Talk:Koine Greek

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Some of the Greek on this page skips out for a character here and there, and I just have boxes, even though my computer auto-selects encoding and has this as Unicode(UTF-8). For example, in the greek for "Alexandrian Dialect", in the following parentheses, the greek word dialect is fine, but the last letter of Peri and the first letter of Alexand... both appear as undefined font "boxes."

That's because it's polytonal Greek (which includes extra characters for breathing marks and acute, grave, and circumflex accents). To see it correctly you'll need to get a font which has these characters, I'd suggest Gentium.
Hope this helps.  –Benjamin 20:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Transliterations

Many of the Transliterations on this page are horrible! Some minor mistakes include the "ha" being transliterated "o", which completely ignores the breathing mark. I wish I had time to read through and correct, but alas I have a Greek test to finish. Please would someone address this problem. --Bkcraft 01:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favour of taking the transliterations out altogether. I don't see any need for them, since you should be able to read Greek if you can understand it! I think the sample texts would be fine with just the Greek text and the English translation.  –Benjamin  (talk)  17:13, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree, they're horrible -- skōr ! Take them out! If the point is just to give the idea of transliteration schemes, wikilink the transliteration page somewheres. --MonkeeSage 07:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The Transliterations have been reviewed by many different people and aim to reflect the phonology changes betwen Ancient and Hellenistic Greek. I get the impression that none of the editors who complain about transliteration have realised that the article is about "Hellenistic" and not "Ancient" Greek. Your confusion is the very answer to your own question, i.e. why does transliteration exist: To reflect the phonetic transition from Ancient to Hellenistic Greek. Thus it will enlighten confused editors or students of Attic, who were never aware of such transition in the first place. Miskin 14:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the section "Evolution from Ancient Greek" might enlighten the masses. It's best to make observations on an article only after it's been fully read. Miskin 14:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but you changed <υι> to /ui/, it should be /u/, so οι υιοί would be /u uu/ or IPA /y yy/. Sounds strange, indeed, maybe some of our linguistic wizards has an idea how this could have sounded. Should we use ü instead of u for the /y/ sound? Andreas 15:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I just didn't see a reason to ignore iota. None of the phonetic rules implies so. If you disagree you can always change it back and take responsibility for it. Miskin 15:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, there must be a misunderstanding. The article says: The diphthongs αι, ει, οι, and υι became single vowels, and The diphthongs 'οι' and 'υι' acquired the pronunciation of the modern French 'U' ([y] in IPA). Andreas 15:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I missed the formation of that diphthong in the text, I'm correcting it. Miskin 15:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Just my 2c (having been invited to join by Andreas):

  • The present text seems a bit ambiguous whether the transcriptions are supposed to be present-day Greek ("as used by the Greek Orthodox Church" as it says somewhere), or an historically intermediate stage somewhere in antiquity.
  • We might want to consider if a (broad) IPA transcription might not be more appropriate (thinking especially of the rather awkward <gh> transcription for gamma)
  • The transcription at present uses <gh> (i.e. [γ]) for gamma, but <d> for delta and <b> for beta. Now, I think there probably was such an intermediate stage, as gamma shifted to fricative earlier than the rest, but I'm not sure for how long that would be representative.
  • Ypsilon should definitely be transcribed not as <u> but <y>. That fronting happened early.
  • A word like ὑιοί would have been [y.'y] if the sound change was regular through all environments, but I guess it might have been anything between [y'jy] [iˈy] and [i'jy] too. (Don't forget it ultimately changed to [ji]). My guess is there would have been a linking glide.
  • As for the use of <y>, <ü> and <j>, I'd stick with the IPA convention (<y> for the front rounded vowel, <j> for the glide.)

