Talk:Kobe Bryant

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 Kobe Bryant was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: May 27, 2008

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Kobe Bryant article.
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[edit] Incorrect statement concerning Kobe Bryants trial

Under the 04-05 season, it incorrectly states that Kobe Bryant was convicted guilty of rape. Loyolacub68 (talk) 21:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect statement concerning his 05-06 scoring average.

The article states the following:

Bryant won the league's scoring title for the first time, posting a very high scoring average (49.7), second only to Michael Jordan's 37.1 average in 1986-87. He is one of the top 5 players in the NBA. Kobe Bryant attended Maasai Institute High School, Kobe was coached under Mr. Fulkner (James Fulkner), Mr. Pointer (Jose Pointer), Mr.Whyte (David Whyte)

This is incorrect.

Here is the top 10 of all-time scorers, as referenced by NBA.COM during the 05-06 scoring race. Clearly notable, Kobe's average is 8th of all time, individually, fourth all time behind Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan and Rick Barry.

http://www.nba.com/features/scoring_race_0506.html

It might also be worth mentioning that in 1961-62, Elgin Baylor managed to average 38.3 Points Per Game, but only played 48 games. The requirement to win the scorers title for a season is a minimum of 70 games played. He played a total of 102 high- school games at Maasia Intitute High School. 93-96, Kobe Bryant and Mr. Kalabula was teammates, but know Kobe Bryant plays for the Los Angeles Lakers but is thinking about returning back to Maasai Institute High School.

58.166.242.15 07:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)Ryan

[edit] Citation Needed

Does anyone have a reference for Kobe's trade demand from the Hornets in 1996? I thought Jerry West simply traded for him. I don't think Kobe demanded the trade. C5mjohn (talk) 03:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there any proof confirming that his middle name is in fact "Bean?" To the best of my knowledge, Kobe doesn't have a middle name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.242.155 (talk) 19:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC) bryant is as of right now the best player in the nba —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.89.171.175 (talk) 06:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC) Kobe Bryant does infact have a middle name and it is Bean. He was given this because his father's nickname is "Jellybean". In the Sexual Assult case against Bryant his name was stated as Kobe Bean Bryant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.75.97.150 (talk) 21:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Old Kobe Bryant Wiki article (before it was recently changed to not include Kobe demanding to be traded to the Lakers upon being drafted by the Charlotte Hornets.

http://www.bballone.com/kobeb/kobebryantbio.html

1996 NBA Draft ---------

Before he was chosen as the 13th overall draft pick by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996, the 17-year-old Bryant had made a lasting impression on then-Lakers general manager Jerry West, who immediately foresaw potential in Bryant's basketball ability during pre-draft workouts. He went on to state that Bryant's workouts were some of the best he had seen. Immediately after the draft, Bryant expressed that he did not wish to play for the Hornets and wanted to play for the Lakers instead. Fifteen days later, West traded his starting center, Vlade Divac to the Hornets for the young Kobe Bryant.


Just to add some more credible references on Kobe demanding to be a Laker (NY Times and Sports Illustrated):

http://select.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html&OQ=_rQ3D2Q26refQ3DsportsQ26orefQ3Dslogin&OP=56e94df7Q2FQ5CodEQ5Cj4Q3A11jQ5CiGG!Q5CGvQ5CipQ5C471Q3Aj4Q5CipQ3A1EdQ3Aj46Q51jQ7Ck

Bryant foreshadowed his gall. In 1996, Bryant, a teenager exiting high school for the N.B.A., was not the first pick, but he exuded self-importance when he refused to play anywhere but Hollywood. With the 13th selection, with a deal to trade Bryant to Los Angeles in pocket, Charlotte chose him. But there was a point where it looked as if the Lakers’ Vlade Divac would retire rather than take part in a trade that would send him to Charlotte for Bryant. Couldn’t Bryant be a Hornet? Could he grow to love Southern sweet tea? “That is an impossibility,” Bryant’s agent, Arn Tellem, said at the time. “There are no ifs. It would not happen. He is going to be a Laker, and that’s the only team he’s playing for.”

