Talk:Knights Templar (military order)/Archive 1

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Suggestion for a new page

I'm a wikipedia contributor in the italian language ad I want to suggest you that both in italian and french there is a list a page devoted to list the places where Templars had one of their monastry or church:it:Sedi templari and fr:Liste des commanderies de Templiers. It would be interesting to have something similar for english speaking lands.--82.51.164.166 18:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC) (dommac)

Names

Why isn't William de Beaujeu cited as Guillaume de Beaujeu? If one first is to translate names into more English-sounding, why not translate Jacques de Molay into Jack of Molay?

I don't know if there is rule about this but, as far as I know, some of these historical characters are better known in the English world by their French names. Loremaster 16:24, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Then why is Guillaume cited as William? The person who made the list of Templar Grand Masters should keep to the French (or original, as some of the Masters were not French) version of the names, not putting in English versions where he or she seems it fitting.cun 21:23, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I agree. The list should consist of the real names of the grand masters rather than their translations. Can you work on this? Loremaster 23:41, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I have tried as best as I could. cun 08:43, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I suggest to use the French list of Grand Masters to correct the misspellings. Also the title "Grand Masters from 1118 to 1314" IMHO in not correct, because the order was deleted in 1312 (1314 is the death of De Molay). Marcok 11:20, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Modern templars

Aside from the Freemasons, I know of at least three separate modern KT organisations operating in Scotland, I think that these should be referenced. There are a number of modern KT lodges, even if their connection with the original is dubious.

Temple Society/Tempelgesellschaft

The German and Hebrew editions of Wikipedia have articles on the German society founded by Christoph Hoffmann in 1861 (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempelgesellschaft; http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%98%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%28%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A2%D7%94%29). Extra-wiki sites can be found via http://clusty.com/search?query=%22Temple+Society%22++%22Christoph+Hoffmann%22 and http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22Temple+Society%22++%22Christoph+Hoffmann%22&btnG=Search (Yahoo only gives 17 results for: "Temple Society" "Christoph Hoffmann"). Could someone {I don't know enough} add a similar article in English {if one already exists I can't find it} with at least links between between it and this article. Michael {is this the accepted procedure for making comments?}

Copyvio sections

Parts of the "Heresy and pardon" section seem to be directly copied from [1] (search for "misunderstanding of arcane rituals"), but it looks like there's been some rephrasing and NPOV-ing since. The material in question should really be rewritten completely. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 20:10, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Masonic Belief Requirements (are they relevant?)

(beginning of paragraph) While the only requirement to join Scottish Rite is to be a Mason in good standing, DeMolay does require its members to profess a belief in a 'Supreme Being' as a part of its ritual. There are DeMolays from a wide variety of both monotheistic and polytheistic faiths.

Another branch of Masonry however, York Rite, does require its members to be of Christian faith. Among the three branches of the York Rite is The Commandery of Knights Templar. (rest of paragraph)

These aren't quite correct. Masons in Blue Lodge must profess a belief in a Supreme Being, and since all members of York Rite and Scottish Rite (plus others) must be Master Masons this becomes a de facto requirement. Only the Knights Templar (Commandry) level of the York Rite requires members to be Christian, the other York Rite bodies (Chapter and Council/Cryptic) don't.
Rewrote it to be:

DeMolay, like the regular Masonic (or Blue) Lodge, requires its members to profess a belief in a Supreme Being. Very broad interpretations of Supreme Being are common allowing DeMolays and Masons to come from a wide variety of both monotheistic and polytheistic faiths. Most appendant bodies of Freemasonry such as the Scottish Rite, the York Rite (including Chapter and Cryptic or Council), and the Shriners require membership in a Blue Lodge, so de facto they require such a belief in a Supreme Being.

The Commandery of Knights Templar is the third major branch of the York Rite and open only to Christians. (rest of paragraph)

But I'm not sure how relevant the various Masonic organizations' requirements about religous beliefs are to an article on the Knights Templar. Wouldn't this be a good candidate for moving to the pages for the appropriate organizations instead? Scott 13:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


In 2001, Dr. Barbara Frale found the Chinon Parchment in the Secret Vatican Archives, a document that shows that Pope Clement V secretly pardoned the Knights Templar in 1314. -- contradicts -- As he burned at the stake, Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Knights Templar, cursed King Philip and Pope Clement to meet eternal justice within the year. Pope Clement died only one month later and

Which was it? Did Clement V pardon them 3+ months later or did he die 1 month later in Nov or 1313?