Lukas (T.|@) 16:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't have anything specific on Koine Greek, but it's already using an English transliteration of Greek which I found useful. Anyway you can change 'u' to 'y' if you want, I was just explaining my reasons for not having done so. 'ou' should probably also be changed. Miskin 17:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The current idiosyncratic transliterations are confusing. I agree with Lukas that a broad IPA trascription would be more appropriate. --Macrakis 16:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The prayer and its reference on the 'Greek Orthodox Church' were imported from a different article without having its pronunciation changed into Hellenistic. I agree that Beta and Delta should be also changed to v/bh, dh. I used 'u' in the place of ypsilon because Andriotis compares it to the French 'u'. Hence there's no reason to create futher confusion by using 'y'. Miskin 16:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Hm, but surely <u> would imply [u] to most readers, wouldn't it? I'd see that as more confusing than the use of the perfectly standard IPA <y>. Lukas (T.|@) 16:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
This Hellenistic transliteration is not my POV, I tried to base it on the Perseus project. I think it also uses 'u' instead of 'y'. Miskin 16:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh sure, this is not a POV dispute. :-) Just a matter of what's more practical. I didn't know the Perseus project had anything on historical phonological transcriptions, could you point me to some? Of course, I'm quite aware that English-language sources sometimes use <u> for ypsilon, but for this specific purpose of indicating the phonological development it seems suboptimal to me. (BTW, my proposal would obviously also imply changing <ou> to <u> for Greek omicron-upsilon.) Lukas (T.|@) 16:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't have anything specific on Koine Greek, but it's already using an English transliteration of Greek which I found useful. Anyway you can change 'u' to 'y' if you want, I was just explaining my reasons for not having done so. 'Ou' could also be changed. I followed that practice according to Perseus' trans. of Attic, and the general trans/tion of Modern Greek 'ou', but if you don't think it's precise, I can see where you're coming from. Miskin 17:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Example

One possible way of doing it:

1 Καὶ ἐγένετο μετὰ τὸ πατάξαι Ἀλέξανδρον τὸν Φιλίππου Μακεδόνα, ὃς ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ γῆς Χεττιιμ, καὶ ἐπάταξεν τὸν Δαρεῖον βασιλέα Περσῶν καὶ Μήδων καὶ ἐβασίλευσεν ἀντ᾽ αὐτοῦ, πρότερον ἐπὶ τὴν Ἑλλάδα.

[ke ejéneto metá to patákse aléksandron ton philípu makeðóna, os eksílthen ek jis khetiím, ke epátaksen ton ðaríon βasiléa persón ke míðon ke eβasíleɸsen ant aɸtú, próteron epí tin eláða.]

En. And so it happened, after Alexander (son) of Philip the Macedonian, he came out of the land of Cethim, and smote Darius ruler of Persians and Medes, and reigned in his stead as the ruler of Greece.

2 καὶ συνεστήσατο πολέμους πολλοὺς καὶ ἐκράτησεν ὀχυρωμάτων καὶ ἔσφαξεν βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς·

ke synestísato polémus polús ke ekrátisen okhyromáton ke esphaksen βasilís tis jis Lukas (T.|@) 17:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

shouldn't it be eβasílefsen? And when did /fs/ -> /ps/ occur? Andreas 17:04, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
You may be right about [fs] there. I have no idea about [ps] though. Shall we consult Mr Caragounis ;-) ? Well, G. Horrocks would be the place to consult for the fine-tuning, again. Perhaps I can do that some time. Lukas (T.|@) 17:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

For this word, probably never. It should be 'fs'. Miskin 17:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

If you mean that [fs] never changed to [ps] in εβασίλευσε, well yes of course it did, in popular speech, that's why we spell it βασίλεψε today. The fact that Modern Greek invented a new spelling for the modified form doesn't change the fact that this was a regular sound change. And it's quite likely that it would have occurred much earlier in speech than it was reflected in the writing. The present-day [fs] for εβασίλευσε is evidently an artificial, learned spelling pronunciation. Lukas (T.|@) 17:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I've provisionally changed [β] to [ɸ] in the potentially devoiced <αυ, ευ> cases. That would be the expected intermediate stage between [w], [β] and [f]. Need to check the chronology though. As I said, I can consult Horrocks in a few days. Note to later readers: Andreas' comments above were addressed to my earlier version with [β]. Lukas (T.|@) 11:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transliterations are not transcriptions!

