups in common. That is why I wish to create two seperate pages. I haven't said that they should not be mentioned. When Maharashtrians call someone as a Konkani(or more precisely Kokani) they reffer to a person living in the Konkan Vibhag regardless of whether he/she is a Konkani speaker or Marathi. When a Konkani speaker reffers to another person as a Konkani (not Kokani) he/she specifically means a Konkani speaker who could be from Mahharashtra, Goa, Karnataka or Kerala. The article as it existed before I made changes did not clearly differentiate between the two.

With this purpose in mind I decided to create another article people of the Konkan region. I was waiting for some dicussion , but no one came forward. And when you came, you started redoing the changes without bothering to explain it.I waited till you made three edits before reverting them. Before that I put messages on your user page three times in order to get your attention . But since it is an IP you would not have known. Anyway now that you have finally come to the table, lets be civil. Please register yourself and sign in so that we can discuss it as per wikipedia policies. Kindly refrain from doing any more edits till we sort out this issue. --Deepak D'Souza 13:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no need for seperate pages on Marathi Kokanis and Konkani Kokanis. The point is, their history is intertwined and although the language may be different, they are very much related. Also the Marathi word "Kokani" is anglicised to "Konkani". Again, there are a few people in Maharashtra's Konkan coast, who speak Konkani. Also many are there in Goa who speak Konkani but are also well-versed in Marathi. I know, you have been fed with anti-Marathi rhetoric by some Konkani zealots, but do not hate Marathi so much, brother. I respect your culture and your language. Maharashtrians are not anti-Konkani. 59.182.2.19 07:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong in saying that "Konkani" is the Anglicized version of "Kokani". That is how Konkani speakers spell it. As I mentioned above , the semantics of both terms are different, and hence it would be best to seperate them. Not all Goans speak Marathi, there are Marathis in Goa and there Konkanis. Some Konkanis are bilingual with Marathi. Bilingual Konkanis do not become Marathis, just as a Marathi who speaks Hindi does not become a Hindi. And again in Karnataka, which has the highest percentage of Konkani speakers, Konkanis are bilingual with Tulu on a daily basis, and even trilingual since they have studied Kannada in school. Lastly, the percentage of Konkani-Marathi bilinguals is very small. I do not have exact figures but I will pessimistically guess at 10-15% .

Your statement that "you have been fed with anti-Marathi rhetoric by some Konkani zealots," is very condescending and goes against the "Assume Good Faith" policy of Wikipedia. What you imply is that as a person I am not mature and rational enough to make my own decisions. I do not hate Marathi, having lived in Mumbai from birth, I have studied Marathi and respect its beauty. But I get fed up by the condescending attitude of a few people who try to demean Konkani by referring to it as a dialect of Marathi. And you seem to display the same attitude when you say that I have been fed with anti-Marathi rhetoric by some Konkani zealots. Let me assure you that I have made my decisions after a lot of reading and research.

I agree that the history of Konkanis and Marathis has intertwined at many points , but that does not mean it is the same. Again going by your logic, I can make an erroneous inference that since Marathis and Kanadigas or Marathis and Gujaratis have had intertwining history they are the same. Most Konkanis live outside Konkan vibhag and have little in common with Marathis. Never have Konkani speaking people regarded their language as a dialect of Marathi , or themselves as Marathis.

I have asked you to refrain from making any edits until this matter is resolved. But you have gone ahead and made changes. It will not be very difficult for me to revert them but I will not do so since I wish to avoid an edit war. I suggest that this matter be put for arbitration. --Deepak D'Souza 09:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sneha Shashikant Shanbhag

Sneha Shashikant Shanbhag has been added as a "Eminent Konkani" twice, once by 18.251.5.127, and again by Diwakarshukla. Apart from the fact that she is studying at Singapore-MIT Alliance I cannot find out anything about her. Before re-adding please make a case as to why you think she is notable per the guideine. AntiVan 00:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Eminent Konkanis

This list is rather amusing, it has may non Konkanis.

Leander Paes is not Konkani, he is a Bengali. Someone must have mistakenly thought that he was a Goan. Dom Moraes, to my knowledge is an Anglo Indian not a Konkani.

There are too many Konkani Muslims in the list, most of whom do not really deserve the title eminent For instance Roghay maybe a Konkani Muslim surname so that does not mean that Mrs Roghay (Ms Roghay who?) desrves to be called "eminent".

The criteria for eminent should be that they are well known outside their community ,not just within the community. If they are not well known among all Konkanis , let alone Indians , why bother?

Lastly , with all due respects to the great Johnny Walker, the Wikipedia article does not mention that he was a Konkani. rather his birthplace is Indore, so why is he in the list?

