Talk:KMFDM

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 KMFDM was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: September 20, 2007
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Contents

[edit] "Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid"/"Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit"

Okay, I've made some changes to this apparently highly controversial and infinitely confusing section, in an attempt to (hopefully) clarify the name issue. However, while I know I have a vast knowledge of KMFDM, I am very limited when it comes to German so if I just made things worse, then by all means revert my edits. What we need is a KMFDM fan who is fluent in both German and English, and feels like messing with it (what are the chances of getting Sascha to clear things up once and for all?). --buck 23:32, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Awesome job...and as someone who has studied German, maybe I can add my two cents. It seems to me that the majority of what has been written on this topic makes sense: That is, that the correct way to say "No pity for the majority / No mercy for the masses" (the latter translation being one to which I was always partial, just because I think it sounds better :) would be in fact "Kein Mitleid..." I always assumed Sascha used the reverse because KMFDM is constantly tongue-in-cheek (with a few exceptions...).

Now, the rumor I always heard was that it was shorted to KMFDM because Raymond Watts could not pronounce the German.

Anyway, I would like to finally address the possible alternate meaning from the "Light" single. Waaay back in high school, when I was first becoming a KMFDM fan, I took the liner notes from that particular single (which has the whole German monologue on the inside) to my German teacher, who interpreted it for me. I realize now that it's hard to tell (especially since it is printed in all caps on the inside), but it does not start out as "Musik ist macht" (which would mean "Music is more") it starts out "Musik ist Macht" (which would mean "Music is power"). Thus, the last phrase, I always felt, would be "Keiner Macht fuer dich mehr" which would mean something like "No more power for you". Thoughts?The-dissonance-reports 16:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey thanks for looking into it. I noticed the differences in caps/lowercase as well, and since German is quite foreign to me, I really haven't the knowledge to figure it out on my own. But I always figured that last German line in "Light" is yet another example of tongue-in-cheek wordplay that so frequently pops up in KMFDM songs; that is, the dual English "translations" may in fact be intentional. While "No more power for you" is probably the more grammatically accurate (and certainly follows KMFDM's anti-establishment leanings), the phrase "No one does more for you" fits very nicely in the blatant self-promoting/self-lampooning theme of this very excellent song ("KMFDM doin' it again/a treat for the freaks..."). And following another theme common in the KMFDM catalog, "No one does more for you" contradicts "No more power for you" so beautifully (especially if "music is more" and "music is power"). The way I see it, this has to be intentional. Astounding ingenuity indeed! --buck 18:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
  • KMFDM means "No Pity for the Masses", not Majority. I am not sure about the proper translation. That is what Sasha has said it means, and they use it in thier songs. Sasha has made multiple references to what KMFDM means. He sent out an e-mail once that said it meant "Fuck Rammstein", Because the band "Sold Out" to MTV. 70.125.43.99 13:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Here is where he uses "No Pity for the Masses" in the Lyrics:
    • "Ripped the system and burnt the shreds / No pity for the masses / Sympathizer I am / A communist / A prick up some asses" 13:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but note that the lyrics don't say "KMFDM stands for No Pity for the Masses" so how do we know this was Sascha's intent? Furthermore, earlier promotions, publicity, and interviews cite "No pity for the majority". Personally, I'd just assume the two are used interchangably. Heck, the German phrasing is nonsensical anyway--and Sascha has been notoriously inconsistant in providing a true "meaning"--so KMFDM may as well stand for Kapt'nK Makes Funky Disco Music. Heh, and I seriously doubt the Rammstein business was meant to be taken seriously. --buck 16:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
  • True, then we can always debate MDFMK. I guess without a quote from Sasha, the answer will not be known. 70.125.43.99 21:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Okay... I just did a pretty major edit of the Etymology section... hopefully you guys will find it useful. Here's some of the reasoning behind the changes I made:
  1. Grouped info to provide a better focus on the true history of the name. The previous edit seemed to focus too much on the grammar arguments too soon. I moved info around to provide the history first, and then details of the grammar and commonly confused name in a separate second paragraph.
  2. Start off by telling what the acronym actually means and then give the translation, not the other way around. That always bugged me.
  3. The official MySpace page (along with the new official VampireFreaks page) has been updated to reference the true name, so now all official sources are consistent!
  4. Tried to provide more robust linkage to the German grammar aspect so readers can look into some of those details if interested.
  5. Added thumbnail of 84-86 to illustrate how far back the name goes.
  6. Added a reference to the German interview mentioned by 84.178.51.130 on this talk page in which Sascha explained how "Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit" was used in the lyrics of Megalomaniac to intentionally confuse people.
  7. Other than that, the information is essentially the same.

— 216.15.124.172 08:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

    • Excellent job! I think that should fix the confusion problems once and for all (or at least stop the casual visitors from swapping "Mehrheit" and "Mitleid" all the time). I've struggled with trying to clean up this section for a while. Thanks, it looks great now! --buck 16:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Member/Ex-Member Listing

Perhaps someone might be able to enlighten the page by adding all of the member/ex-member of the band because there seems to be a lot of switching around of members that people would not be able to remember as easily as if there were one simple band. StaticPark

That's a good point, but it would be very difficult to do. The thing is, Sascha K is the founder and the only original member; everyone else just kind of rotates in and out. With each album and tour, KMFDM goes through a new change in lineup, often by bringing in past contributors (i.e. Bill Rieflin) or even merging an existing band with KMFDM (see PIG, Excessive Force, MDFMK). Furthermore, Sascha employs many guest artists for recording--especially in the Nihil/Xtort/Symbols days--all of whom he describes as members of KMFDM. Such a list would be long and probably under heavy debate (by Sascha's definition, Trent Reznor would technically be a member). Nor is it easy to define an "ex-member" of KMFDM (like, for example, David Lee Roth is an ex-member of Van Halen). Many consider Raymond Watts a central figure in KMFDM, but he has not recorded or performed with them in a few years. Is he an ex-member? Probably not, as he has skipped out on albums/tours in the past. The same with guys like Tim Skold and Mark Durante. They never official left or got fired, but neither has worked with KMFDM for some time. Is Bill Rieflin gone, or just busy? Even En Esch and Günter Schulz--while they had a very public falling out with Sascha, who's to say they are gone for good? I guess those two are the closest we can come to defining "ex-members".
That said, I may try to put together some type of section that lists the major contributors and whether they are still active with the band. --buck 18:12, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong dates in opening paragraph?

According to the offical band website [1] the group were created in Germany, not Paris, and they moved to Chicago in the mid 80's not 1991.

"Spawned in Germany during 1984, KMFDM pioneered the crossover between techno/dance and heavy metal with their signature industrial sound. Moving to Chicago in the mid-80s KMFDM was the pride of Wax Trax Records during the label’s peak. Rapidly evolving year by year through intense experimentation and touring; the band has redefined themselves with each new release."