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/2001/05/26/sayitaintso_lakers/

We know there are some 5-year-olds who will think we're crazy for saying this, but wasn't it a bummer the day the Lakers traded good old Vlade? Of course, history will remember it differently. But at the time, it stank of a high school kid declaring his dream to play in the NBA ... but only for the Lakers. Bryant basically strong-armed his way out of Charlotte instead of thanking the Hornets for spending a 13th overall pick on a teenager. He seemed to be giving off a vibe that only a city like L.A. was big enough to hold him. Who knew he'd be right?

[edit] 20,000 Pts Inaccuracy

In the current Kobe Bryant article, the 1st paragraph ends with the following statement:

"In January 2006, Kobe Bryant scored an all-time high of 81 points against the Toronto Raptors, The second highest number of points ever scored in an NBA game. Bryant, also remains one of the youngest players in NBA history to reach 20,000 Career points."

The 1st thing i would like to comment about is the capital letter "T" in the "The second highest..." sentence. That "t" should be a small one, as in "the second highest..."

More importantly is that the next sentence in that paragraph is inaccurate. It states that "Bryant, also remains one of the youngest players in NBA history to reach 20,000 Career points.", which is not true.

I recommend it to be changed to:

"On Sunday, December 23, 2007, Kobe Bryant became the youngest player in NBA history to reach 20,000 career points."

Reference: http://myespn.go.com/s/conversations/show/story/3167021


--Hawiveli (talk) 23:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That was something that some fan altered, minor case of vandalism really. Don't worry, the original content of the article has been restored.A fine point (talk) 03:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2007-08 season

in discussing one of "the most lopsided trades ever" they misspelled javaris cittenton...there should be an 'r' in between the 'c' and 'i' in his last name....should read Javaris Crittenton

Lakersfankb81 (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)lakersfankb81

[edit] Kobe's nickname

It is my understanding that Kobe's nickname is "Yao Ming is way better than I am".Chewrockan (talk) 21:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] kobe intro paragraph

Could someone, please clean up this article. I find many repeats over and over again. Dwilso (talk) 10:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you be a little more specific as to what you want cleaned up. Or you could clean up the article yourself by removing the content you think is repeated and explain why it does not belong. Jons63 (talk) 13:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What are not awards

Yao Ming should get all the awards since he is the greatest basketball player their ever will be so Kobe shouldnt win any awards.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illadelph halflife (talk • contribs) 18:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

i believe that lebron has recently become the youngest player to reach 20,000 points-younger than kobe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.17.89.133 (talk) 23:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

No, lebron is the youngest person to reach 10,000. Lebron has only 12,000ish points as of yet. 69.148.158.112 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2007-2008 Season and MVP Section

I think the 2007-2008 season should be made more current. There is mention of the drama that happened before the season started but nothing about how he has made his teammates better this season and how he has led the Lakers to the top of the tough Western Conference and a championship contender.

I also think there should be an MVP section mentioning how Kobe hasn't won the MVP award for the NBA, despite his amazing years in 05-06 and 06-07 and other accomplishments. It should also mention how he and Chris Paul are the leading candidates for the award this year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.84.77 (talk) 10:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no need for a section controversy section for the mvp titles not going to him, nor is there a need for a 2007-2008 season as its already on Los Angeles Lakers. 69.148.158.112 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits

