Talk:Knights Hospitaller

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Contents

[edit] Picture

The picture on the right-hand side of the main page, showing the Mamluk siege of Acre in 1291, by Dominique Louis Papety, seems to be an inverted mirror image of the original: see [1] Also, the name of the marshal of the Knights Hospitaler seems to have been Guillaume de Clermont or Guillaume de Villiers (rather than Mathieu de Clermont), as the same website indicates. The fort in the picture is NOT the Krak des Chevaliers, which was far away from Acre, and was a Templar rather than a Hospitaler fort. --Groucho (talk) 16:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Frankhouse

Does anybody know about this phenomenon associated with the Knights' Hospitallers throughout Europe? A spelling of "Frankhouse" and "Frank House" has very few results. All I know is what is on this page (put 'Frank' in Find in Page): http://www.annebrook.ie/history.php. They were apparently medieval hostels for soldier-priest types where they could rest on their way to the crusades. But they appear to have a more general function and were still in existence in Ireland at the end of the sixteenth century. Alas, I cannot find anymore about the early modern role of the Frank House/Frankhouse. Does anybody have any suggestions for reading? 86.42.125.116 04:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bringing order to Orders

The family of Orders of St John is confusing. There is a good deal of chaos in their organization on Wikipedia. I thought I'd bring a proposal here (originally proposed by User:Boven who now seems to be inactive). I'd like to see the articles written and organized thusly:

  • Knights Hospitaller (covering the general broad history of the order from its beginnings in the Holy Land to present)
  • Alliance of Orders of St John (a description of the structure and purpose of this group)
  • Order of Malta (the catholic order with extended history from the beginnings to present)
The Four Main Protestant Orders
The Four non-German Commanderies of the Bailiwick of Brandenburg
  • Swiss Commandery of the Order of St John (Switzerland)
  • French Commandery of the Order of St John (France)
  • Hungarian Commandery of the Order of St John (Hungary)
  • Finnish Commandery of the Order of St John (Finland)

I think that an organization this way would be helpful. We could also add a category such as [[Category:St John Orders]] or something like that to group them all together, as well as a possible template showing their relationships. What say ya'll?--Eva bd 19:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Where does the Scottish John Arbuthnott, 16th Viscount of Arbuthnott fit into this? - Kittybrewster 22:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It all looks quite reasonable, except, as Kittybrewster draws our attention to, the parenthetical "(England)". The order started as a resuscitation of the English Langue is not restricted to England and is now active in many Commonwealth countries and the US. John Arbuthnott was the Prior of the Scottish Priory of this order. JPD (talk) 09:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Because they are not separate orders recognised by the Alliance. Priories of recognised members are sub units. Priories or claimed priories outside of the members aren't recognised internationally. 86.134.78.14 10:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't implying that they should be listed separately, just pointing out that the "(England)" could be read as implying that they are separate. JPD (talk) 12:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Good points about the VOSJ. I just put England for convenience, but it certainly covers Scotland, the US, Canada, South Africa, etc. These would all be included in an article for the VOSJ. --Eva bd 11:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think that I may finally have time to implement these changes. There seems to be a consensus that this would improve things, so I'm not worried about that. I'll probably start by making a navigation template and will work from there. Any help that anyone can give is most welcome.--Eva bd 14:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CONFUSING

in 600 bla bla bla... What happend? did this hospital in 600 sucseed? did it last until the 12 century? What does it have to do with the knights hospitaller? Simillar with the next centence, in 800 ad bla bla. What happend? Why is this relevant. This is an encylopedia, not a bunch of facts thrown everywhere. Qustions like what for, how, why him, what next, relavence to the knights hospitallers need to be answered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.232.1.63 (talk) 23:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is a bit dense with facts. And the 11th century dates in the intro don't seem to immediately square with the early foundation. Maybe we need an article in Simple English? It might be worth it to have new readers comment on the "big picture" here. Student7 01:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
It is relevant because there was a precedent for hospitaler-like orders in Jerusalem before the crusades, and the Hospitalers themselves recognized this. That is, they didn't just appear out of nowhere in 1113, and they knew that. Adam Bishop 02:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Navigation Template

How does this look for a possible template to be used to navigate between the various orders of saint john:

v • d • e
Orders of Saint John
General Information
Knights Hospitaller · Alliance of Orders of St John
Catholic Order
Protestant Orders
Brandenburg Commanderies
Swiss Commandery of the Order of St John · French Commandery of the Order of St John · Hungarian Commandery of the Order of St John · Finnish Commandery of the Order of St John

{{Saint John Orders}}

I'm not sure how best to list each order's name and there obviously a lot of red links, but any suggestions are more than welcome.--Eva bd 18:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hospitaller in Art

from : Marie_de'_Medici_cycle#The_Disembarkation_at_Marseilles
Notice the man on the Left, Is he a Hospitaller ?