  • A part version of their website [2] indicates that KMFDM was founded in Paris and didn't come to the US until late 1989. That's been the story in the past. R Calvete 12:19, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Name Translation, Yet Again

Please stop changing Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid to Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit. While the latter is grammatically correct, members of the band cite the former as their preferred translation and that it is intended to be a play on words. See the official KMFDM FAQ as linked from KMFDM's official website, or view the band's DVDs to access interviews where they cite this translation. Thank you. --buck 15:02, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I give up. --buck 22:05, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Well hmm. Apparently the official KMFDM myspace says "Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit." I think I'll let someone else deal with this one. --buck 01:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Has it occured to anyone that perhaps there is no true definition of the KMFDM acronym? Since the whole thing apparently was meant to be a play on words in the first place maybe Sacha eventually expanded that to be a play on the fans and journalists trying to figure it out. If I were him I would get a kick out of seeing everyone just trying to figure it out. 921Dennis 20:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General

I believe there are some inaccuracies and omissions in this article. Most notably, there's no mention of MDFMK, which Sascha Konietzko and Tim Skold formed during the brief break-up period. --LarryGilbert 10:22, 2004 Mar 1 (UTC)

I'm getting to the lack of MDFMK (A message from Satan if you turn it around), but i started En Esch, Slick Idiot, and P.I.G. first. MDFMK is on my list of articles to begin. Crackshoe 15:47, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wunderbar! ;-) --LarryGilbert 02:52, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)
I figure if i slowly get around to doing every band with a 2nd degree connection to KMFDM, i should have nearly every industrial band. should keep me busy for years. Crackshoe 04:44, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Unsure why link to firstworldmusic.com still is up -- i see no current relationship to KMFDM. will remove soon, unless theres a reason to keep it. Crackshoe 02:04, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I saw someone added yet another 'meaning' for KMFDM. Is probably better to just link to one of the vast catalogues of meanings online, rather than just expanding that one parageaph. Crackshoe 01:42, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

The new alternate meaning was never used by the band and nothing turns up with Kirk's Mother's Fat Dildo Man on Google... so I've removed it. Tremblay 22:15, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

As per discussion on Talk:Assemblage 23 and Category talk:Goth, removing from Category:Goth and adding to List of non-goth musical artists popular within goth subculture. - Korpios 02:08, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Anyone else think a different picture might be in order? Particularly, one including Sascha, since he DID cofound it and IS the only person to be on every album. --Eel 02:32, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

The picture of newbie jules bothers me too. I'm just going to go ahead and change it to an early band pic.--Flashmorbid 04:14, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I was on the KMFDM website, and it said they were from Germany, not Paris. I have read Paris a few other places, but their Biography says Germany.

  • Sascha and other early members are from Germany, however I believe KMFDM as a concept was concocted in Paris. From the official website bio:
Spawned in Germany during 1984...
and from the official FAQ:
Sascha Konietzko and painter/multimedia artist Udo Sturm founded KMFDM on February 29th, 1984, in Paris, France.
So I suppose that means both Germany and France were jointly involved in the manufacturing of weapons of mass destruction. --buck 14:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KMFDM Name Translation

According to the KMFDM FAQ:

Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid

(which loosely translated means: no pity for the majority) And yes, it is proper German to say "Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit", but the question refers to KMFDM, not proper German.

The article says otherwise.

Hi everyone, minor nitpick:
Doesn't "Keine Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" translate to "No majority for pity" or "No majority for compassion"?
--Spazzm 14:23, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)
Maybe in proper German, but KMFDM and what's proper are superficially related at best. For the record, the band's name stands for "Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" and is officially translated as "No pity for the majority". R Calvete 19:45, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)
Actually, "Keine Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" doesn't mean anything at all, as it is not proper German. Germans would have a hard time understanding it, I have serious doubts any German would use this phrase. The word "Die" is not used in conjunction with "Mitleid" as the term "Kein" is not used with "Mehrheit". If at all, it should read "Keine Mehrheit für das Mitleid" (no majority for pity), while "Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit" (no pity for the majority) is perfectly valid German. Is there an official statement of _the band_ (i.e. not of some obscure FAQ)regarding this name?cgk 8 July 2005 13:47 (UTC)
I believe the "obscure" FAQ comes directly from the band. They used to host that FAQ on their website, a few years ago. The meaning of their name is essentially nonsense, which is why it's always said "loosely" translated. -->Chemical Halo July 8, 2005 21:21 (UTC)


Hi there! Three reasons, why it's definitely "Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit":

1. Given that Sascha is a German, he'd most likely not use grammatically senseless phrases like "Kein Mehrheit für die Mitleid". (Correct: "Keine Mehrheit für das Mitleid") I'm German myself and nobody would utter such nonsensical phrases in his native language.

2. "no pity for the majority" pretty much sums up the band's anti-establishment attitude.

3. Most importantly: The phrase "Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit" appears in the intro to their song "Megalomaniac" on the symbols album.

Point 3 should settle it once and for all, shouldn't it? Listen to the band themselves! It clearly is "Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit". KMFDM's very own lyrics and the CD booklet should be more trustworthy than some obscure FAQ, shouldn't they?

Please correct that section and finally settle this dispute. 84.178.50.144 11:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC) (originally unsigned)


The actual original meaning IS "Kein Mehrheit für die Mitleid". Yes it is grammatically incorrect, and Sascha knows that. He has said many times it is sort of a play on words. Vaguely like saying "What can I do you for?" instead of "What can I do for you?" Yes, they said it the "correct" way in Megalomaniac, but in "Light" they also said "Keiner Macht Fur Dich Meir" as another alternative. That doesn't change the original definition, and neitehr does the quote from Megalomaniac. See http://kmfdm.biohazardmusic.com/bio.html for the origin of the name. 'During one day, Konietzko was cutting out headlines from several German newspapers and shuffling them around on the table when a phrase was spelled out, "Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" ' Technocratic 11:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi again. I'll retract my previous statement. Even a lot of German interviews on the Internet mention the true meaning as "Kein Mehrheit für die Mitleid", usually pointing out that this IS the deliberately gramatically wrong phrase as the band intended it. Many articles confirm that it was derived by shuffling newspaper headlines around, like http://www.pagandance.de/words/kmfdm/kmfdm2.html However this means that the translation "no pity for the majority" is actually wrong. The phrase is deliberately nonsensical and gramatically wrong. Sorry. I stand corrected. One article at http://www.entry-magazin.de/IntervKMFDM.htm states that the lyrics from "Megalomaniac" were intended to deliberately confuse people who keep on claiming the name is "wrong". Well, they obviously succeeded. ;-) 84.178.51.130 12:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC) (originally unsigned)

Very literally, the name is No Majority For The Pity. Just leave it at that. —Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 01:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] KMFDM and Marilyn Manson?