People...transliteration is not phonetic transcription. Transliteration is taking the glyphs from one writing system and representing them with equivalent glyphs in another. That simple. And the transliterations on the page right now do not reflect any recognized transliteration scheme that I'm aware of. Ther use of 'i' for eta is similar to the original ISO/R 843:1968, but even that is lacking the macron that the ISO standard uses to differentiate eta from iota. And the 1997 revision of the standard uses 'e' instead of 'i'. Further, no transliteration scheme represents the Greek diacritics in the transliteration, with the sole exception of the rough breathing, which is represented as 'h'. It should be like this:

1 Καὶ ἐγένετο μετὰ τὸ πατάξαι Ἀλέξανδρον τὸν Φιλίππου Μακεδόνα, ὃς ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ γῆς Χεττιιμ, καὶ ἐπάταξεν τὸν Δαρεῖον βασιλέα Περσῶν καὶ Μήδων καὶ ἐβασίλευσεν ἀντ᾽ αὐτοῦ, πρότερον ἐπὶ τὴν Ἑλλάδα.
(Kai egeneto meta to pataxai Alexandron ton Philippou Makedona, hos exēlthen ek gēs Chettiim, kai epataxen ton Dareion Basilea Persōn kai Mēdōn kai ebasileusen ant autou, proteron epi tēn Hellada.)

If you're not going to follow a recognized transliteration scheme, then you need to either remove the "transliterations" or else label them accurately as an attempt to phonetically transcribe the Greek not transliterate it. --MonkeeSage 22:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, sure, I didn't even notice that inaccuracy. It should say "transcription", of course, that's evidently what was intended from the start. Thanks for pointing this out. Lukas (T.|@) 22:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I thought people were really confusing transliteration with transcription! I feel like an old Scrooge now for making such a big fuss when it was just an semantic mistake. Sorry about that! --MonkeeSage 23:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
No offense taken. I'll change it now; I suppose everybody agrees. Lukas (T.|@) 09:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wording regarding "dating"

Re. Miskin's latest changes of my wording "datable roughly to the turn of the millennium": I suppose the formuation was a bit unclear; what I meant to say was not that any one of the changes in question are dated to that time, but that the stage of the language represented by the transcriptions was intended to be that time. Miskin's current wording "intermediate stage during the evolution of Greek phonology from Ancient to Hellenistic" would point to a stage of the language somewhere perhaps in the 3rd cent. BC, but that doesn't fit the phonology currently shown (e.g. the media wouldn't have been fricativized yet at that time, IIRC, and vowel length wouldn't have been lost yet). Also, it would be anachronistic with respect to the text shown, which was written later. - But don't worry about this for now, wait till we check an authoritative source and find a good, representative, datable model for a transcription, and then we'll see. Lukas (T.|@) 15:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note about Evolution

Firstly, let me just say that I have never studied Ancient Greek, so I'm coming from the point of view of a Koine student only.

In the evolution section, would it be helpful to include information about dropped letters? For example, the diagamma no longer appears in Koine Greek, however its presence is very much still felt in the grammar. For example βασιλευς has 'irregular' endings because of the 'presence' of the diagamma in the root. Icecradle 15:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I guess the digamma loss happened really a bit too early to be treated under Koine. It should be somewhere under Ancient Greek or related articles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
That is correct. Miskin 17:00, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Highly disputed POV

