Talk:Kiritimati

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[edit] Description

Lorna Arnold's book Britain and the H-Bomb describes the island in 1956 (page 104) "Despite its sunshine, beaches, tropical warmth and palrge plantations of coconut palms, it was hardly an island of paradise - unlike the idyllic Penhyn. There was no fresh water (but torrential rain at times) and no source of food except migrant birds, fish, and coconuts; it was infested with evil smelling land-crabs and hosts of flies. Though not excessively hot, the humidity was very high. Most of island did not rise above 15 feet and the highest point was only 40 feet above sea level", etc. Is this accurate, I think the main page would be enhanced by this sort of detail.

I have added the link to Operation Grapple--ManInStone 12:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

88.111.88.48 21:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)==Google Maps Error?== I tried to see this island on google maps but google maps insist on calling it "Kiribati" with a b instead of m. Typo at Google?

Kiritimati is part of the island nation of Kiribati. Kiritimati is a large part of kiribati. I guess Kiritimati is the only significant piece of land according to google. -Indolences 22:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Something is wrong with this page

I can't see half the text on this page. Somebody edit it who has experience!

Same problem (with Safari and Firefox 2.0)…-Enzino 19:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christmas Island or Christmas Atoll?

I do not think so. I have lived on Christmas Island recently, and no one says Christmas Atoll for naming it. Of course, it is an atoll (and the biggest and oldest in the world). It is also bigger than the other Christmas Island (Indian Ocean) and many more people live there. The official name, put in the Kiribati constitution (12th July 1979) is Christmas Island (or Kiritimati). For the Gilbertese these two names are the same. For the same reason, Fanning and Washington are called islands and not atolls. And most of the people there, even when they speak in Gilbertese, call them Fanning Island or Washington Island (the Gilbertese names are not very comon, even official with English names). There are two Christmas Islands in the world and that is not a problem for Wikipedia. --Enzino 10:19, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)


I disagree. They are islands, but a type of island called an atoll. But if you want to not pass on anything of geography and just use "island" not much more I can say. Obviously if you think the English name is used more than the Kiribati name, then change that too. I'm no longer interested in trying to take Wikipedia anywhere. - Marshman 16:58, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)


I have not the power of changing names. And I totally agree with you : these are atoll islands, not simply islands. But nowhere you will see, as a name, Christmas Atoll. Its name is Christmas Island, or Kiritimati (rare). As written in the constitution. I cannot change a constitution. --Enzino 18:39, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC).

"Nowhere? It is known as Christmas Atoll in the geographic and scientific literature. And stop being so "aggressive" ;^)- Marshman 06:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Cool it. Even in the scientific literature it is often called "island" - that was the original name, and it kinda stuck. And as Enzino rightly remarked - Teraina may be "Washington Island" even to most Gilbertese (at least when they discuss it in English), but to all Gilbertese, the present island does in fact only have a single name that can be spelt in two different ways ;-) Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

poor abbreviation: what the heck is a 'ha'? ("Other islands are Motu Upua (> 19 ha), Ngaontetaake (27 ha), and Motu Tabu (3.5 ha)")

Hectar. That's why it's also there in acres, for the metrically-inhibited ;-) Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kiritimati, in fact often : Kirimati !

Please read and translate if you please the talk on the wikipedia in french about :

the fact that Kiritimati is often spelled KIRIMATI, even in official documents

the fact that Kiritimati is the largest atoll

the fact that Kiritimati is the oldest atoll

Some people dont want to use the name island for an atoll because they assume that most atoll are formed by many islands (not the case of Kiritimati) but I think they should use the term "motu" (a geographical term from polynesian languages meaning island) for the islets. So Christmas island is correct but Christmas atoll is correct too.

I am used to find the coordinates of the islands in the english page but for Kiritimati, they are lacking !

motunono

I do not know where "Kirimati" comes from (perhaps confusion with the country, Kiribati), perhaps a typographical error that has found a life of its own? A spelling error is a spelling error, and so-called" official documents are just as prone (if not more so) to such errors and therfore not a source of authority. If the official Kiribati government includes "Kirimati" as an alternate for Kiritimati, then that would have some weight, but not unspecified "official documents"
Kiritimati is not even close to the world's largest atols in dimensions, so this one is a misinterpretation of the fact that Kiritimati has more land area than any other atoll (largest land area of any atoll in the world).
Oldest? Maybe, but I'd need to see a geologiucal reason for such a statement. That was on the English article as well, but no one could back it up or provide a reason other than its large size (unrelated to atoll age).
You are correct about motu and they are incorrect about "island". By definition, an atoll is a type of island, and the motus are best described as "islets" in English. Another, similar English term is Key (Amer.) or Cay (Brit.). Christmas Atoll is Christmas Island; both ways are correct (I have no idea how this would compare in French). I prefer Christmas Atoll because I think all atolls should be named that way, and there is less confusion with Christmas Island in the Indian Ocean. But the term "island" applies to the same entity as "atoll" geographically and geologically; in common usage, many islets or motus on atolls are "named" islands, giving rise to a lot of confusion. - Marshman 21:42, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


Kirimati is just a mistake, made by people that confuses between Kiribati and Kiritimati.