The opening paragraph mentions other artists with whom KMFDM has toured and performed. Marilyn Manson is included--I don't recall KMFDM ever performing/touring with Manson, other than Tim Skold having left KMFDM to replace Twiggy Ramirez (who left MM). Is this a recent development? --buck 21:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Nope, just another bullcrap attempt to demonize so they can scapegoat KMFDM.

Brad 16:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

The photo previously illustrating this article (a publicity shot, here) has been replaced with a fan photo from a recent concert. I understand this new photo may be more desirable because the photographer has licensed it to Wikipedia, however--no offense to the photographer--it really is not a good pic to illustrate the article for several reasons. First, it's primarily a shot of Lucia Cifarelli and Steve White (well, the back of his head), both of whom have only been in the band for a few years. Heck--old Steve, as much as we love him, has only recorded on one studio album (as of yet), and there is a photo further down in the page illustrating the current band line-up. Second, this article has no image of En Esch, Guenter Schultz, or Raymond Watts. While these gentlemen may no longer be in the band, they have contributed much to the long history of KMFDM. Third, Sascha Konietzko--the founder, frontman, and sole remaining original member--is barely visible in the photo. I think the old photo was working just fine since it was a publicity shot intended for promotional purposes, but if we need a more "public" photo, could someone perhaps post a pic that at least includes Konietzko and En Esch? Nice shot of Jules, though... --buck 22:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Right; we always prefer free, reusable content to unfree content that we are making a "Wikipedia:Fair use" claim on. In this case, the old image, Image:Kmfdm01.jpg, is problematic even for "fair use". It is tagged "publicity", but it's just linked to some student's webpage, so there's no way to know if the image was really a "work for hire" for the band, label, or their management, or if we're stealing the work of some photographer for a music magazine. We have no authorship info, no copyright holder info, and, even if we had those, there is no fair use rationale. That image is pretty much doomed to deletion. Ideally we would find a better freely-licensed image. Know any fans who have taken better photographs than this one that would be willing to license them under a free license? Jkelly 22:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
So I take it that pictures from the official website, even when credited and documented properly to adhere to the fair use clause, are out? If the criterion truly is that the photo be taken by a fan in the audience, then I guess I'll go dig through my old concert pics because I'm sure I have one that would better illustrate this article than the back of Steve's head--though I'm tempted to think that it may not be worth the effort. --buck 04:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Images from /photos/press are almost certainly good candidates for a "fair use" claim. If they're needed to illustrate different lineups, or band members we don't have any free pictures of, I doubt that anyone is going to be concerned. Why in the world would it "not be worth the effort" to upload your own photography? Jkelly 16:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
For the reason you just pointed out--that the press photos when used appropriately are good candidates for fair use. I think that's the best route to go. --buck 19:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Except that they will be replaced by free content as soon as it is available. The point here isn't to make attractive articles, but to make a free, reusable encyclopedia. If you have images that are you willing to release under a free license, why shouldn't we use yours instead of, well, whoever else comes along and donates theirs? Jkelly 00:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Contacted the site owner of the source cited by the photo uploader. He recalled the image was almost assuredly obtained from the official KMFDM website sometime between 1995 and 1997, and had been indicated as being a promo photo. I am currently in the process of contacting Sascha K of KMFDM to verify the accuracy of this information. --216.15.124.172 03:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing sources

Please note that a request for source citations is not an attempt to discredit the article or speculate on the validity any particular information included in the article. I do not dispute any of this article's content; I have added a couple citation requests to this article for the sole purpose of improving this article. See Wikipedia's notes on citing sources. --buck 14:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

For the sentence in contention, what part is the citation request referencing? If it's the part about Esch's orginal name being Klaus Schandelmaier, a reference is provided on the main En Esch article (a link to BMI's repertoire database, showing all of Esch's songwriting credits attributed to Klaus Schandelmaier). In such a situation, is it really necessary to cite a reference every time a fact appears anywhere in Wikipedia? This seems a little impractical to me, since then in the strictest sense of this rule every sentence of every article should have a citation reference. --216.15.124.172 00:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Buck, I don't think there was a contest on the validity of the article, its just the information came directly from the source. Is there a way then you can come up with a creative reference from kmfdm.com/.net or whereever if you need it. I think linking to En Esch is enough, if its that sentence. Good job at keeping the article growing though. --vi 05:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry 'bout the confusion. My citation request was not intended to verify En Esch's birth name; rather, to find a source for the early "coming together" of KMFDM's key personel. I think we need a source for this:
"Sturm had no lasting musical aspirations and Konietzko was interested in studio recordings more than the occasional art-performance, therefore he joined forces with then-Hamburg, Germany-based studio owner Raymond Watts and drummer Klaus Schandelmaier..."
Musical aspirations, Watts as a studio owner, etc. It's a good idea to cite that info. Again, not that I dispute any of it. I think this article is well-written and strong. I'd like to see the KMFDM article consistently achieve a higher standard than all those sub-par fanboyish band articles, much in the way that KMFDM themselves consistently achieve a higher standard than all those sub-par fanboyish bands (see articles on Taime Downe, Fall Out Boy). And if that's really Sascha contributing to the article, then we are certainly at an advantage!  :) --buck 15:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
That is Sascha. Email him if you don't believe me. --63.23.42.218 03:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Relax man, I believe you. I've emailed him several times over the years. --buck 04:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
63.23.42.218, it is not a matter of whether or not Sascha edited the page himself (which is very likely given the fact that the IP address of the editor in question traces to Seattle, and he also edited a German article about Sascha's grandmother). The issue at hand is that (1) articles cannot contain "original research", and (2) all information contained within Wikipedia should strive to be independently verifiable through hard references. As silly as it may sound to most of us, Sascha's first-hand recollection of past events would be considered original research in this instance, and additionally it is not easily independently verifiable through a static reference (i.e. anyone wishing to verify such information would have to email Sascha and wait for a response). I believe, however, that if Sascha were to publish this information elsewhere first, be it in an interview, FAQ, history section on the official KMFDM site, or some other reputable and consistent outlet, that would satisfy both conditions I mentioned earlier. Of course, that is just my understanding of the content-creation guidelines on Wikipedia, so any further discussion would be appreciated. --216.15.124.172 04:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
@ 216.15.124.172,: I think Sascha posting here himself should be enough of a reference. I do see what you're getting at, but I don't think that he will "edit" the history section of the KMFDM website or say something that specific in an interview. How often does the subject of a wikipedia article actually contribute? Thumbs to Sascha for that. I believe that in this rare case, that the standards of citing should be ignored. How would everyone feel if he were to post on the discussion? -- mando 04:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I am 99% sure that is Sascha himself. The ip is from seattle, he edited the german KMFDM article, plus the german article on his Grandmother. Which I think up until now, only he knew about her. So it's either Sascha, or someone who is fluent in german, lives in seattle, knows A LOT about KMFDM, and knows something about Sascha's family history. -- mando 04:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't seem as if Sascha will contribute anything more. His direct quote was "fuck'em". It was good for the two days it lasted. -- mando 05:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, that is highly unfortunate. His contributions would be quite valuable. Sascha, perhaps you can pop over to this talk page and provide some pointers/clarifications? That would certainly get around this citation issue, at least. --buck 12:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
That's what I asked him to do. I even linked here. -- mando 12:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Udo Sturm