Could someone please remove the "rape case" from the article, and all the other "Negative information" that seems to abound this article. Dwilso 21:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Wiki articles should remain unbiased and factual. The mentions in the article are factual and fairly well documented. Wikipedians should strive to be as neutral as possible and present information without biases. You may want to read more on Wikipedia:Writing better articles, Wikipedia:Lead section,and Wikipedia:The perfect article. Zodiiak (talk) 21:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
No, I was talking about the lede paragraph, when it mentioned the rape case that never really happened. Dwilso 22:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I guess this is the part you are talking about:
In 2003, Bryant made headlines when he was accused of sexual assault. The charges were dropped after Bryant's accuser declined to testify, and the two sides ultimately settled the matter outside of criminal court.
What part of that never really happened? Jons63 (talk) 22:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but apparently the judge threw out the case for lack of evidence. Dwilso 23:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The case was never "thrown out" by a judge. The case was dropped by prosecutors during jury selection after the accuser refused to testify (for a variety of reasons). However, the entire event happened and was a widely discussed controversy in 2003. One of the defining factors about a concise Wikipedia:Lead section is to "briefly describe its notable controversies." If the entire sexual assault allegation isn't a notable controversy in Kobe Bryant's life, I don't know what it is. Zodiiak (talk) 23:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I modified the lede to include the info about the judge dismissing the case vs the charges being dropped, as stated in section about case. Jons63 (talk) 23:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aston Martin Jump

Why hasn't anyone put that in the article. That has been talked about a lot lately, and deserves atleast a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D1291 (talk • contribs) 18:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Adding an external link

I am trying to get permission to qualify my website as one of the external links in Kobe Bryant's wiki page. I feel it is very relative to the subject and hope you guys can approve it? Thank you. Deucextre (talk) 08:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a strong policy on what can and cannot be added as an external link. Generally, it's sponsored sites which do not infringe on copyrights and are notable/reputable (espn, nba.com, etc.). Please review here. Also, I've removed your website from here because it can be viewed as advertising on Wikipedia, which violates another policy. Thanks. Zodiiak (talk) 16:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Kobe bryant faced many sexual assult charges, but many didn't know about the cases charged against him at the young age of 16, when he allegidly raped 3 young boys, questioning his future basketball career. Eventually, he faced the courts and underwent 4 years of community service, and 1 year of juvy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.184.111 (talk) 02:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


Are you drunk? The colorado case was the 1st instance in which Kobe Bryant had even been interviewed by the Police. The guy doesn't even get parking tickets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.41.153 (talk) 19:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Main

Regarding this statement:

"In 2003, Bryant made headlines when he was accused of sexual assault at a ski resort in Eagle, Colorado. In September 2004, the judge dismissed all charges on Bryant after the accuser declined to testify. The suit was ultimately settled in civil court."

They were two seperate cases. It should read:

"In 2003, Bryant made headlines when he was accused of sexual assault at a ski resort in Eagle, Colorado. In September 2004, the judge dismissed all charges on Bryant after the accuser declined to testify. A seperate civil suit brought by the accuser was ultimately settled out of court."

Alldayallnight20 (talk) 14:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Y Done howcheng {chat} 00:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Player Profile

Shouldn't their be information about his low career fg% to make the section NPOV? 69.148.158.112 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:00, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

That sounds right. His shooting percentage of 45% is the league average, which should be noted.--Fact finder 1780 (talk) 19:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lead image

Anyone mind if we moved Image:NikeTaipeiFlagshipStoreLaunch KobeBryant.jpg to the infobox? The free throw image is kind of blurry and you can't really see his face. howcheng {chat} 00:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2008 MVP ?

I understand that Kobe is not going to get MVP this year because he sucks if Yao Ming wasnt injured he would be MVP am I correct?

Un saludo de España. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.137.56.95 (talk) 21:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Probably should wait until it's officially announced by the NBA. There was a report from the LA Times that Kobe will be the MVP. Enigma message 22:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Im pretty sure it has been offically announced. Also, 85.137.56.95, wikipedia is not a soap box, so non-improvement related talk is not allowed, and on a personal note, Yao wasnt even close to being in the running, even if he didn't get injured, chris paul would of got it if kobe didn't. 69.148.158.112 (talk) 04:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kobe refusing to play for the Charlotte Hornets upon being drafted.

In the past few weeks, someone has been editing out the fact that Kobe refused to play for the Charlotte Hornets upon being drafted. I just wanted to add in some proof that Kobe refused to play for anyone but the Los Angeles Lakers in the 1996 NBA draft.