On the other hand, I just confirm that this atoll is the biggest and (probably) the oldest in the world (personal communication at the Société des Océanistes).Enzino 18:06, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The Selected anniversaries (24 December) listing calls it the 'oldest atoll' and nowhere in the articles (Kiritimati or atoll) is there an explanation of what that means. Does that mean oldest discovery by Europeans or oldest by formation? Kember 23:16, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

In my first letter, I should not have used the word "fact" (due to my weak english)when pointing to the debate in french wiki about Kirimati beeing the largest and oldest atoll in the world because I dont backup those assertions. the first one depends on the way you mesure an atoll. for the second one, as I explain in the french discussion, I think it comes from the first belief, assuming that tallness means age, an idea that come from predarwinian conceptions of the atolls. MOTUNONO (stephane.jourdan@informatique.gov.pf tahiti)

[edit] "Provisional jets"?

From the article as it stands at the time of writing:

Previously (ended on April 26, 2004) a charter flight by Air Kiribati (done by Aloha Airlines) connected Christmas to Honolulu every week with a Boeing 737. Provisional jets shortly replaced it. Since October 2005, Fijian Air Pacific makes a weekly stop between Honolulu and Nadi in Fiji. A large and modern jetty, handling some cargo, was built by the Japanese.

This paragraph in particular could do with some tidying up of the English, but two things are stopping me from editing it:

  1. What does "by Air Kiribati (done by Aloha Airlines)" mean?
  2. What are "provisional jets"? This looks like a mistranslation, but I can't work out what of.

Loganberry (Talk) 23:30, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I had the same problem. I can tell you the answer to number 1: The Air Kiribati flights were operated under contract with Aloha Airlines. I have no idea what a "provisional jet" is, but sure I would not get on one! - Marshman 03:13, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Could it be that a provisional jet is one that delivers supplies or provisions? Kember 20:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Good guess, but seems unlikely. I was involved in just such a service to Kiritimati in the 1970s, and it was not a cost-effective way to deliver stuff. Flights require either lots of freight both ways and/or good passenger use both ways, and goverrnment subsidy for to air freight in "provisions" also unlikely. - Marshman 23:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC).

Don't worry. I do confirm that provisional jets is a mistranslation. Provisional airlines flights is perhaps better. I do confirm that Air Kiribati chartered one weekly flight to Aloha Airlines (very early on sunday morning). When the service of Aloha stopped, it was replaced from time to time by some flights on little jets, before a regular flight was reinstated last October by Air Pacific. On this flight, Air Kiribati charters 24 PAX. Marshman was (a long time ago) there: I also confirm that Air Kiribati not only charters for passengers but also for freight (and a lot of food). It is very expensive for the Government, but as most Shops and Utilities are governmental, and so few ships available, air freight is made (from HNL to Xmas) mainly by freight in provisions (and of pet fish from Xmas to HNL). And I have just been there to confirm all that (not in the seventies...Enzino 18:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Official" Name Change Date

I'm a little uncomfortable with the recent change by Pattersonc declaring an official name change in 1981 from Christmas Island/Atoll to Kiritimati. The name change is one between languages, so there is nothing official here about Kiribati deciding or declaring to call the Island Kiritimati instead of Christmas. I assume English speakers have alweays used Christmas and Gilbertese speakers have always used Kiritimati. Do not get me wrong, I favor using Kiritimati. But I require that if someone adds a "fact" about something "official" they need to cite a source. After all, the Mexican government or the CIA could each have their own "official" name for the place and even a date when it became officially whatever, but those are not necessarily facts we need to include in an English Wikipedia. The previous statement, that the atoll has more than one name is closer to the truth, so I'm reverting the addition, until a source can be provided and judged. I seem to recall that someone with knowledge here said that both names are "official" in the Kiribati constitution. If that is no longer or not true, lets correct that fact. - Marshman 02:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, from what you're writing it's not entirely clear you're aware, but the Gilbertese (i.e. Kiribati) name, Kiritimati is pronounced kirísmas, and, in fact, in Gilbertese, means "Christmas". They're one and the same word, just in different languages. I imagine the reason "Kiribati" has gained more traction among English speakers for the name of the country is because Kiribati does a nice job of occluding the fact that it actually means "Gilberts", when in fact, the country also includes Banaba, as well as the Phoenix and most of the Line Islands (where Kiritimati/Christmas happens to be located), while no such benefit can be shown for adopting the name Kiritimati over Christmas other than to avoid confusion with the Australian island.  :-\ Tomertalk 09:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Not aware? Actually I spoke Gilbertese (not real fluently) when I lived there in the 1980s. But Kiribati is the accepted name of the country. The Gilberts is the old English name of a specific island archipelago and no longer much used. - Marshman 05:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