Would someone be kind enough to write a stub for Udo? -- mando 23:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link

Someone named Dan or something reverted the link I put up, calling it spam because I own it. I do own it, but obviously if Dan would've clicked the link he would see it is indeed a KMFDM fansite and not spam. I think he has it out for me now, so please if he comes back revert any edits he makes. Thank you --mando 20:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes that would be me. I removed the link because mando added it in violation of WP:EL, which states that one should not add links to websites that they own or maintain. The guideline is pretty clear on that. Furthermore, one fansite per article is the accepted standard. If a consensus is reached among regular editors here that beatbybeat.net is the most appropriate fansite for KMFDM and wish to replace the other fansites with beatbybeat.net then fine, I have no issues with this. All I ask is that WP:EL is respected. Thanks --AbsolutDan (talk) 21:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
P.S. no I do not "have it out for you." I only have issues with certain edits you have made lately, as I have mentioned on your talk page --AbsolutDan (talk) 21:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Dan stay out of here, the link was taken care of Mando -- 63.23.28.55 23:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Logging out and editing under your IP does not a consensus make. Please stop adding the link in violation of guidelines. --AbsolutDan (talk) 00:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Ummm you should check the ips again --mando 01:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
R Calvete just pointed out the obvious, which should be the nail in the coffin for this link - the site hasn't even launched yet! The main page says "Coming Soon" --AbsolutDan (talk) 05:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Speaking of the external links... AbsolutDan brought up a good point about the growing number of fan sites listed under the external links. This list had been kept fit and lean for a long time, but recently it seems to have exploded with every random fan site there is. In my opinion, the following links should be kept:
http://www.kmfdm.net
http://www.kmfdmstore.com/
http://www.myspace.com/officialkmfdm
http://www.kmfdmfaq.com/faq.htm
http://www.theultraheavybeat.com/ (a fansite, but probably the best to option among the bunch since bandmembers often post on the forums)
(in that order)

and the following links should be removed for the following reasons:
http://www.kmfdmradio.net/ (another fansite, and doesn't even work anymore)
http://www.kmfdmnews.com/ (another fansite, not even in English, more appropriate for French article)
http://www.kmfdm.ru/ (ditto, more appropriate for Russian article)
http://www.theswining.com/ (not even a KMFDM site, should be on PIG/Watts article if anywhere)
http://www.raymondwatts.com/ (same reason, another PIG fansite)

I'm up in the air on the following sites, but leaning toward removal:
http://www.kmfdm.biohazardmusic.com/ (decent fansite, but just that, another fan site)
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=Btnem97i7krjt~C (not really any added value of information)
http://www.lyricsdir.com/kmfdm-lyrics.html (I guess this one is kind of unique compared to the others, would probably let it pass)

I think the article is better served by keeping the list small and focused. This is supposed to be an encylopedia article, not a fansite link page. People who are really interested in the band beyond a passing interest in reading a little bit about who they are here on Wikipedia will always be able to find fansites via links on the official KMFDM page and search engines. I know I've been a little long-winded here, but anybody have any other thoughts? 63.107.220.142 00:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I think a fansite should only be included if it contains accurate and verifiable information that is not simply a repeat of what's included on the KMFDM official site. By this arguement, I would include the Ultra Heavy Beat for the above reason, but not the lyrics directory since all the KMFDM lyrics are available on the official site. Regarding mando's site, I haven't commented simply because the site is not up and running yet. I think it should be left off until the content is available. Right now it's just a registered domain. Another site that should probably stay on the links list is the official myspace page, since it is operated by the band (or representatives of the band) and occasionally has info not available at KMFDM.com. Plus readers can go there to access samples of KMFDM's music, which is what makes them a notable subject for wikipedia in the first place. Peace. --buck 16:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There really is no reason we should not have the links back. Take mine out I don't care, but let's leave the links the way they were. They were fine.(thanks dan) --mando 20:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
If we opt to put them back up (which I'm not entirely opposed to, excepting the lyrics directory), perhaps we could have some section headings to distinguish between "official" KMFDM sites, discussion forums, fan sites, music guides, etc. Just a thought... --buck 20:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The external links as they are now look good. I don't regularly edit this page, but I regularly watch it. --vi 21:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the removal of the official MySpace, VampireFreaks, and Ultraheavybeat fansite links for the following reason:

WP:EL has the following to say about what should not be linked:

Certain kinds of pages should not be linked from Wikipedia articles. Except where noted, this list does not override the list of what should be linked. For example, if the subject of an article has an official website, then it should be linked even if it contains factually inaccurate material. (bold added)

If you then take a look at what WP:EL says about what should be linked:

An article about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to that entity's official site, if there is one. (bold added)

and

If there are many fansites for the topic covered by the article, then providing a link to one major fansite (and marking the link as such) may be appropriate. (bold added)

The MySpace and VampireFreaks pages are both official pages operated by the band, and the ultraheavybeat.com is a major fansite that has been chosen by consensus as the best fansite by regular editors of this page.
– 63.107.220.191 19:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Bandmembers themselves seem to endorse the Ultra Heavy Beat by frequently posting on the message boards. Keep it. --buck 20:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not really a fansite, more of a message board. KMFDM goes there because it is the ONLY messageboard devoted to KMFDM on the internets. Sascha hardly endorses the place, he rather despises it.

[edit] Chronolgy - Columbine & Break-up

The article discusses Columbine first (in the topic "Controversy") and then discusses the break-up. This could be confusing since the break-up in January 1999 was before Columbine April 1999. (Xsxex 13:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC))

Good point. I've made the appropriate changes. --buck 20:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name dropping?