In the first paragraph appears the phrase: "Koine also was the original language of the New Testament of the Christian Bible." There is very strong evidence that supports the scholarly opinion that both the "Gospel according to Matthew" and the "Epistle to the Hebrews" were originally written in a Semitic language. This was recognized by the early Church Fathers and is backed up by linguistic criticism of the texts as well as by the fact that a Semitic copy of Matthew was discovered in India which dates back to 50 CE. The phraseology used in this article gives the impression that it is 100% certain that the Church Fathers lied about the original languages of Matthew and Hebrews. Author: Is that what you are trying to communicate? Adjusting the wording is strongly recommended in order to make it NPOV. Thanks. --SHLAMA 06:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't have expert knowledge on the issue, but according to the relevant articles (Gospel of Matthew) the original Greek hypothesis seems to be the modern mainstream in scholarship. Given that the issue is really only of tangential importance for this article here, I don't think importing here whatever dispute there may be there is really unnecessary. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I did my doctoral work in Matthew, specifically in the field of linguistic criticism. The Peshitta version (Aramaic) is most likely the original form. It is the form that Bartholomew and Thomas carried with them to India in 50 CE, since that was, at the time, the lingua franca of that part of the world. Matthew himself was an Aramaic-speaker, and there are several passages that remain in Aramaic (transliterated) even in the Greek translations of Matthew's Gospel. I direct you to the writings of Dr. Matthew Black, Dr. George Lamsa, Dr. Alexander Victor, and Dr. Andrew Gabriel Roth, Dr. Paul Younan, Raphael Lataster, et al for further discussion on this; as well as the Church Fathers who attest to the Semitic primacy of Matthew and Hebrews. A simple qualifier would neutralize the article in this regard. Even Greek primacists will readily admit that the passage that reads in the Greek text "Eli Eli lmana shavakthani" is not Greek, but rather Aramaic.--SHLAMA 07:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
"Semitic copy" dating from "50 CE", "discovered" in India? Hey, can I see the manuscript? What material, how was it preserved? How come nobody knows of this "copy"? The Peshitta of course isn't an individual manuscript, it's a textual tradition. I don't want to question your scholarly qualifications here, but an argument that mixes an unreferenced mysterious 1st-century manuscript with the legendary account of the travels of St Thomas to India, and quotes ancient church fathers as if they were modern linguists, sets certain alarm-bells ringing with me. I'd suggest to keep this debate at Aramaic primacy, George Lamsa etc., apparently the niche where it belongs. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The manuscript from India was found by Pantaenus in 150 CE and taken back to Alexandria at that time. It's existence is recognized by Dallas Theological Seminary, one of the leading schools in the world for Biblical study. If you are really this adamant in your protest against the simple addition of the word "possibly" to make the article accurate, no amount of evidence will disuade you. But, how do you explain non-Greek phrases such as "Eli, eli, lmana shabakthani," "Talita, kumi," and "raka"? It's not all in Greek, and every scholar in the world will tell you that. --SHLAMA 08:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, it's just those alarm-bells ringing on and on in the background, I'm afraid. You know, a manuscript mentioned only once in an ancient author centuries after the alleged fact, but presented here as an undisputable fact at first... whose existence hinges on some "Theological Seminary" "recognizing" it... Since when is it the business of a "Seminary" to decide on what gets recognized and what doesn't? -- Well, I'm not convinced that this is serious. If you've done scholarly work on this, I'll be happy to read it if you send me a copy (privacy guaranteed). Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. Whither do I send it? --SHLAMA 08:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Go to my user page and click the "E-mail this user" link on the left margin, somewhere under the search box. Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of loss of vowel lenght distinction and migration to stress accent

The article states that the transition to isochronous vowels and stress accent happened by the 2nd century BC. In Vox Graeca, W. Sidney Allen states that, while some Egyptian papyri suggests the transition happened in Egyptian Greek as early as the 2nd century BC, there is no unambiguous indication that the transition occured in mainstream greek before the end of the 2nd century AD. While I am aware that the current edition of Vox Graeca is 20 years old and may have be superseded by newer works, I would be curious to know which sources back the date of the 2nd century BC. Just my .02$, but I would expect that non-native speakers of Greek whose native language did not feature vowel quantity and pitch accentuation may have started the transition to isochronous vowels and stress accents quite early, when Greek became the Lingua Franca in the mediterranean east, but that native speakers of Greek may have followed much later. Can anyone clarify? Rnabet 16:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense. Thanks for looking this up. Would you like to update the article on the basis of Allen, for the time being? I don't think the current text was sourced from anything more reliable than that. As I said earlier, I'd like to check against Horrocks (and possibly against that guy called Teodorsson, quoted in Ancient Greek phonology, and a few other sources mentioned in that article), but I probably won't find the time during the next few weeks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, I have eventually found the time to update the article, and I am in the process of doing so. The task is much larger than I previously thought, not because there are many errors in the text (the only thing that was *really* erroneous was a statement that implied that ancient writers subscripted their iota), but because it generally presents only one hypothesis in matters where there is little consensus. Rnabet 20:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Long diphthongs