Deepak D'Souza 05:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

1. Leander Paes is listed at Anglo-Indian sites as such. However, the word Anglo-Indian itself is ambiguous. One can be both Anglo-Indian and Konkani, and so I do not see problems counting him in so long as his family migrated from Konkani areas.

2. I think it better to be inclusive rather than exclusive. It should not matter if some one is born outside Konkani areas so long as one's parentage is Konkani (those who spoke konkani and resided in such areas at some stage. Call them ethnic Konkanis or cultural Konkanis.

3. I was surprised but pleased to see that many prominent folk listed were Konkanis (Antulay, Zakharia,...). I hope their inclusion in the list is legitimate.

Gangolly 14:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)Jagdish Gangolly

Thank you for your comments, Gangolly Here is my feedback.

1. I admit that I was unaware that Leander was born in Goa. But not everyone born in Goa is a Konkani. What I had HEARD was that Leander was a Bengali and that there are Lusitanised Bengali Catholics. I ASSUMED that he was one among them. ANother thing that contributed to my opinion was Mahima Choudhary's interview in a newspaper a couple of years back that he was a Bengali.

with regard to being an Anglo Indian , I doubt it is applicable to Leander. The Indian Govt clearly stats that to be described as an Anglo Indian you have to have an European ancestor in your paternal lineage. Leander's father is not Anglo. His mother may be (going by her family name), so technically Leander is not an Anglo Indian.

Lastly I have seen quite a few of his interviews. He hasnt talked much about his ancestry. Even Goan websites do not list him as Goan. If someone can clarify, I am willing to change my opinion.

For the time being I will place MY opinion about his ancestry in limbo :-). Ditto for Dom Moraes.

2. I agree, a Konkani is a Konkani regardless of where they are born. But here is a small issue: do they regard themselves as Konkanis and love their culture?. I have come across many Konkanis who have forsaken their culture. At one time I was among them too .

It is not uncommon for people who migrate from one region to another to get subsumed into the local culture. Konkani Muslims claim ancestry from Arabs who settled along the coastline. Now they are Konkanis, not Arabs. Indeed Konkani peoples consist of many such clans which adopted Konkani language. Then there are Konkanis who have forgotten their origins and no longer regard themselves as Konanis.

3. Antulay, I am sure. His name is a typical Konkani Muslim surname. Zakaria, I am not sure.

-Deepak D'Souza 06:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Konkani Wikipedia

Dear Konknni friends,

Konkani Wikipedia has been started and been in test stage since August 2006

Kindly contribute towards the Konkani wikipedia. We intend to make it a multiscript

Wikipeida. At least tri-script with Roman ,Devanangiri and Kannada scripts since these are the most popular ones.

We would like to get more articles/templates in place. We also need volunteers to do the thankless and boring job of transliterating it to different scripts .

As of now only two members are making active contributions. The more the merrier. Your contribution is vital to its success.

The url is given below:

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Konkani_Wikipedia

Dev boro dees deum! -Deepak D'Souza 05:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User: 59.182.93.249

Please mind your language! Wikipedia does not approve personal attacks and you could be banned. Second, you have mande changes without discussing it and without providing any reason. Refer to the sub topic "Ambiguity in title" above. Third, please register as a user and go through Wikipedias policies before you start editing again.

--Deepak D'Souza 12:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:209.172.74.45

Please understand that Wikipedia articles, including the External Links column are not a place to advertise. The External links column is meant to link to the relevant external web pages that enhance the knowledge of the article. Your link to http://www.communitywhitepages.net/listings/ does not meet this criterion. Please check the WP:EL guidlines.

The best option for you would be to contact websites dedicated to specific communities and post messages to specific chatgroups.

I will not revert this link for the time being , pending the resolution of another dispute. But someone else may. --Deepak D'Souza 05:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting The Article

Splitting the article serves no purpose as there are many Marathas who speak Konkani and many Gaud Saraswat Brahmins who speak Marathi. Similarly, there are many Konkani Muslims who speak Marathi and many Rajapur Saraswats who speak Konkani. Also, there is no rational basis to say that only the people speaking Konkani are Konkani people, still now people of Maharashtrian Konkan identify themselves as Konkani. These are not seperate ethnicities at all. If you want an article for Konkani speakers then start an article named Konkani-speaking people. I don't know if you have any personal prejudices against Maharashtra-residing Konkanis. Put them aside. Konkancho Wagh 15:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The census department of India puts the figure of bilinguals and trilinguals among Konkanis at 74% and 44% . The majority are bilingual with Kannada and Tulu , not Marathi,so does that mean that the Konkani People should be merged into Tuluva or Kannada people articles. There is already an article about Marathi people. If you want to add anything abut Marathis please do it there, not here. This article follows the same standards as for other lignuistic groups. Eg. Marathi and Marathi people, Bengali and Bengali people. What is the need to add Marathi speaking groups here?