The section I edited out lists a number of bands that may be significant to someone, but is it encyclopedic or relevant to people in general who are visiting the page for more information about KMFDM? Thier opinion might matter, but it needs to be set up as to why before the opinion is just trotted out. Hackwrench 04:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't have a problem with the section before. I think maybe with this edit, it could be best suited to say bands they are associated with or similar too in genre. I don't know, I'm mulling it over, but buck is the one that does most the work on this page. I just read it. -- vi 02:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's a matter of simple "name dropping". The purpose of the wording of the original sentence was to identify 3 things:
  1. KMFDM's genre as being industrial rock
  2. Their role as a "gateway band" to the genre for larger audiences
  3. Indicating Sascha's alternate description for their sound (UHB).
I don't feel there's a problem with mentioning the other bands by name, along the same lines as if you were to discuss The Who as being a pioneering British rock band, it would be appropriate to make that acknowledgement alongside the Beatles and Rolling Stones. By mentioning the other bands, it conveys the point that KMFDM, at several points in their career, have flirted with mainstream popularity and introduced some people to industrial music who might not have otherwise been exposed to it, but they are not the first or only band to have done so. I'm not entirely opposed to removing the references to the other bands, but if you do, then you either end up with something misleading that makes it sound like they were the first or only band to make inroads with mainstream audiences or something awkward like "KMFDM, along with some other bands, ...". I definitely think everything else about the sentence should remain the same, and at the very least UHB should remain described as their "sound" (and not their "genre", since it's not really a genre at all). We should really get consensus before removing that information, since it seems to be a somewhat contentious issue.
—216.15.124.172 15:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I've been out of town for the past few weeks and thus have not kept up with the recent changes. Anyway, my thoughts on the name-dropping:
While recognized within the ranks of Ministry, Skinny Puppy, and later, Nine Inch Nails, as pioneers in introducing industrial music to mainstream audiences, KMFDM describes their sound as "Ultra-Heavy Beat".
Looking over it now, I can see how this reads as a showcase of more mainstream industrial bands (note that "industrial" is a broad term) rather than a legitimate inclusion of similar band articles. A rephrasing of the sentence is necessary, but I do feel that Ministry, Skinny Puppy, and NIN are all worth a mention in the article for several reasons. In the early-to-mid 90s, so-called alternative music was launched into the mainstream (MTV, college radio, etc--at least in the US; I can't speak for other places) and these bands, although quite different in sound and style to the aficionado's ear, were grouped into the "industrial" sub-genre. KMFDM was quite often mentioned alongside these other groups. This was also the height of KMFDM's success, at least from a video/radio/danceclub playlist perspective ("Drug Against War", "Juke Joint Jezebel"). Also, although it violates NPOV, most KMFDM fans will easily point out that ANGST and especially NIHIL are very "mainstream-sounding" albums, considering they were released in 1993 and 1995, respectively. Compare them to NIN's Broken and Downward Spiral, Ministry's Psalm 69, Stabbing Westward's Wither Blister Burn & Peel, and the first Gravity Kills album, and even David Bowie's Outside. All sold a bazillion copies and had massive radio singles. Who inspired who? Who copied who? It's hard to say, although it does show that KMFDM, albeit briefly, were considered mainstream (it is evident that at the time Sascha K preferred to distance himself from the mainstream industrial affiliation, thus the "Ultra-Heavy Beat" tag). But perhaps the most important reason that Ministry, Skinny Puppy, and NIN warrant a mention--they have all been directly affiliated with KMFDM. Both William Rieflin (Ministry) and Nivek Ogre (Skinny Puppy) have recorded and performed live with KMFDM, and Trent Reznor (NIN) did a remix for the "Light" single and signed Raymond Watts to Nothing Records. KMFDM also have similar connections with My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult and Marilyn Manson, two other "mainstream industrial" groups of the time. --buck 00:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] T-shirt section

I removed the following section, which was added on 8 Aug 06:

"The aforementioned shirts are a popular item amongst KMFDM fans, many of them become collector's items due to them being discontinued. The shirts usually feature their album/single cover art on the front, and on the back, a lyric from one of the songs on that particular record. When discontinued, sometimes they are reprinted with minor alterations. A popular example example is their Godlike shirt. The back of the original shirt featured the Godlike lyric "I Will Pray!" when re-printed sometime in the late 90's. They changed the back of the shirt's text to "Govern Your Soul!", a lyric from the song Vogue. Which also makes this particular shirt anachronistic, because Vogue came out in 1992, Whereas Godlike came out in 1990."

This seems rather unencyclopedic in that it's more promotional than anything (though as we all know, KMFDM is all about blatant self-promotion!). I understand a mention of KMFDM shirts and their desirablity is beneficial to the article, and we have that in the "artwork" section, perhaps with a tad bit of elaboration. But I'm guessing we shouldn't discuss the various details of specific shirts (in addition to the "Godlike shirts", there have been quite a few limited editions/rarities). Your thoughts? --buck 15:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. The collectible t-shirts don't warrant anything more than a passing mention, and definitely not an entire section.
—63.107.220.191 20:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genre

Someone's changed the genre to 'Neue Deutsche Härte' - personally, I beleived 'Industrial Rock' to be a better classification. Does anyone else want it reverted? Jimeree 08:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

That same IP changed a half dozen articles, taking articles with 3 or more genres and reducing the band down to "NDH-metal" band. It was ridiculous. L'Ame immortelle, even! I reverted a number. If the IP would like to ADD information about NDH, fine. Otherwise, like my edit summary for this article says, it's ridiculous to name KMFDM after a genre whose "pioneers" released their album 8 years after KMFDM started pumping out records. - BalthCat 08:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. If KMFDM has incorporated elements of NDH into some of their records, then reference it that way, perhaps on the album articles. While KMFDM was originally based in Germany, they are hardly a NDH band. --buck 16:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soundtracks

I removed Streetfighter II: The Animated Feature and CSI from the soundtrack list. Since this is a discography, we should probably only include commercial soundtrack discs and avoid instances where KMFDM's music was included in a TV show or film. Like when "Juke Joint Jezebel" was on 90210--this isn't part of their discography. I don't mean to be nit-picky, nor am I opposed to including this information in the article; I'm just trying to keep things consistant. Peace. --buck 01:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caustic debacle

I removed this paragraph from the "Controversy" section--

During the fall of 2006, regional powernoise force Caustic was tapped to play five dates throughout the midwest. After the initial performance at the House of Blues in Chicago, Caustic was abruptly removed from the tour. A phone conversation between Konietzko and Caustic's Matt Finale indicates that a sole promotional flyer for a Caustic-related event was the offending item, without further clarification. The internet backlash was severe, with KMFDM leaving the stage early at several dates - credited to a veritable army of scorned Caustic fans. In Cleveland, KMFDM was booed from the stage, and security was overrun by displeased members of the audience. A Caustic fan by the name of Eric Oehler was arrested during this fracas for reportedly micturating upon Konietzko's sampler.