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html?_r=2&ref=sports&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Bryant foreshadowed his gall. In 1996, Bryant, a teenager exiting high school for the N.B.A., was not the first pick, but he exuded self-importance when he refused to play anywhere but Hollywood. With the 13th selection, with a deal to trade Bryant to Los Angeles in pocket, Charlotte chose him. But there was a point where it looked as if the Lakers’ Vlade Divac would retire rather than take part in a trade that would send him to Charlotte for Bryant. Couldn’t Bryant be a Hornet? Could he grow to love Southern sweet tea? “That is an impossibility,” Bryant’s agent, Arn Tellem, said at the time. “There are no ifs. It would not happen. He is going to be a Laker, and that’s the only team he’s playing for.” Bryant got what he wanted.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/2001/05/26/sayitaintso_lakers/

We know there are some 5-year-olds who will think we're crazy for saying this, but wasn't it a bummer the day the Lakers traded good old Vlade? Of course, history will remember it differently. But at the time, it stank of a high school kid declaring his dream to play in the NBA ... but only for the Lakers. Bryant basically strong-armed his way out of Charlotte instead of thanking the Hornets for spending a 13th overall pick on a teenager. He seemed to be giving off a vibe that only a city like L.A. was big enough to hold him. Who knew he'd be right? And poor Vlade. He threatened retirement before moving to Charlotte. He loved living in L.A. Nobody was dropping bombs on his home and his wife was an aspiring actress. He even pulled off the memorable line, "I am no longer irritating" in a shaving cream ad. He finally relented after talking with Hornets management and agreed to the trade.


For your reference, the original Wiki article on Bryant's 1996 draft situation is right here:

http://www.bballone.com/kobeb/kobebryantbio.html

Before he was chosen as the 13th overall draft pick by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996, the 17-year-old Bryant had made a lasting impression on then-Lakers general manager Jerry West, who immediately foresaw potential in Bryant's basketball ability during pre-draft workouts. He went on to state that Bryant's workouts were some of the best he had seen. Immediately after the draft, Bryant expressed that he did not wish to play for the Hornets and wanted to play for the Lakers instead. Fifteen days later, West traded his starting center, Vlade Divac to the Hornets for the young Kobe Bryant.


If we can at least verify that Kobe Bryant is similar to athletes like John Elway and Eli Manning in the sense that they refused to play for the teams that drafted them and demanded to be traded, I think it would be much more effectual. I have more links/proof that Kobe did this if needed, but I figured Sports Illustrated and The NY Times would be more credible sources. Thank you very much, and any further way that would help to contribute this information would be appreciated. Bonndiablo (talk) 18:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonndiablo (talk • contribs) 18:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

That's fine to add since it is factual, however you need to properly site such information when you do so in order to avoid controversy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fact finder 1780 (talk • contribs) 06:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. I included both footnotes in the article (the SI/NY times ones). Thank you for your help! Bonndiablo (talk) 17:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Kobe is full of himself and cant pass.

Anuj —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohil123 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand that some people don't like to read that Kobe refused to play for the Charlotte Hornets (the team that drafted him). If you have any evidence showing the contrary, please don't be afraid to point it out! If you have no such evidence, please stop editing my additions. If you feel that my edits on this matter are too POV (I'm sorry that Kobe demanded to only play for the Lakers upon turning pro) please instruct me how I can include the fact that Kobe refused to play for the team that drafted him and demanded to play for the LA Lakers. I'm starting to think that Kobe's behavior in the 1996 draft is the biggest kept secret in the world!(lol). Thank you very much! Bonndiablo (talk) 15:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