Dont talk about prejudices. You are prejudiced yourself.--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Your remarks doesn't make sense. I have given the reasons and your analogy with Marathi and Bengali doesnt make any sense as there is no other group calling themselves Marathi people or bengali ppl, but for Konkani, there is. So, make sure the people are included. And I am not telling to merge Konkani people into Marathi people. This article is of Konkani people, not Konkani speaking people. Konkancho Wagh 14:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

They may not make any sense to you because you don't want to make sense of it. What do you mean by "my version"? there is no my version or your version in Wikipedia. Please see WP:OWN. If there is no group called "Marathi people" or Bengali people" then why are these articles present on Wikipeida: Marathi people, Bengali people? If you believe that these articles are not valid please go and place a delete tag on these articles.

Read the first paragraph of both articles or for that matter every people article:

The Marathi people or Maharashtrians (Marathi: मराठी माणसं or महाराष्ट्रीय)are an Indo-Aryan ethnic group that inhabit the Maharashtra region and state of western India. Their language Marathi is part of the southern group of Indo-Aryan languages.

The Bengali people are the ethnic community from Bengal (divided between India and Bangladesh) on the Indian subcontinent with a history dating back four millennia. They speak Bengali (বাংলা Bangla), a language of the eastern Indo-Aryan branch of the Indo-European languages.

Once you are satisfied that every language article has a corresponding people article , then please come back and discuss.The Konkani Language article has a corresponding Konkani people article as any other language has.There is no need to create a separate article called "Konkani speaking people". There is no "Marathi speaking people" article or "Bengali speaking people article". This is not the page to put Marathi speaking people just because they are in the Konkan division. If the groups you have mentioned speak Konkani as a primary language or specifically as a Mother tongue they deserve to be here. If they speak Konkani as a second language that does not mean that they belong to this article. Just as much as a Marathi person who speaks English does not become an Englishman and is not considered as belonging to the English people.

If your criteria is that the people who come from the Konkan division belong to the Konkani people article, you are mistaken. The Marathi people article makes no mention of other linguistic groups that reside in Maharashtra such as Konkanis, Hindi speakers in Vidarbha or Dakhani. the The Konkan itself has many diverse ethnic groups such as Marathas, Chitpavans, Samedis, East Indians, Konkani Muslims , Jews, Mahars, Gamits etc.; most of whom dont speak the Konkani Language, nor call themselves as Konkanis.--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 06:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

OK I have checked and Rajapur Saraswat brahmins are a Konkani community. They weren't included here prior to my edits and that is not my fault. I have added a line about them. However the Maratha clan system and Kunbi articles don't mention any Konkani speaking Marathas. Nor could I find anything in a websearch. Can you provide any sources? --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 09:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Surnames

I have removed the surnames from this article and request discretion before putting them back. This article should provide a brief introduction to each community and link the user to corresponding article if it exists. It isn't really necessary to mention surnames here. The presence of surnames tempts visitors to add their own if it isn't present. Hardly a contribution to the improvement of the article. Especially in the case of Lusitanian names which can be found across the world (and number in 100s) as compared to Konkani Hindu names which are local. Maybe you can add them on the individual articles. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 11:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:06, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Konkanis and konkani muslims

The history section starts with the assertion that konkanis are indo aryans who settled in...." etc. If you make that assertion, how do you include konkani muslims who are of arab stock? They are not indo aryans. ( Anyway, what contrues indo aryans?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddwiticus (talk • contribs) 17:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

True that the Konkani Muslims are of Arab extrusion, but they are not 100% Arab, more likely a mixute of Arab and Indian. Limited to my knowledge, the government does not categorise Arabs as a seperate race in India. People of Arab descent are counted into the majority race that belong to the are eg. In North India, they are counted among Aryans, In South they are included among Dravidians. Knanayas believe that they are the descendants of Syrians , but for all practical purposes that are counted as Malayalis. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 12:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I do not think that the government of India classifies people according to their race. There is no such thing as Aryan classification. Malyali classification is linguistic classification not a racial one. Also there is no such thing as Indo aryan race. People that lived in the northern parts of India were called or called themselves Aryans a few thousand years ago. This is again limited to a certain geographic area. These people were followers of vedic religion. The people from neighboring areas that did not follow the vedic religion had different names.From and anthropological perspective you can classify a group as Indo european etc. Ddwiticus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.131.92.51 (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Much of what you say contradicts conventional wisdom. The classification "Indo European" is used for languages, not for people. Yes, Malayali is a linguistgic classification, no doubt. I was just trying to demonstrate an example , not equate Malayali to a race. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 04:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)