Largest and most powerful?

Is it really accurate to say that it was significantly larger or more powerful than the Hospitallers? john k 05:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think so on the count of wealth - most reliable sources identify them as arguably the wealthiest organisation in Europe - as to the numbers, its hard to say.

A good online Catholic resource (ie, utilizing reliable primary sources instead of questionable conspiracy theorist or masonic material) on the two orders - www.newadvent.com, specifically:

Hospitallers - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07477a.htm Templar - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm

--DonaNobisPacem 05:59, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to dispute my own response - at the time of the Templars downfall, they owned approximately 9,000 estates, while the Hospitallers owned 19,000. The Hospitallers also held a considerable amount of political influence, as is seen in the Sicilian conflicts and the whole issue with Frederick II of Germany. Although the Templars are more famous, that is due to their downfall (thanks to Philip) - more or less a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time - rather than their wealth or power. The Hospitallers were not a strict military order, in that they maintained their charitable aspect; so it is hard to compare total numbers of members; although if just looking at knights in the field, it would seem they fielded similar numbers as the Templars in most of the major battles. The fact that Saladin had both Templars and Hospitallers slaughtered after the defeat of Hattin shows he regarded both orders with hatred. I would propose the removing of the "largest and most powerful" statement to replace it with "the most notorious." DonaNobisPacem 08:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --Loremaster 17:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Why not just say that, along with the Hospitallers, they were one of the largest and most powerful orders? "Notorious" seems rather subjective. The Teutonic Knights, for instance, massacred thousands of Balts. Are they really less notorious than the Templars? If so, how can we defend such a statement? john k 05:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
1.The article is about the Knights Templar not the Hospitallers.
2. 'Notorious' means 'generally known and talked of, especially, widely and unfavorably known'. I don't think this term applies to the Teutonic Knights regarless of the atrocities they engaged in.
--Loremaster 05:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

A question

It is said that an "Order of Sion" was found at the same time with Knights Templars in Holy Land.

Is it true ?

User:Siyac 11:17, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No...but we do have an article about that, Priory of Sion. Adam Bishop 15:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes. From PRIORY OF SION: THE FACTS, THE THEORIES, THE MYSTERY at http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/poseur3.html: there was indeed an Order of Sion based on Mt. Sion, and according to a papal bull of the 12th century, it had monasteries and abbeys elsewhere in Palestine (in particular, Mount Carmel), in southern Italy (Calabria), and in France. There is little in the official histories linking Godfroi to this order, but he is said to have founded the Order of the Holy Sepulchre, whose relationships to these other orders (the Temple and Sion) are unclear. And the official histories do not indicate any overlap between these monks and the soldier-monks of the Knights Templar. The Order seems to have occupied its "mother" abbey, Notre Dame de Sion/St. Mary of Mt. Zion, built on the foundations of the original apostolic Cenacle or Coelaneum, up until around 1291 or so, when like many Crusader holdings, it was overwhelmed by the Moslem onslaught. It actually was in the hands of the Franciscans for several more centuries, until it finally was lost to Christian ownership and was converted to a mosque. Loremaster 17:05, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Hmmmmm......that's pretty POV. I would be inclined to side with Adam Bishop in that the NPOV view under Priory of Sion is much more historically verifiable and much more reliable.DonaNobisPacem 07:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

banking?

Their activities would more accurately be described as venture capitalists and charity providers rather than bankers in the traditional sense.

Capitolo Otto

deleted text

Capitolo Otto is among the secret societies that traces a link to the Knights Templar. The society, which recruits from the Yale University campus (among other recruiting mediums), puts an emphasis on internationalism and the merger of East and West, giving central importance to the cipher 1071. Highly secretive, the order has links to European secret societies.

This points to a deleted page, it seems to be a hoax. Paul, in Saudi 04:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)