"Finally, long υ diphtongs (ᾱυ, ηυ and ωυ) became monophtongal by the 1st century BC, as they were written as α, η and ω". However, modern Greek still has "ηύρα" - I found, where the υ is preserved as [v], and not *ήρα. Also, woe would need sources for this.   Andreas   (T) 19:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, would be interesting to see an example. I understand Rnabet was working from Allen, so there's probably something to it. The modern [iv] pronounciation in that word might of course well be a later letter-by-letter reading pronunciation re-introduced by analogy, since it's purely a learned form. It would be interesting to see what happened to any words that had these sounds but were handed down through the spoken demotic. - Anyway, many thanks to Rnabet for reworking the section, good job! Actually, it's now grown so much it starts competing with Ancient Greek phonology - we might start considering how to re-balance the division of labour between these two articles. I wouldn't be averse to reducing the phonology article to a synchronic sketch of Classical Attic, and treat the whole diachronic post-classical development here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Andreas, thanks for pointing the issue out, I had indeed missed a fact in Allen (such things will happen when authors write important remarks in tiny-print footnotes). I have expanded the section with additional data on the evolution of ηυ, so read the section again. To elaborate on your point, ηύρα is indeed irregular, as according to the revised section we would expect a form *εύρα; Allen thinks that ηύρα must be a classicizing formation (the more popular formation being βρήκα, from ancient Greek perfect εὕρηκα).
Future Perfect at Sunrise, I am quite open to suggestions about article reorganization. I haven't given this much thought yet, as I was just concerned on correcting inaccuracies in an existing article. I guess it could make sense to move Koine Greek phonology out of Ancient Greek phonology, because Koine Greek is phonologically a transition period: at the start of the period, the language is virtually identical to Classical Ancient Greek, whereas in the end the language has phonologically a lot more in common with Modern Greek than Ancient Greek.
As for sources, I have already written down my source in the References section – Allen's Vox Graeca. I am considering adding further reference as foot notes in the article's text, with page number in Vox Graeca. Do you think it would be a good idea? Rnabet 21:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that ALL modern greek words containing ηυ are classicizing formations. This diphthong was already quite rare in Ancient Greek, only used as the augmented form of ευ (for past tense formation or simply metri gratia). It is even rarer in the living language. But with length distinctions lost, ηυ ceased to be productive in the language to become a fossilized orthographical form. I would point out that demotic εφεύρε pronounced [efevre] survives alongside classicising εφηύρε pronounced [efivre], both meaning "he invented". My explanation is that the first form reflects the natural evolution of the language while the second is a classicising reintroduction whose pronounciation, though logical because it reflects the modern pronounciation of bare η is nevertheless artificial.Yannos 00:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How is "koine" pronounced in English anyway?

I've informally studied linguistics (from books) and taken courses in Modern Greek. As such, I've never actually heard the word "Koine" pronounced in English. I am tempted to pronounce it like the word "coin". I'm also tempted to pronounce it as if it with the modern Greek pronunciation -- /kiní/. But I am sure both of those are wrong. Maybe someone who knows could add a small note to the beginning of this article to say how the word is actually pronounced in English. Daniel

FWIW, the free Merriam-Webster online suggests [koɪ'neɪ], ['koɪneɪ] and [ke'ne], so it seems the English pronounciation is not well-standardized. I wish I could double check in Oxford; maybe someone can. OTOH, you could use the original Greek pronounciation, but since koine phonology is so variable, it could be any of [koine:˩˥], [ky:ne:˩˥], [ky'ne], [ky'ni], etc. Rnabet 07:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I also am an amatuer linguist and I tend to say koy-NEY.Cameron Nedland 14:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
In Greece we prounounce Koine like this : Ki(like kick) + Ni(like nick)(stress on Ni)

In my University courses it was always pronounced like the english words "key knee." I believe that this is an accurate reflection of both the modern and the Koine pronunciations of the word, as there was a convergence of vowels on /i/ in Hellenistic Greek (which has remained to this day). Helikophis (talk) 14:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Make a separate article Koine Greek phonology

I would suggest to make a separate article on Koine Greek phonology, because this section is already quite long.   Andreas   (T) 14:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

