Talk:Kitchen

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Good article Kitchen was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Contents

[edit] older entries

Wot, no cooker in the kitchen? Sorry, this is radically slanted, culturally.

Charles Matthews 11:37, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Here's a list of things I think could be written to improve them. I should be writing them, probably, and would do some research to add things myself.

  • "open fire" - The article simply says "Until the 18th century, open fire was the sole means of heating food for cooking," and I think this is too simplified. Maybe these facts belong in "Stove", but to my knowledge, "charcoal" was being used as early as 8th century in Japan and I think it had been in use much earlier somewhere. A fire from charcoal is easier to control than a fire from firewoods and lets out fewer sparks. In some parts of Africa and Mongolia, where wood is scarce, droppings of animals were used as a fuel. I think they some in Middle East did that too. In some tribes of Native Americans living near the North Pole, fat of animals were used as the fuel. Maybe there should be something about how people cooked before and after they took residence in a cave.
    Yes, all that definitely belongs into stove, especially the more "esoteric" things like using animal droppings for fuel. Also, please keep in mind that this article should be about a room used for cooking: that excludes e.g. in-depth treatment of stove techniques or outdoor cooking areas, and also of cooking techniques. Lupo 10:39, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • "water taps" - Obviously, water from a well or a river was used until recently, and in some places it's used even today. More should be written about how water got to a kitchen.
    You are right, of course, as far as less developed and especially rural areas are concerned. But that is a problem that you always face with these domestic developments: there is no clear cut between epochs, and many older styles continue to coexist with more modern technologies, because the latter are not uniformly adopted or installed everywhere at the same time. Lupo 10:39, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • That's not exactly what I meant. Until "Industiralization", there are nothing on water. How did ancient Greeks and Romans use water? One can only guess that they used a well by reading down to "Industrialization" but can't figure out if they shared a well or had a well in each house. A castle naturally had a well or a river close by to withstand a siege but was that in a kitchen or outside a kitchen? These details are missing. Revth 02:08, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
      I see. Added a sentence on that at the beginning of the history section (before "Early history"). Castles typically (but not always) had a well in the court, some also had one in the basement of the keep. But such info should go into the article on Castles. Lupo 15:22, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • "Galley" - It just goes to the type of ship called galley and doesn't have anything about a kitchen on a ship. I read about the galley on a modern (meaning American :)) aircraft carrier and I recall it was quite interesting.
    The Galley article has a brief mention of the "kitchen on a ship" sense at the bottom. If you'd like to improve that, go ahead, but it shouldn't reflect badly on this article. Lupo 10:39, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • Something about "kitchens in the space" - Cooking in 0G is a tricky business and how do they do that in a space station might be a fun information to include.
    Maybe, although I fail to see the fundamental difference from an airplane pantry. Mostly the astronauts are just heating completely prepared meals, aren't they? I don't think a thorough coverage of cooking in zero g would be a good idea in this article, though. That belongs somewhere into Cooking, which is about different cooking techniques. Lupo 10:39, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    Added a short paragraph on kitchens in space. Lupo 11:25, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • Brief and fair. Great. Revth 02:08, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • Some of titles for pargraphs seemed too general or theatrical, like "Rationalization" and "Free for all". Before technological innovations in the 20th century, kitchens were rational in their own ways and they were not exactly irrationally arranged. As for "Free for all", well, I can't figure out what "all" points to.
    "Rationalization" is a well-known name for that period. I could also have used the (trite) "Form follows function", which is a famous catchphrase of that architetural movement. Early kitchens were of course not intentionally "irrational". But they were often not planned up-front and by modern ergonomic standards, they were arranged in ways that were far from optimal, partly owing to the fact that they also often had to serve other purposes. I admit that "Technization" might need to be replaced by something better. "Free for all" is, AFAIK, an expression meaning "Everybody may do as he likes", the "all" meaning "everybody", which here clearly refers to "all the architects". I'd let that one stand, because it expresses nicely the fact that today technology has advanced to the point where the architecture of the kitchen is no longer governed by technological limitations. Lupo 10:39, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

These are some of suggestions and I will try to write out other things which are too numerous to list. Because I'm not sure how informations on other cultures would fit into this article, when I write about them, I will simply add them at the end of this article. After finished with writing, will try to find where and how they would fit in. Revth 00:46, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] more suggested improvements

Here are some more things:

  1. I'm very confused by the timeline in "early history". There are two sentences, one about monasteries and castles, that seem to say the same thing (that kitchens were in seperate buildings), but I can't tell if they're talking about the same time.
    I don't get it. I found one sentence beginning with "In castles and monasteries...". Where's the second sentence you mentioned? Lupo 10:39, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  2. "Early North American History" actually talks about Colonial American history. There were people in North America before there were European settlers.
    Yes, but did they have kitchens, i.e. rooms dedicated to cooking? I do not consider mobile structures like teepees to be rooms. You might notice that I did mention the Iroquois longhouses... Lupo 10:39, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  3. The text contrasts "ground floor" with "first floor". Where I'm from, the two terms mean the same thing. (I'm guessing the "first floor" means the first floor above the ground floor.  :)
    Reworded it using "ground floor" and "the floor above". Lupo 11:09, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  4. The text says "representation" many times, but I don't really understand what it means. Does it mean entertaining visitors?
    Oops. Reworded. My first language is showing through :-( Lupo 11:09, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think this article has lots of potential. DanKeshet 01:38, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  1. I think it would be great for a bit of history as to why it is named "kitchen". Afterall, Why is it not called the foodroom or the cookingroom? We have a bedroom, a front room, a bathroom, a laundry room, a living room and a dining room. The only room in the house without "room" is the kitchen. Why is that? Excerpt from dictionary.com "Middle English kichene, from Old English cycene, probably from Vulgar Latin *cocīna, from Late Latin coquīna, from feminine of Latin coquīnus, of cooking, from coquus, cook, from coquere, to cook; see pekw- in Indo-European roots"Gibbsman 20:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you add a section "etymology" somewhere and explain all this? Lupo 22:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "A kitchen is a room used for food preparation."

I think this should be "A kitchen is a room or a section of a house dedicated to use for food preparation." For example, a traditional Mongolian house only has a large single room and occupants live around the center where a stove is there and foods are prepared. Male occupants of this house rarely venture into this central section except to receive their servings or to prepare food themselves. The house is a mobile structure because Mongolian climate and lifestyle let one live easier by moving around. This wouldn't be a kitchen by defining that it must be a room but it clearly serves the function of a kitchen. A sushi restaurant usually prepares a sushi right infront of customers and except for washing dishes, which use soaps and detergents and often separated to prevent splashes, the place where sushi chef prepares has all functions of a kitchen. Few would consider that they are eating in a kitchen when they go because they make a distinction that places they are eating are a separate "room". By defining the kitchen like this, we wouldn't have to go into an argument over what a room must be and how different a tepee and a poor man's house with only a single room and why former would be lacking a kitchen while latter would have one. Revth 02:08, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Don't say "house" because there are kitchens in restaurants, churches, and offices, too. Furthermore, the kitchen may be just a corner of grass and a couple of bowls under a tree. "A kitchen is an area dedicated to food preparation" seems about as correctly inclusive as it can get. -- ke4roh 12:56, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)
I agree. A kitchen is not always a "room", and it is not always a place where food is prepared. In many modern homes the dining 'room' is connecte to the kitchen. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smartercookie (talk • contribs) 20:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
I disagree. A kitchen is in a house or similar relatively permanent structure, i.e. a building. Ok, in (sub-)tropical climates, many restaurants are actually in the open, under a light shelter in the form of a light roof held up by some wooden construction that probably nobody would call a "building". That type would maybe deserve mention in the "Other kitchen types" section.
A previous version of the article made mention of the use of the phrase "outdoor kitchen" to designate e.g. a corner of grass and a couple of bowls under a tree, as you called it, or the cooking area used when camping. This mention has recently been removed (not by me). Yes, military camps or the temporary settlements of Nomad s—be they teepees or yurts or gers or something else—may of course also have dedicated "kitchen tents" or kitchen areas within whatever is used as a shelter. But that is stretching the mainstream sense of what a kitchen is.
Churches with kitchens—have you seen one? Surely some churches may have a kitchen in an annex building where the priest lives, but I don't know of any church having a kitchen in the main sacral room. (Now monasteries with their refectories are a different thing...)
Offices with kitchens also are pretty rare, and where they have a kitchen, in what way would it differ from any odd apartment kitchen? Or were you thinking of a canteen kitchen?
I would be happy with "...a room or a section of a building..." (Revth's suggestion). Oh, and BTW, I think Sushi kitchens should also be mentioned under "Other kitchen types".
Lupo 13:20, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The church I attend has a special room with a refrigerator, oven, stove, sink, microwave oven, cabinets with limited food and ample plates and cups, serving utensils and such. In fact, most of the (all Protestant) churches I've seen in the United States have similar facilities typically in the same building as a gathering hall.
The office in which I work has a room we call the kitchen with a refrigerator, microwave oven, toaster oven, sink, and some dishes and food preparation supplies. All offices (all in the U.S.) in which I have worked (7 since 1992, the oldest built in 1965) have had at least a sink, refrigerator, and microwave oven in an area dedicated to food preparation. -- ke4roh 13:52, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)
And...? In what way do these kitchens differ from other kitchens? (Besides, I never claimed only homes had kitchens [as your edit comment seems to imply]—that'd be preposterous. But they'd better be inside a building for me to consider them kitchens.) But back to your church. This "gathering hall" is, I presume, therefore not only used for holy services but also other communal gatherings, festivities and maybe even an occasional "yard sale"? And the kitchen is a decently equipped average kitchen? Or is there something special about this kitchen that would qualify it as a distinct type of kitchen?
The goal of this article shouldn't be to enumerate any odd building that just happens to have a kitchen, but rather point out significantly different kitchen types in the "Other kitchen types" section. A railway dining car kitchen or a Sushi kitchen or a Space Shuttle "kitchen" is structurally different from what most people first think of when they hear "kitchen", namely their average domestic kitchen. (Incidentally, this is also the reason why the "history" section focusses on the domestic kitchen.) Therefore, they're mentioned in the "Other kitchen types" section. But that section doesn't just arbitrarily list different types of buildings that just happen to have some installations where food might be prepared.
Lupo 14:27, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Agreed. Revth had suggested, "A kitchen is a room or a section of a house...," and I got stuck on the "house" thing. As for outdoor kitchens, can a campsite have a kitchen with stove (or just fire), wash basin, and a few other basics? -- ke4roh 14:36, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)
I agree that "outdoor kitchen" meaning has got to go back in to make the link; I would place the gory details, however, in some camping-related article. I'll be bold and change the definition to "...room or section of a building..." and re-insert the camping stuff somewhere. Lupo 14:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I only added the outdoor kitchen, but didn't change the definition. Upon second (or third, or nth) thought I'm not happy anymore at all with adding "building" (or "house")—that would be too restrictive and exclude for instance aiplanes and ships. Lupo 15:10, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Okay :-) ... and wouldn't you know it, I thought of military kitchens in tents. They would likely have most of the amenities of the kitchens back home, only portable. Then there are trailers and tent cooking arrangements that show up at festivals in the U.S. (and probably many others).... Yes, enumerating the locations of kitchens can be exhausting! -- ke4roh 15:12, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Captions