When editing on Wikipedia, be prepared to source all your information from reliable sources. That being said, if you looked carefully at the history the POV statement I removed was "West wanted Kobe so much that" and the term "Fittingly." I looked through the article to see if there was a mention of how "bad" Jerry wanted Kobe and there was none. Did West want Kobe? Of course he did, but this can be said with neutral tones. The other edits I made were inserting fact tags, such as the one I just recently added for a quote with no source. Zodiiak (talk) 03:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey Zodiiak, the Art Tellum quote you were looking for was in fact in one of the references given in the (1996 draft) section. I have added it again as a reference in the place you asked for one (http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html?_r=2&ref=sports&oref=slogin&oref=slogin , 11th paragraph/line down). Once again I have other references but I figured Sports Illustrated and The NY Times would be the most reliable sources especially on an issue such as this one. I have no problem with you removing the "West wanted Kobe so much that" and the term "Fittingly" and I feel it makes the article stronger with your changes (for your reference, these phrases/terms come from an earlier version of this wikipedia article on the 1996 draft found here (http://www.bballone.com/kobeb/kobebryantbio.html) . Once again I would like to thank Chrishomingtang for his help on the 1996 Draft section and I encourage anybody else to come up with any extra facts they can to contribute to the discussion.

My main purpose is to show that Kobe and his agent Art Tellum did demand to play for the Los Angeles Lakers and refused to play for the team that drafted him (the Charlotte Hornets) during the 1996 draft period. A lot of people throughout the web are always looking for "proof" that this actually was the case and I just wanted to make the issue clear. As always, if you have any other information on the subject, don't be afraid to post it here (I'm always interested to see it!) Bonndiablo (talk) 05:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nickname?

How come there isn't a "Nickname" section in the infoboxes for basketball players? Infoboxes for hockey players have one (eg. Wayne Gretzky). Kobe's nickname, as you all probably know, is "The Black Mamba". Should we include nicknames in the infoboxes for basketball players? Ytred (talk) 18:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The nickname parameter is deleted per consensus on the NBA Wikiproject discussion that it is often abused by ip users. It was agreed that any notable nickname should be mention within the article text. If you want, you are welcomed to add that to the lead paragraph, given that it is well referenced. Hopefully, that answers your concern. —Chris! ct 19:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't know that. Thank you very much for telling me! Ytred (talk) 23:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] redunant info

Ramblinmindblues keeps adding redunant information, Clearly something has to be done, I don't understand why he keeps doing this. Buddha24 (talk) 02:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

What redundant info? Could you be more specific about what you find redundant? Thank you. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 03:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, I believe you know exactly what I'm talking about, . Buddha24 (talk) 06:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I’m asking for clarification about what exactly you find “redundant” and why.
You blanked out a cited paragraph about Kobe Bryant’s sexual assault allegation on May 25 without stating your reasoning. I asked you to explain yourself on the talk page, but you didn’t. Then you blanked out the same sentences again the next day and wrote “redunant information,” without explaining on the talk page what exactly you found “redunant.” Could you please clarify? Thanks. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA quick fail

I am quick failing this article because of the presence of a cleanup banner that has been present since June 2007. This is one of the quick fail criteria. Please address the concerns raised by this banner before renominating the article. Best wishes, GaryColemanFan (talk) 03:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

This article isn't even close to being a GA anyways. It's riddled with POV and doesn't follow the NBA Wikiproject's guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 06:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Point of view statements are definitely a problem in this article. The references are also improperly formatted, and the Taipei Store Launch image needs a better caption. Grammar and Manual of Style compliance are also problems, and the article definitely needs copyediting. For example: "Bryant, finished the year with ten 50-plus point games[15] becoming the only player other than Chamberlain in 1961-62 and 1962-63 to do it in one season, and won his second straight scoring title." (1) There shouldn't be a comma after "Bryant", (2) the reference needs to go after punctuation, (3) the hyphens need to be replaces with en dashes, (4) the phrasing is awkward, (5) there should not be a comma after "season", and (6) there should be a reference at the end of the sentence (and possibly two, since it discusses both Chamberlain's statistics and the NBA scoring title). The article also refers to him as "Kobe" rather than "Bryant" and Shaquille O'Neal as "Shaq" rather than "O'Neal". GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the article needs a lot of work. I just did a major overhaul, going through most of the article and making various corrections. Enigma message 06:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
"Bryant's individual scoring accomplishments posted resulted in the finest statistical season of his career." Unsure how that reads. "...posted resulted..."? Enigma message 14:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