This might be a good idea. I will wait for a few days to see if anyone makes further comments, and if there is consensus, I will probably move this section to a new article. Rnabet 07:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
It is probably a good idea to have a separate article on phonological developments in Koine since there is so much to say. This would leave some space for the current article to contain some more information about morphological and syntactic differences between Attic and Koine. Many such differences were probably driven by underlying phonological events. Yannos 00:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
If someone creates that article, they might want to merge some of the overlong Ancient Greek phonology into it. I once suggested to make a biggish restructuring of the whole lot of the Greek-language articles, but I somehow never got around doing it. You might want to check Talk:Greek language. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I just moved the whole section to a separate Koine Greek phonology article. Now, I probably need to expand the new article, as a simple chronological phonetic rundown is not enough. This phonetic rundown needs some rewriting anyway, as it is too biased towards Attic, anyway. Rnabet 19:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
To follow up, I have expanded the Koine Greek Phonology article with sample phonological systems and tried to remove the bias of the phonetic rundown towards learned and Attic Greek. Now, I need to find a copy of Horrocks; too bad it is out of print. (Grignac, Threatte and Theodorsson might be interesting as well.) Rnabet 20:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Assumptions behind transcriptions

I would like to know what assumptions are being made in the various sample text transcriptions.

I am asking because, even though they mostly seem to correspond to "late" koine (i.e. the pronounciation that was generalized in the late Roman period/early middle ages and from which modern greek pronounciation is derived), they feature pitch accent which is thought to have progressively disappeared starting from the 2nd century BC.

IMOH, pitch accent notwithstanding, the transcription looks mostly correct for the Nicene Creed, a 4th century text. Assuming Maccabees 1 has been translated in Egypt, like the rest of the Septuagint, and the transcription is trying to represent Egyptian Greek, the First Book of the Maccabees seems mostly correct to me, pitch accent notwithstanding. (Though I am not sure that η really had a value of i in Egyptian Greek; any reference on the topic would be appreciated.) OTOH, I am not sure what assumptions should be made in a transcription of Mattew, since almost nothing is known on the background of its author; maybe putting both a conservative and a modernist transcription alongside would make sense.

Since Koine Greek phonology is so variable, any transcription is bound to make some assumptions. My point is that these assumptions made should be written down in the article. (A phrase like "The phonetic transcriptions aim to represent an intermediate stage during the evolution of Greek phonology from Ancient to Hellenistic" is not enough; it actually seems more confusing than clarifying to me.)

Anyway, I had rather there would be some kind of a consensus before editing the transcriptions.

Rnabet 08:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The transcriptions offered contradict the phonology section of the article

To take only two obvious examples:

  • the section on the loss of aspiration claims "that this transition must not have occurred before the 2nd century AD, but transcriptions into Gothic show that it was at least well under way in the 4th century AD." Yet, initial aspiration has been entirely done away with in texts that date before this range (Matthew, Maccabees).
  • the section on the diphthong au states, "Jewish catacombs inscriptions still show a diphthongal value in the 2nd–3rd century AD." And yet it's transcribed aβ.

I agree with Rnabet that the "intermediate stage...from Ancient to Hellenistic" is confusing. I'll go further, and say that it's meaningless. No one would locate these texts (or any other) as "between Ancient and Hellenistic." This looks like a desperate pis-aller adopted in place of an earlier unsatisfactory characterization (which I infer from this talk page may have been "as heard in the Orthodox Church today"—which is probably a more accurate way to describe what follows!).

Conclusion: These transcriptions are not at all reliable for what they claim to be. They are in significant respects closer to Modern Greek than to reconstructed Koine Greek pronunciations. They vitiate the value of this article and should be scrapped—reintroduced only if someone is willing to enforce some consistency with the (presumably better-informed) information under "Phonology." Wareh 23:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll check this against some sources tonight. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intelligible to modern Greek speakers

Although there are quite a lot of Greek speaking editor around here, this assertion has nevertheless to be substiantiated by accessible source according ot WP policy. Another question is whether "[...] most of the changes between Modern and Ancient Greek were introduced with Koine". Certainly the morphology is very similar to Attic, and the liberal use of the infinitive ane participles is something unknown to Modern Greek. In fact, the current form of Modern Greek is influenced quit a bit by Attic/Koine because of Katharevousa and the Orthodox Church. The fact that the liturgy and prayers are usually read in Ancient Greek gives the average Greek a familiarity with Koine unreated to the everyday language.   Andreas   (T) 19:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, but many Greeks feel strongly about this. See discussion on Talk:Greek language (July 2005). The compromise wording in Greek language is:
It has been claimed that an "educated" speaker of the modern language can understand an ancient text, but this is surely as much a function of education as of the similarity of the languages. Still, Koinē, the version of Greek used to write the New Testament and the Septuagint, is relatively easy to understand for modern speakers.
I think this overstates the ease of understanding Koine. --Macrakis 21:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I remember well that someone had provided a source for the understanding claim. It's now lost in the edit summaries. Miskin 21:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore some Attic texts of the Hellenistic era quite easy to understand without prior study of ancient Greek (Strabo comes into mind). Koine Greek is much more "modernised" than the Atticist language. Miskin 21:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The fact that most changes between modern and ancient Greek occurred in Koine is attested in every book I've read. In the story of pu it is stated that early Koine was very close to Attic and late Koine was very close to modern Greek. This has nothing to do with the influences from Katharevousa nor the Greek liturgy, such a claim is pure OR. It has to do with the changes in syntax, phonology, grammar and vocabulary, that first appeared in Koine and were later standardised in Byzantine Greek. Miskin 21:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uvular /r/?