I changed back one caption, on the illustration of the medieval kitchen. It did not have "all modern conveniences": no water supply (neither hot nor cold), no fridge, no electrical appliances, etc. The caption of the picture of the European smoke kitchen also needs improving, "...tended a fire and contended with somke..." reads clumsy because of the repetition in "tended" and "contended". Lupo 06:59, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for catching those things. As for the medieval kitchen, I figured it had the modern conveniences (for medieval times), though that may not be true, and the wording probably wasn't the clearest. The repetition in tended and contended was deliberate, though I'm certain another wording will suffice if you prefer. (In fact, I imagine you can write a much better caption for that picture than I. Where is it? When was it built? What's that rectangular hole in the wall? What else happened there? A good caption does two things 1) give some context or background for the picture and 2) draw the reader into the article.) I'll be glad to try my hand at another caption for the European smoke kitchen with some more background on the picture. -- ke4roh 10:25, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)
To answer your questions: the picture shows the kitchen of the "Althuus" (meaning "old house") on the Jerisberghof in Gurbrü near Kerzers, Canton of Berne, Switzerland. The Althuus was built in 1703 and used until 1836. The rectangular hole was constructed somewhen in the early 19th century to fire the tiled stove installed at that time in the living room on the other side of the wall. As such, the two images (the smoke kitchen and the drawing from 1485) should be inversed, but that causes layout problems. However, I wouldn't put all that info into the caption. The caption should not become a separate mini-article on the picture, such info should be on the image description page. Lupo 11:53, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the info! As you say, not much of that goes in the caption, but the added info in the description page can help others make use of the photo for other articles, too. I've tweaked the caption to get rid of "tended" and "contended" and add "Swiss." Thanks! -- ke4roh 12:46, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Early history

I've started to incorporate some info on developments outside Europe. For the time being, just about Japanese kitchens. I don't want to include everything from that article: that wouldn't make sense, as it is already (even though it is still growing rapidly) far more detailed. But I think it may well make sense to add some of that info, because I suspect we won't find dramatic differences for kitchens worldwide in that time period. Already, there are a few similarities between the development in Japan and in Europe... Lupo 13:15, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There are but be careful how you phrase them. You got mixed up on the difference between "kamado" and "irori" and it's fixed. Irori uses a smaller fire sometimes using charcoal to make it safer. A very poor people's home had only a kamado because you couldn't cook rice in a irori, not enough heat. Revth 02:31, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for catching this. Lupo 19:40, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

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[edit] " If a washing machine is present, washing and drying laundry is also done in the kitchen."

Not in most houses this isn't. Often there is a separete room called the 'laundry room' for the obvious reason. Personally, I know 1 person with a washine machine in their kitchen, and even it is in a connected closet. I believ it should be chang to:

"If a washine machine is present in a household, washing and drying laundry may be done in the kitchen, though many modern households now do their washing and drying laundry in a seperate room." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smartercookie (talk • contribs) 20:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

It is very uncommon for homes or restaurants to have clothes washing machines or laundry services being done in a kitchen. A kitchen is about preparing food. Not laundry. I think the above statement should be removed entirely.Testerer 00:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article review

This article is currently at Good Article Review. Teemu08 00:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kitchen appliances

Should there be a list of common kitchen appliances here, i.e. stove, oven, microwave, refrigerator?

  • I don't think so. Most of these appliances are mentioned in the text, so no list is necessary. Lupo 21:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, there should be something about Chinese or Indian cooking here, most of the historical discussion in the article seems to revolve around European cooking.

  • Chinese or Indian cooking should be somewhere over at Cuisine or an appropriate related article. This article here is about the kitchen as an architectural structure, a room. However, there should be something in this article about things specific to Chinese or Indian kitchens and their history. Lupo 21:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)