If someone can provide a source, remove some unnecessary excess (fan names?), argue relevance, and clean up the paragraph to fit NPOV, then perhaps we can include this info in the article. Otherwise, it should probably be in the Caustic article if anywhere. --buck 20:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I just did a little research into this thing and the best I can gather is that members of Caustic managed to get themselves thrown off the tour by dispersing promo flyers for a non-House of Blues venue at the House of Blues show in Cleveland, violating the venue's policy. See blogs here. I haven't seen anything about a "severe backlash" with booing fans and such, nor about security being overrun and fans being arrested. Perhaps we'll hear more about it later. Either way, it's not really worth a mention in the wikipedia article anyway. Peace. --buck 21:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph in question is a fabrication. Caustic was thrown off the tour for supposedly throwing flyers at an earlier show (Chicago maybe?). However, I was at the Cleveland show, and can say unequivocally that KMFDM did not leave the stage early, and they were not booed from the stage as this joker states. The dead giveaway that this was a farce should have been when he claimed some guy was arrested for peeing on Sascha's synth stand!
– 63.107.220.191 15:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually it was *one* flyer. They'd been distributed already by someone with no affiliation with Caustic. A live member of Caustic tossed *one* copy from a balcony to no one in particular, which was then traced back to Caustic. And for that they were banned from the tour. KMFDM was never booed off stage for any subsequent tour dates, nor has Eric Oehler ever peed on a synth stand, publicly or otherwise. – 64.73.12.253 20:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC) (originally unsigned)
I certainly was never arrested for micturating on anything.--Nulldevice 03:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I've been looking at some articles on other bands lately. Most of them have nifty infoboxes with color and the band's logo. I think we should format KMFDM's infobox as such. It would not be hard for someone to make a tumbler logo for the box. I also think we should remove that list of past members. They were really never members, but contributors. Esch, Schulz, Watts, Durante, and Rudolph Naomi are worth a mention though. - 76.181.10.197 00:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

How about restricting the Former Members section to En, Watts, Schulz and a couple more and setting up a "Contributors" section in the box to hold the rest ?

Tycobbuk 14:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps a 'Notable Past Members' section within the box - after all, 76.181.10.197 is right in that most of the listed members aren't truly significant figures in the band's history. Maybe a list of all the past members could be placed within the article itself. Also, with KMFDM having so many associated acts, I feel the 'Associated Acts' section of the new infobox requires either expansion or deletion. Perhaps the latter is more suitable, given that all side-projects and so forth have a separate section within the main article anyway. Jimeree 13:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a tough issue, really, because you can't very well imply that the majority of the contributors have been "insignificant". Now there have been quite a few musicians associated with KMFDM that have also had noteworthy accomplishments outside of the band. The trouble is, how do we define the criteria for inclusion? They had to have appeared on more than just one album? Been with the band for "x" number of years? Obviously En Esch, Gunter Shultz, and Raymond Watts would be included. But how about Tim Skold? Bill Rieflin? Mark Durante? --buck 15:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps that section of the infobox should just be removed, and a list of past members placed within the article. Could a timeline of member contributions similar to that found on the Pantera page be constructed? I suppose the difficulty is that there have been a lot more KMFDM contributors over the years. Jimeree 20:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah that could be tough...I believe each album has a different lineup, as well as each tour. Why does Sascha have to make things so complicated? Why can't KMFDM be more like Green Day?  ;) --buck 02:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's have it this way. Current Members, notable past members. Let's just stick with Schulz, Esch, and Watts. Skold came rather late into the game, and Rieflin only contributed to a few albums. What da ya say? When I have some free time, I'm changing it. If no one likes it, revert that mofo _ Mandonine 21:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me, though I'd say let's go ahead and include Skold and Rieflin. Skold's on three studio albums as well as MDFMK and is quite notable outside of KMFDM (Shotgun Messiah, Marilyn Manson). Rieflin's been appeared at least six studio albums and several tours, and he is a notable musician with bands (Ministry, RevCo, REM). So while they did show up later than the other guys (and regardless of our, uh, opinions of "the Skold years"), Skold and Rieflin have actually made some pretty substantial contributions to the Ultra Heavy Beat. Peace. --buck 22:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, it's all edited out to the specifications we all agreed upon. After reading through the articles, I noticed it mentions most of the past contributors. Do we really need a list of a bunch of people who don't have articles to themselves? - Mandonine 04:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discography Tables

I've added tables to the discography section as they appear on quite a few other bands' pages, and, at least in my opinion, look considerably better than a simple list. However, if they're annoying anyone, then I don't mind if they go. Jimeree 09:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I like it - Mandonine 21:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remix List

I've noticed as of late that there's been a steady trickle of alleged remixes being added to the article in the form of one massive list... has anyone actually verified the validity of each entry in this list? Two entries stick out to me as being potential vandalism: Missing Persons - "Walking In LA" and A Flock Of Seagulls - "Space Age Love Song" (which, while both being fun little New Wave songs, hardly seem like the kind of music the band would remix). There really ought to be some sort of peer verification process before new entries are added to that list. Can anyone vouch for these two, or any of the other less obvious ones?
– 63.107.220.191 22:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I'd do it, but I don't want to. :) To keep it simple though, why don't we just exclude anything that isn't mentioned on the KMFDM official website? Here's the list. However, it's also important to note that most of the current and past members of KMFDM are quite prolific in their musical output outside of the band, meaning some of these remixes may not actually be credited to KMFDM but to one particular member. In which case they don't belong in this article anyway. Personally, I vote to remove the whole list. It's on readily available on the website, so why not just refer people there rather than clog up the page? --buck 01:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the questionable entries pending a verifiable reference (Flock of Seagulls, Missing Persons, Bloodhound Gang). I also removed U2's "Mysterious Ways" because this isn't a remix--it's a cover version. I'm still in favor of doing away with this whole list anyway. --buck 16:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the whole list should be removed and a link to the remix list on the official page should be left in its stead, but I was the one who originally brought it up... it's just getting so long and in my opinion distracts from the meat of the article. I guess wait another day or two for someone to pipe up if they have a compelling argument to keep it before deleting it.
– 63.107.220.191 23:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I also agree with you on the deletion. Most sites would simply have the link to the official page. Therefore, in order to clean up the page bit, we should do the same. --Mfaith1 13:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
KMFDM has made a remix of bloodhound Gang (ref 1), same for A Flock of Seagull (ref 2) and for Missing Persons (ref 3). So I add again this 3 remixes really made by KMFDM --82.224.198.154 22:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Well we're back at square one. We all know that Sascha & Co. have contributed much to the world of electronic music. KMFDM/Sascha has dozens, if not hundreds, of remixes to their credit, but at what point does listing all these remixes go from encyclopedic information to reverberating what's on the KMFDM website and simply bombarding the reader with every little factoid relating to KMFDM? I still move to either delete the list entirely or else set up a separate article for a KMFDM discography and include the list there. Take a look at the Nine Inch Nails discography. It's completely separate from the NIN article and includes not just LPs and singles, but live albums, EPs, soundtracks, bootlegs, and remixes for other artists (even KMFDM!). And all this for Nine Inch Nails! A KMFDM discography would be ten times as long! Why try to cram it all into the article? C'mon, let's do our part for the Ultra Heavy Beat! --buck 21:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree entirely. As prolific as KMFDM has been over the years, consistently releasing album after album, their library of content is certainly worthy of a separate article. I say, let's go for it.–m.f (t • c) 02:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've started a discography here. I've left the information in the KMFDM article until I (or someone else) can complete the discography, since I don't have time right now to add the singles, EPs, sountracks, videos, and remixes. Let me know what you think, and how we can improve it! Peace. --buck 16:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Looks great so far. If I have some time today, I will try to complete it. Otherwise, great work!–m.f (t • c) 16:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed images...