Re. Haldrik's edit ([1]): Is there a source for the uvular quality of /r/ in Biblical Koiné? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the website that discussed the phoneme is no longer active. I'll see if I can locate another source. --Haldrik 11:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

In the absence of any source, I'm reverting the IPA back to the alveolar flap. FilipeS 11:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New sample transcriptions

As a replacement of the transcribed samples that were criticised above, I've checked Horrock's Greek: a history... again and have chosen two of the transcribed sections he offers. I chose two that are representative of two extremes, one rather conservative and one rather progressive. Of course, it should be clear that all these proposals are tentative, but Horrocks makes some effort at justifying which transcription model he uses for which case. I haven't compared every detail with what is said in the preceding sections (based on Allen); there's a chance that Horrock's proposals are, on the whole, slightly more "advanced" than Allen's. He bases his reconstructions on work by Teodorsson, Gignac and others. Here goes:

The following excerpt, from a decree of the Roman Senate to the town of Thisbae in Boeotia in 170 BC, is rendered in a reconstructed pronunciation representing a hypothetical conservative variety of mainland Greek Koiné.[1] It shows partial, but not yet completed raising of η and ει to /i/, retention of pitch accent, fricativization of γ to /j/ but no fricativisation of the other stops as yet, and retention of word-initial /h/.

  • περὶ ὧν Θισ[β]εῖς λόγους ποιήσαντο· περὶ τῶν καθ᾿αὑ[τ]οὺς πραγμάτων, οίτινες ἐν τῆι φιλίαι τῆι ἡμετέραι ἐνέμειναν, ὅπως αὐτοῖς δοθῶσιν [ο]ἷς τὰ καθ᾿ αὑτοὺς πράγματα ἐξηγήσωνται, περὶ τούτου τοῦ πράγματος οὕτως ἔδοξεν · ὅπως Κόιντος Μαίνιος στρατηγὸς τῶν ἐκ τῆς συνκλήτου [π]έντε ἀποτάξηι, οἳ ἂν αὐτῶι ἐκ τῶν δημοσίων πρα[γμ]άτων καὶ τῆς ἰδίας πίστεων φαίνωνται.
perì hôːn tʰizbîːs lóɡuːs epojéːsanto, perì tôːn katʰ hautùːs praɡmátoːn, hoítines en tîː pʰilíaːi tîː heːmetéraːi enémiːnan, hópoːs autoîs dotʰôːsin hoîs tà katʰ hautùːs práɡmata ekseːɡéːsoːntai, perì túːtuː tûː práɡmatos húːtoːs édoksen, hópoːs ˈkʷintos ˈmainios strateːɡòs tôːn ek têːs syŋkléːtuː pénte apotáksiː, hoì àn autôːi ek tôːn deːmosíoːn praɡmátoːn kaì têːs idíaːs písteoːs pʰaínoːntai.
"Concerning those matters matters about which the citizens of Thisbae made representations. Concerning their own affairs: the following decision was taken concerning the proposal that those who remained true to our friendship should be given the facilities to conduct their own affairs; that our governor Quintus Maenius should delegate five members of the senate who seemed to him suitable in the light of their public actions and individual good faith."