Whoever is putting [[]] on the dates, can you please stop. $$Annoyomous24$$ (talk) 16:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chock full of POV

Could someone please slap this article with one of those disputed neutrality tags please, as I appear to not have that luxury? Virtually every other statement in this article is POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 20:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

“He was awarded the season's MVP in the 2007-08 NBA season after leading his team to the 2008 NBA Playoffs as the first seed in the Western Conference.”
Why in the world is the italic part of this sentence POV? Those are just straight facts, the Lakers were #1 seeds in the 2008 NBA Playoffs. —Bender235 (talk) 10:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

"leading a team" is blatant POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 08:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

He did lead his team to the finals. That is not a POV at all because it is a fact. Just like MJ led the Bulls to six championships.—Chris! ct 19:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Negative. Please explain how you can prove that one player has "led" a team to anything. Teams win games, not individuals. Teams win championships, not individuals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 07:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Teams win, and teams are led. Enigma message 07:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Teams are led by a coach, that is correct. By the way, you are deluded if you think that one example is the only thing at hand in the dispute.
Teams may be led by a coach, they also may be led by players. Have you ever heard of players being named captain? You are blatantly POV-pushing. Enigma message 07:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That does not mean that a team was "led" by any player. They are led by a coach. If you look at other NBA player articles throughout Wikipedia, they do not refer to players as leading their respective teams. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 18:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The consensus here is that the sentence is not POV. Please stop going against consensus.—Chris! ct 20:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Please, there is no consensus on anything. What are you talking about, two people? Ha, and besides, this isn't about one sentence, it's about the whole article, which fails to follow NPOV or any of the NBA's Wikiproject guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 00:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, please stop edit-warring already. No one agrees with you. Consensus is the four people or so who have reverted you. Enigma message 01:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a note to the editors involved. It is suspected that User:Squaty squater is a sockpuppet of banned user User:TyrusThomas4lyf. See Wikipedia:Long_term_abuse#TyrusThomas4lyf for more detail.—Chris! ct 02:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kobe in Italy

Kobe didn't play much soccer in Italy, but mainly basketball in the junior teams of Reggio Emilia (where his father played). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.133.111.119 (talk) 12:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting cited material

Chrishomingtang continues to delete cited material without stating his reasoning. The paragraph reads as follows:

Bryant suffered another embarrassment when it was revealed that the NBA star likes to ejaculate on his partner’s face.[1] During the investigation, Eagle County police interviewed Bryant, who said he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after asking her if he could ejaculate on her face, and she said no. Bryant said “that’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).”[2] Bryant also admitted to using this particular sex act with his mistress “Michelle.”

The quotes are cited from the actual transcript of Bryant's interview with police, which can be found here[1].