This Betacommand person has been going through and removing album cover images from the various articles and tagging them for deletion... so far he/she has hit 84-86 and Adios. His/her rationale is that the album cover fair use template is not enough to justify fair use. R_Calvete was the original uploader of 84-86.jpg, and I'm pretty sure he took the photograph himself. Unfortunately, I don't think he's been around lately to update the source information. Can somebody try to contact him? From the link on his user page, it looks like his email address might be <removed to avoid spider spam>. It would be a shame if the image was lost because of overzealous deletion tagging.

The Adios cover (Adios_album_cover.jpg) was uploaded by Scraggy4, but it looks like they are actually still active, so maybe someone can leave a message for them requesting an update on the source information (this one's not quite as urgent because we can get a new copy of the image from Amazon if necessary, whereas the 84-86 one was homemade, and the album itself is not widely commercially available).
– 63.107.220.191 15:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On the subject of name translations

Does anyone know where I can get translations of KMFDM songs (short of running lyrics through a bad translator)? I can't find them anywhere..:Stirb Nicht Vor Mir:. 05:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resurgence of problems with name changing

It's funny how we didn't have a problem with people changing "Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid" to "Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit" for over a year, but ever since the 84-86 cover was deleted just over a month ago, the name change problem has cropped up again at least two times. Would someone with an account be able to re-upload the 84-86 cover? The original version is still available at answers.com (it's actually the original version that was on wikipedia, since that's where answers.com got it from). Sooner would be better than later, since who knows how frequently answers.com updates their copy of material from wikipedia, and if we miss it, it could be gone forever. Just make sure to add proper fair use rationale so it doesn't get deleted again. The image was originally created by wikipedia user R_Calvete.
– 67.43.92.191 14:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's just my browser, but it appears answers.com might block direct linkage to image pages from non-answers.com sources, so to get to the image go to the main answers.com article page, scroll down to the wikipedia section, and click on the 84-86 cover to get to the full-res image page I mentioned earlier.
– 67.43.92.191 14:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I got it up, and here's the image page. If you please, could you (or someone) check it out and verify the info? I tried to stick with the fair use criteria using other KMFDM album covers that are still up as a reference point, plus I included a paragraph describing its importance in the KMFDM name situation. Also, I don't have time to add it to the 84-86 article and the discography. Thanks! Peace. --buck 01:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Great, thanks! I restored it in the other locations, so we should be all set. Hopefully this will re-stop the name changes from happening.
– 67.43.92.191 13:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] KMFDM template

Hey, guys. I just created a KMFDM template for inclusion on KMFDM-related pages. It's just a first attempt, so please edit it however you see fit. Cheers! -- rynne 02:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge MDFMK into KMFDM?

I am suggesting we merge the MDFMK article into the KMFDM article. MDFMK was a short-lived project featuring prominent members of the previous incarnation of KMFDM, and when KMFDM reformed the following year, all three MDFMK members rejoined KMFDM. Other side projects such as Excessive Force and KGC involved members not otherwise associated with KMFDM, or, at least in the case of Excessive Force, resulted in more than one album. I think the information from the MDFMK article would fit nicely in its own section within the KMFDM article (in fact, the article already has the basis for this section here). Not long after MDFMK's dissolution, Sascha Konietzko hinted at the possibility recording new material as MDFMK, however, since Lucia Cifarelli is now a central member of KMFDM and Tim Skold has left KMFDM to work with Marilyn Manson, the possibility of a future MDFMK project appears slim at best. This is mere speculation of course, and KMFDM has been known to throw curveballs. :) So if and when Sascha produces new MDFMK material, then there will be enough independent history to warrant a separate article, but until then, I think it belongs most appropriately in its own section of the KMFDM article. Agree/disagree? Peace. --buck 21:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it should be merged. MDFMK are not going to reform, KMFDM are as active as can be. MDFMK is basically the un-official KMFDM album between Adios and Attak. JayjayAbnormal 02:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

One thing I'd like to add is that MDFMK is simply the KMFDM name backwards. Blatently obvious, yes, but that further exemplifies the idea that the MFDMK project was intended to have a direct correlation with KMFDM (unlike side-projects like Excessive Force and KGC). Perhaps it was intended as an extention of KMFDM, or even a (temporary) replacement. There was an interview with Sascha during the publicity for ATTAK in which he said that he decided to regroup KMFDM, in part, at the request of fans who pointed that it was essentially the same band anyway. I wish I could dig up that interview... --buck 20:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but I have to disagree, MDFMK is not KMFDM. the sound is different (though you might say that not every KMFDM album sounds the same), the look is different (no black frame around the album picture, heck it's not even a drawing (not even by Brute! though he didn't do Nihil either)) and the band wore odd looking costumes on stage. There's also the fact that KMFDM is/was under contract for Universal (not Waxtrax or Metropolis) and Sascha apparantly doesn't have the rights yet (otherwhise he would/could (re)release unreleased songs, like 'Missing Time'). I btw read that the Kapt'n said he was asked to rejoin by Metropolis. He also said he asked En Esch and that other guy back (with regrouping) which would also point to MDFMK being a side project. and then there's offcourse the fact that the band name for their only selftitled album is MDFMK and not KMFDM. the only mention of KMFDM is that is that the album is published by kmfdm,inc. and aslong as Sacha K. doesn't re-releases this album under the bandname KMFDM it's still made by MDFMK. also; KGC is made by 2/3rd KMFDM just like MDFMK at the time (Sascha and Skold; who is btw not a member anymore, but Lucia was not a member). And the activeness of kmfdm is irrelevant, they made their KGC album while still maintaining their one release a year policy. I btw think I also read that Sascha doesn't exclude a reunion, which would then again become just like KGC; 2 KMFDM members (sascha/Lucia) and Tim Skold (who's now a member of Manson's gang, though I wish he's leave that transvestite and come back to the Kapt'n). btw another point maybe; do they play MDFMK songs live? Not when I was there. so maybe that's an indication? but then again I also dissagree on the fact that everybody sees the books/movies 'the running man' and 'thinner' as written by Stephen King while he wrote it under the name Richard Bachman. anywho, just leave it be. on the other hand, who cares I know them already anyway :D . btw: I've heard the Kapt'n is also involved here on wiki so maybe he can give the definitive answer. KMFDM SUCKS!!!!! greetz, --Evil Flip-- august 15th 2007 PS ToHuVaBoHu will be kick ass!!