The article is confusing. The "Knights Hospitaller" is the "Knights Hospitallers of the Sovereign Order of Saint John, Knights of Malta", but the article describes the "Millitary Hospitallar Order of St. John and Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta" that is a separation of the "Knights Hospitallers of the Sovereign Order of Saint John, Knights of Malta". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.190.62.71 (talk) 18:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A confusing Article

The article is confusing. The "Knights Hospitaller" is the "Knights Hospitallers of the Sovereign Order of Saint John, Knights of Malta", but the article describes the "Millitary Hospitallar Order of St. John and Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta" that is a separation of the "Knights Hospitallers of the Sovereign Order of Saint John, Knights of Malta".84.190.62.71 (talk) 18:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes, external references, etc.

There seems to be some confusion about identifying the source of single line edits to the article. This is properly done, not by claiming that "it is in the external reference" at the bottom of the list, but by supplying a brand new footnote. Never mind that it is the reference list already. That worked when the article was brand new. Today we need to know exactly where any new sentence or paragraph is taken with a footnote please. There is one example in the text. If you are not familiar with footnotes, please look at other articles or a Wikipedia:Footnotes. Student7 (talk) 13:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

This article has insufficient in-line footnotes for its lengthy size. There should be about 30 or so for an article of this length. As of this writing there was only one. When I asked an editor why he removed the note informing people of this, he answered that "it didn't look pretty." Sorry, readers need to be warned off articles with poor documentation. THAT is why "it doesn't look pretty." It isn't supposed to! Student7 (talk) 16:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you mean " warned of " not " warned off ". A subtle difference, but with large implications. And kudos to the reference improovments by User:Rarelibra! That was a lot of work and is/will be appreciated by many. Exit2DOS2000•T•C• 03:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Crusader wiki as a reference

Someone has added the crusader wiki to the list of external links. We know what problems we have with our article. We have no idea what problems or what quality they have with theirs. I think one wiki using another as a reference is probably (with the exception of Wikicommons and Wiktionary) probably not a good idea. What info can they provide that we can't? Just found out that this is now a reference for the Crusades as well, and probably a lot of other sites. So it seems that it is really more or less spam for the wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Student7 (talk • contribs) 23:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References/footnotes

Editors are not familiar with WP:FOOT. An editor just inserted support for a 200,000 attack figure and cited an encyclopedia. We are not supposed to be citing tertiary references on scholarly stuff! This is not a high school class paper! We are supposed to be using scholarly secondary references. I realize that is sometimes difficult. However, it is better to not use figures at all unless better references can be obtained. Student7 (talk) 15:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The primary references on the siege of Rhodes crumbled hundred of years ago. 155.84.57.253 (talk) 22:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Christian Order?

Throughout the article it makes reference to Knights hospitallers as being a Christian order, but the details state that they were appointed by the Papacy. Surely this makes it a Catholic Order?--87.112.52.135 (talk) 18:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Surely you are not going to argue that Catholics are not Christians. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
They were formed prior to the Reformation so included all western Christians of the time. Student7 (talk) 11:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Knights of Rhodes

According to Hospitallers: The History of the Order of St.John by Riley-Smith, the order is officially known as "The Sovereign Military and Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem, called of Rhodes, called of Malta." At the very least, the inclusion of Rhodes should stop being reverted.--Eva bd 18:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Revived"

I think, that use word "revived" is not appropriate in situation of SMOM after 1834. Order continues (at least in Grand priory of Bohemia), yes his situation was difficult, but order was still same in persons, part of assets, law etc. Thus this was same order in 1834 as 1797, of course, without territory of Malta. Because SMOM is order and not state, this don't play any role. Use words, that SMOM "claims sovereignty" is not appropriate, because SMOM is in diplomatic relations with more than 100 states and this states recognize his sovereignty. This is not claim, but fact. Yopie 15:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I would think that the "claim" verb needs to be documented. That is, some scholar needs to say that they are merely "claiming" and that the use of the word is not just an editor's observation.
The same with "revived." In what reference is the word "revived" used? Thanks. Student7 (talk) 00:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
"Revived" was, indeed, an editor's observation. Current footnote documents continuous existence. The word "revived" requires another footnote. Please stop using that word unless a new reference is supplies. It is WP:OR. Student7 (talk) 12:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Successor?

SMOM is not successor. It's the same order. Protestant "orders" are not successors too. So, we can say Protestant churches are successors of Catholic church?!--212.86.230.114 (talk) 12:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)