Chrishomingtang: if you would explain your reasoning, then maybe I can understand why you deleted the paragraph. Otherwise I can only assume you intend to conceal cited information. CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 21:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for at least starting a discussion. My only problem with this addition is the reliability of the source. A quick look at that website makes me think that it is an unreliable source. The criteria for what is a reliable source is on WP:RS.
Also some of the material you added are not based on the source. For instance, you added "Bryant suffered another embarrassment when it was revealed that the NBA star likes to ejaculate on his partner’s face." But no where on the source shows us that particular statement is true. This kind of personal interpretation is prohibited because it is original research.
In the meantime, I will wait for others to weigh in before deciding on whether this should remain in the article.—Chris! ct 21:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The transcript is a public document. And "the smoking gun" is a reliable source for public documents. I think you should read the “Affidavit in Support of Arrest,” in which Detective Winters states that Bryant said he enjoyed ejaculating on his partner's face and that is was "[his] thing." [2] That's where this first sentence comes from, but maybe it could be tailored to just those facts. CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 21:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
That IS the transcript from Kobe Bryant's police interview. It's a public document. “That’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” And “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible)" are accurate per the police transcript. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I propose this paragraph be included:
During the investigation, Bryant also told police that ejaculating on his partner's face was his "thing."[3] Eagle County police interviewed Bryant, who said he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after asking her if he could ejaculate on her face, and she said no. Bryant said “that’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).”[3] Bryant also admitted to using this particular sex act with his mistress “Michelle.”
This mainatins POV, while being tailored to the transcipt and “Affidavit in Support of Arrest” CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 21:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The sentence "Bryant also admitted to using this particular sex act with his mistress “Michelle.”" is also not based on the source.—Chris! ct 21:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I've read those documents and don't see that either. That should be removed unless you have another RELIABLE source to back it up. Though I don't see a problem with the rest of it. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 22:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Alright, I've removed that part. It would read as follows:
During the investigation, Bryant also told police that ejaculating on his partner's face was his "thing."[4] Eagle County police interviewed Bryant, who said he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after asking her if he could ejaculate on her face, and she said no. Bryant said “that’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).”[5] CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 22:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
You should include this news article to substantiate the quotes.[4] Ramblinmindblues (talk) 22:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm adding this to the article:
During the investigation, Bryant also told police that ejaculating on his partner's face was his "thing."[6] Eagle County police interviewed Bryant, who said he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after asking her if he could ejaculate on her face, and she said no. Bryant said “that’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).”[7][8][9][10]
Does this sound alright? Ramblinmindblues (talk) 22:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
What are the other sources? I'll add them... CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 22:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It should read something like this. "In 2004, the 57-page transcript of Bryant's police interview was leaked to the media. During the investigation, Bryant told Eagle County police that ejaculating on his partner's face was his "thing." At the time, he asked the accuser if he "could cum in her face, she said no.” He claimed that he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after she refused his request. When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).”" Any thoughts?—Chris! ct 22:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Sounds fine to me. Should something be included about "Michelle." He said he used the same sex position with Michelle, but doesn't specicifically mention ejaculating on her face. From the CBS article[5]
Bryant: "Um, yes, with one other person. And she could actually testify I do that um, I do the same thing, I hold her from the back, I put my hands (inaudible)."
Loya: "And who's that other person?"
Bryant: "Her name is Michelle."
Loya: "And this is somebody you frequent or one time incident or ...?"
Bryant: "No. She's a, she's a frequent (inaudible)."
This is an article before the transcript went public. [6] Ramblinmindblues (talk) 22:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to add to it.—Chris! ct 22:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but how is that relevant? The fact that Kobe enjoys "ejaculating" on his partner's face -- what does it have to do with anything? Can someone please justify it's purpose in the article? Zodiiak (talk) 23:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Does not belong in the article. Patently ridiculous. Enigma message 04:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
This was actually the focal issue of the sexual assault investigation. The “Affidavit in Support of Arrest” specifically notes that Bryant said ejaculating on his partner’s face was his “thing.” Kobe claimed that he asked the young woman if he could ejaculate on her face. And when she said no, he stopped having intercourse with her and never ejaculated because he didn’t have a condom. The accuser claimed that he asked whether she “liked it if a guy came on [her] face” and then she refused and was able to free herself. In a letter correcting her original statements to police, the accuser said Bryant’s actual wording was “Do you like it when a black (m.f.) comes on your face?” This became such an important issue because if the accuser felt forced and under the control of Bryant: 1. why would Bryant even ask? 2. how did she summon the courage to refuse if she felt under his control? 3. why didn’t he go through with it, as both said he didn’t. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 08:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Still not relevant to the article. Enigma message 11:43, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
There's an article on the sexual assault allegations. Maybe CowGirl can edit war to get the ejaculation/facial stuff there instead of here. Enigma message 11:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)