The following excerpt, the beginning of the Gospel of St John, is rendered in a reconstructed pronunciation representing a progressive popular variety of Koiné in the early Christian era, with vowels approaching those of Modern Greek.[2]

  • ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν. πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς ὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν. ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, καὶ ἡ σωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων̣ · καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει, καὶ ῆ σκοτία υὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν.
en arˈkʰi in o ˈloɣos, ke o ˈloɣos im bros to(n) tʰeˈo(n), ke tʰeˈos in o ˈloɣos. ˈutos in en arˈkʰi pros to(n) tʰeˈo(n). ˈpanda di aɸˈtu eˈjeneto, ke kʰoˈris aɸˈtu eˈjeneto ude ˈen o ˈjeɣonen. en aɸˈto zoˈi in, ke i zoˈi in to pʰos ton anˈtʰropon, ke to pʰos en di skoˈtia ˈpʰeni, ke i skoˈti(a) a(ɸ)ˈto u kaˈtelaβen.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
Wow, thanks for the speedy good work on this. I would be glad to see you replace the present transcriptions (which as far as I can tell have no authority and represent no one's views on the pronunciation of these texts at the time of their composition) with these. I think Horrocks' name should be mentioned in the article body (not just the footnote), so that it's clear to the reader that this is what one scholar thinks koine Greek sounded like at two specific times & places (though obvious to most, the date of John in the 1st c. AD should be mentioned too, I think). And by all means let's replace that meaningless "between Ancient and Hellenistic" with a correct statement (i.e. simply that Horrocks considers both of these texts to be specimens of koine, and that his transcriptions are an attempted reconstruction). Wareh 00:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Of course it would be nice if you can include as specific a statement as Horrocks makes indicating exactly what he thinks he's reconstructing. That is, I've assumed above that he is making his best stab at "two specific times and places." Is that what he seems to be doing? (It should be made clear if Horrocks makes some dodge in the vein of our current "Here's a text by an easterner as pronounced by a non-easterner.") This is a long-winded way of saying, if we're following Horrocks, we should include, at least in a note, a one-sentence version, for each text, of his "justifying which transcription model he uses for which case." Wareh 00:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The term Koine

I am no expert on ancient, medieval or modern Greek (although I know some of it), but if I remember well, in a syllabus I once had to read for a course it was implied that the term Koine derived from hè koinè diálektos. Any thoughts on this? Iblardi 18:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Well Greier, I think it's obvious from Koine Greek#The term Koine that it was a "common" something; ἡ κοινὴ διάλεκτος ("the common dialect") could easily be that. Shame I have no sources on that either :) --Domitius 19:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
And we have a winner [2].--Domitius 19:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Really, you should stop calling me names. This was a serious comment. Iblardi 19:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess it's OK to edit then, on the authority of the Britannica... Iblardi 13:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh yes, sure, thanks for the addition. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] upsilon-iota

The diphthong 'υι' became pronounced [yj], and subsequently became treated as two consecutive vowels (as if 'υϊ').

Please give a source. The only important words with 'υι' are υἱός and μυῖα. Υἱός becomes */yjos/ > */ijos/ > /jos/. A google search swhos many instances of 'τον υγιό' in popular poetry. Μυῖα would become */myja/ > */mija/, but the modern word is /miγa/, so it is more probable /myia/ > */mya/ > /myγa/ (hiatus resoved with /γ/) > /miγa/, see Ανδριώτη, Ετυμολογικά λεξικό της Κοινής Νεοελληνικης, Θεσσαλονίκη 1967, p. 223).  Andreas  (T) 16:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference to "History of the Greek language"

The text contains references to: Andriotis, Nikolaos P. History of the Greek language. When and when was this book published? The reference is incomplete.

155.198.213.89 15:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patristic Greek

Is patristic Greek the same as koine Greek? I'm not trying to make a point, I just don't know (and feel that an encyclopedia aought to tell me).Maproom (talk) 13:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"Patristic" in the sense of "the Greek used by the Church Fathers" in late antiquity, right? Yes, they used Koiné - in fact, a continuum of various shades of it. There's a good chapter on it in Horrock's Greek: A history of the language and its speakers, pointing out that the earliest theologians, at the time when Christianity was a minority religion, used a fairly simple register close to the spoken language of the time (as the New Testament itself did), but that more elaborate learned registers became more prominent from the 4th century onwards when it became the official state religion.
I've redirected Patristic Greek here and have given it a quick stab in the article based on this reference. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)