[edit] Good Article Review

Hello,

I have completed the review of this article and decided to quick-fail it. A full review has not been undertaken at this time.

The primary reasons for this quick-fail are: Lack of references and image problems.

For example, the main image close to the top of the page is currently tagged for deletion. And the mutliple sections of this article contain no references at all. I'd suggest checking out WP:Verifiability and WP:CITE for some assistance on bringing this up to scratch.

Thanks for your work so far, and if you feel my error has been in review, you can choose to take it to a good article review. I am also contactable on my talk page. Pursey Talk | Contribs 06:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Self-reference

I think it is worth pointing out that one of KMFDM's recurring lyrical themes includes self-reference.

Examples include:

  • _Light_ "KMFDM / doing it again / a treat for the freaks / truth or dare?";
  • _Megalomaniac_ "KMFDM / better than the best / megalomaniacal / and harder than the rest." Wilymage 03:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

This is mentioned in the "Musical style" section, albeit briefly. Feel free to expand it--however, I'd advise against listing every song where KMFDM sends a shout-out to themselves, since there are over a dozen or so such songs, and it really isn't the stuff of an encyclopedia. Peace. --buck 15:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Gotta love shameless self-promotion... wilymage 23:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that's just one of many reasons why I love KMFDM. Peace. --buck 13:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Simply to add to the inclusion of their name in lyrics, they had that Introduction song at the end of one of their albums, WWIII I think it was... just thought I would throw that out there for some humor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.166.190.11 (talk) 00:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy section

I made some edits to the recent addtions to the Controversy section to condense the New Life shooting and the Youth With A Mission (YWAM) shooting paragraphs into one item since they reference the same source and they are part of the same string of events. They appeared to be intentionally redundant.. I also noticed that the same user who added these also added the section on Jokela school shootings, and these are the only additions ever from that IP. Which brings me to my question, are there guidelines for what is considered controversy? Wikipedia says, "A controversy or dispute is a matter of opinion over which parties actively disagree, argue, or debate. Controversies can range in size from private disputes between two individuals to large-scale disagreements between societies."

By that logic, should these sections simply be removed or moved elsewhere? Vizzini101 (talk) 04:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Apparently every nut job with a gun has a copy of Symbols laying around, yet fails to grasp the meaning of the lyrics. Anyway, I was wondering myself about if there is even any "controversy" in the KMFDM connection to the most recent shootings (Jokela and Colorado churches). The only source for the church shootings comes from WorldNetDaily's impeccable journalism (note the sarcasm). Heck, they even got the band's name wrong (KMRDM?). I think this is yet another clear case of the post-Columbine backlash. KMFDM (unwarrentedly) became scapegoat superstars after the whole Columbine thing, and with these recent shootings, any mention of KMFDM will bring the whole thing full circle--even though KMFDM's music was a tiny snippet of the killers' respective musical tastes. The church gunman even name-checks Marilyn Manson in the WND article, but the shootings aren't even mentioned in the Manson page. For one to say "the killers liked KMFDM, so KMFDM is controversial", we would have to apply that logic to every other similarity ("the killers wore black t-shirts, so black t-shirts are controversial", "the killers had guns...", "the killers were teenagers...", "the killers all lived in Colorado..." etc). All of this is, of course, my POV so I'm not going to remove the mention of the church shootings, but I do think it's kind of a stretch to label it as a controversy alongside Columbine, if they even warrant a mention at all. At least with Columbine, KMFDM recieved considerable media coverage. The "KMFDM connection" to these later shootings seem to be the work of individuals creating a controversy where there is none. --buck (talk) 15:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Glad to see you chime in here, Buck. You've done alot of work on this article. I to looked at the Manson article and the one on WND. I cringed to use that citation, given the source.. Ok so my vote is to take it out or find some more neutral references at the least. You've made some good points. My thought is that any detail that hasn't had a considerable amount of news coverage and/or isn't disputed by the subject of the article doesn't really qualify as controversy. Wikipedia is not meant to be fully exhaustive in it's representation of details, regardless of how minute. Besides, it's pretty clear given the other sources that I have reviewed about the recent Youth With A Mission (YWAM) incident that the perp was in at least in some ways mimicing Eric Harris. Of course, I to am a fan and I hate seeing this stuff for the reasons that you mentioned, so it's hard for me to keep a neutral point of view... Vizzini101 (talk) 03:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the kind words Vizzini101. :) I think you hit the nail on the head; this article doesn't need to reference every minor blurb in which KMFDM's name comes up. Yeah, we do risk crossing the line into POV if we fail to include the negative with the positive, but your point is valid--it's hardly controversial if it receives little-to-no media mention. Likewise, it takes more than a couple people getting offended at something to make it controversial, at least significantly enough to place in an encyclopedia. I don't want to remove anything--"good" or "bad"--from this article as a means of slanting it towards a particular point of view, but since WND is not necessarily a reliable source (as I mentioned before, they didn't even spell "KMFDM" correctly) and we have yet to come up with another independent source that illustrates a possible "connection" between KMFDM's music and the church shootings, the section as-is may be a violation of NOR. So I'm going to go ahead an remove it, but archive the text here. --buck (talk) 16:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the following paragraph from the "Controversy" section for reasons mentioned above:

A shooting at a Arvada missionary training facility, the Youth With A Mission (YWAM) center, killed at least two people and wounded two others in Arvada, Colorado, United States. The gunman, Matthew J. Murray, went in to the building early Sunday morning December 9, 2007, and opened fire. Twelve hours later, Murry was killed by a security guard after opening fire and killing two at New Life Church in Colorado Springs. Murray had made serveral internet posts regarding the shootings. The last paragraph of one such posting quotes lyrics from the KMFDM song "Anarchy". [1]

We may decide to remove the paragraph about the Jokela school shootings for similar reasons. The problem is, however, the only source provided (here) is in Finnish so I can't verify it. Maybe someone can help? --buck (talk) 17:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MDFMK citation

In the 'Break-up, MDFMK, and reforming' section, it says there is citation needed. Well, I have the proof it happened in the form of a radio interview mp3. But the problem is, I have no idea how to go about sharing with Wikipedia.

...And does it matter that I don't own any copyrights? Googoie (talk) 22:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If you know who the interviewer is and/or it was performed as part of a named/published show, there is a template that can be used for citing interviews: Template:Cite interview. You don't need to upload the file itself, but if you can find a link to it on the internet that you can reference in the citation, that's all the better.
–207.180.187.8 (talk) 04:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)