In the Kiribati Constitution (12th July 1979, written in English), there are the "official" names of all the islands of the Republic: for this one, you have the choice between the gilbertese version (Kiritimati) or the English one (Christmas Island). For the Gilbertese people, it's nearly the same thing, as Kiritimati is only the rendition of Christmas, with nearly the same pronounciation and the same meaning, (mati is pronounced [mass]). Most of the people write it Xmas (shorter) and the form Kiritimati is not very popular.--Enzino 17:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
You are right, the two are close to the same thing, but not identical. It is "Kee-rees-mass" in Gilbertese, a little bit different from the English pronunciation. But your facts re: the constitution are what I was getting at in challanging Petersonc. Thanks - Marshman 05:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] poisoned environment?

Given that nuclear detonations were done on the island, why is it even inhabited? Shouldn't everything be poisoned due to the radioactive fallout? I find this a bit curious since the article didn't address this point.

I believe that Kiritimati may be an example of the fact that widely-held beliefs on the effects of long-term nuclear fallout have been greatly exaggerated. I hope that someone will do an article on this aspect of the Pacific nuclear testing in the future.

I know at least one bomb was detonated 18,000 ft. up and offshore of Christmas Island. I doubt that any bombs were actually detonated on the island itself. Residents of local islands, particularly Fanning Island, were even allowed to stay and witness the explosions from their community centers.
I do not know the authenticity, but this passage is interesting, "...Operation 'Hard Look' had carried out a full investigation...of radio-active contamination, but had found none. In 1975 a further examination of Christmas Island was undertaken...They reported that radioactivity levels were lower than those found in most American cities and that there was nothing on the island which could lead an investigator to deduce that there had ever been an atomic detonation in the vicinity." http://www.janeresture.com/christmas_bombs/index.htm LostCause 23:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, MoD/DoD studies have not really a good rep for factual accuracy in the scientific community, and neither have "1975 [...] examinations" by parties unspecified. Did that 1975 stuff ever undergo peer review? If not, no reviewed data seems to exist anywhere. The new NZ study suggests that things are somewhat different. I'd like to see the original data, but it's classified as far as I can tell. So the only hard facts we have is the Massey U "exectutive summary", which suggests that there was considerable contamination for some time. There does not, it seems, have been considerable soil or water contamination though; what bad stuff there was seems to have almost completely airborne.
In a nutshell, the "safety" standard of the early Cold War nuke tests would get you a life behind bars by today's standards. It is best to be highly wary of anything these guys claimed back then.
The janeresture site is usually good and pretty relable and thorough, but unfortunately not here. It has some factual errors about the Grapple tests, where the original government claim (that the first Kiritimati test was in May and that it was a success - neither is true) is repeated. That suggests that the health-related information is also from sources which have, shall I say, conflicts of interest in the matter. I have assembled all data I could find, as far as it looks reliable, and tried to refrain from an opinion. Most details are actually from Wikipedia itself; sources can be lifted from the relevant articles if anyone desires. It is telling however that we can give the yield of all nukes ever detonated around CI with far more precision that the health effects. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounciation

Can someone put an IPA guide to pronouncing Kiritimati? ArchonMeld (talk) 21:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Good call. This template might attract some helpful attention:
{{cleanup-IPA}}
BigBlueFish (talk) 23:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Never mind - just looked it up and pasted it from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Kiritimati BigBlueFish (talk) 23:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gilbertese only language?

I just {{fact}}ed the statement that Gilbertese is the only language spoken on Kiritimati. Really? Not just the main language? According to the article on Kiribati, English is also a recognised official language. I can reasonably well imagine there being a source backing up, for example, Gilbertese as the only native language on the island. But does the island exclude visitors? It all seems to be a bit of a bizarre statement for an atoll two of whose populated villages are named after European places. BigBlueFish (talk) 23:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Probably really simple - locals would of course use Gilbertese in their everyday business, but I guess few people there would be lost when you talk English. At least when it comes to basic tourism stuff. (I'd be tempted to think that a sentence like "Let's reel in some bonefish!" is well and widely understood by most people on Kiritimati;-) ) Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)