Talk:Kirisutan Holocaust/Votes for deletion

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Kirisutan Holocaust was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP. 9 votes to keep, 2 votes to move to new title and keep, 1 vote to delete. Postdlf 03:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Kirisutan Holocaust

I think this is false anti-Japanese propaganda. I find no evidence that any such "holocaust" occurred; further, the editor's other contributions are all intensely pro-Korean anti-Japanese POV. --jpgordon {gab} 15:31, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • Keep. Rename, perhaps, to "Kirishtan Holocaust", which seems to be the better-known name of the incident. JPG, it irks me that you asked my advice on what to do about this article and then ignored it when I replied that my research indicated some substantiation of the basic facts. If it's a "blood libel", as I pointed out, it's one that fooled the University of Redlands. Please read Wikipedia:Assume good faith before you submit another VfD based principally on the fact that you don't trust the editor. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC) (P.S. Oh, and it looks like the New York Times also agrees that the events you can "find no evidence" for happened -- and yes, I did check to find out if this was actually an article published in the NYT rather than a fake article assembled by a website determined on "blood libel".)
I'm sorry you're irked; I saw no response -- I guess that's why conversations here tend to happen in the disjointed "your talk page, my talk page" fashion. So I erred. That's why we vote on deletion -- because mistakes happen. --jpgordon {gab} 17:14, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I don't know anything about the actual events referred to, but the page appears to have a kernel of legitimacy. If it does, it would need a substantial rewrite. I am not sure about using the term "Holocaust" since most people associate that term with World War II and the Jewish (and gypsy, etc.) extermination. Mona-Lynn 20:40, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would agree; it clearly does need substantial rewriting. I suspect it may be much better known under some other name than either "Kirisutan Holocaust" or "Kirishtan Holocaust", and if we knew it, we'd have access to more than the one POV on the events; unfortunately, I haven't found many clues what that name would be. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:07, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Found this: http://www.baobab.or.jp/~stranger/mypage/chrinjap.htm Looks like a total dead about 3,000 and although people emotionally affected by this event appear to refer to it as the Kirishtan Holocaust, whether it's an unbiased or appropriate name would have to be investigated. Perhaps someone could move some of this discussion to the page's talk page once it's decided the article should be kept. Mona-Lynn 04:47, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This came to me in an e-mail from my Japanophile friend: "I do know a bit about the topic. I actually wrote a paper on the 'hidden Christians' that existed underground for a couple of centuries after the events spoken of. I don't know about the person's stats. I do know that a pretty substantial number of people were killed but the reasons and numbers are debatable. The greatest number were killed after the Chrisitan Daimyo on the Kyushu staged a rebellion. Lots and lots of people were killed but were they killed because they were Christians or because they were rebels?" Mona-Lynn 22:55, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, clean up. according to some dusty manuscripts in my possession I studied some Japanese history at college, and events along the lines described here did happen. The article Tokugawa Iemitsu contains a reference, no doubt there's more info somewhere. Ianb 20:53, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Needs work, yes, but this is a definite KEEP. GRider 01:13, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, maybe rename to Tokugawa persecution of Christians or somesuch, clean up and expand. —No-One Jones (m) 18:23, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep or move to Tokugawa persecution of Christians. Not much of a holocaust, if it took 250 years and killed so few people. Hopefully rewrite so as not to be so one-sided. --Improv 16:04, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I've seen the figure of 3000 people killed and I've seen the figure of one million people killed. I don't know which is correct. Frankly, I'd be more inclined to believe the latter figure, because if there were only 3000 Christians to kill they probably wouldn't have been perceived as a threat to begin with, and if there were enough Christians to pose a threat and in 250 years they only killed 3000 of them, it seems damned inefficient. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:56, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, clean up, and please be a bit more responsible about what you nominate for deletion in the future. —siroχo 22:35, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)
  • I believe Keep and move to Tokugawa persecution of Christians is the best choice. While the number of death is no determinant for a holocaust, even when it had been against a religion, Christian at that time had options of leaving Japan or converting back to other faiths. Now, the figure of a million is way over mark, the population of Edo period was only about 25 to 35 milion and several famines of that time were on the order of ten thousands. For any killing in order of a million, we would and should be seeing hundreds of ghost towns in Kyushu. That's clearly is not the case. [This seems to be ignoring the most basic fact, that this Chirstian movement was largely limited to Kyushu and Keikyo and Catholicism were two different faiths. Keikyo faith was so Chinanized that it fused and disappeared quite quickly perceived as nothing more than a varient of Buddhism. What is written here, is nothing more than a cult teaching. Revth 05:42, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Move to Tokugawa persecution of Christians [[User:Dmn|Dmn / Դմն ]] 19:53, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep Tokugawa Persecution of Christians does not make sense for these persecution happend during Toyotomi Hideyoshi's period as well. It is a holocaust because the Japanese government did Christian hunting (Kirishtan Gari) which is equivalent to Nazi persecution of the Jews. Japanese Catholics did not concentrate on Kyushu but throughout Japan. 80% of Japanese were peasants and many did convert to Catholicism. Please do not delete this for this is an accurate even that happened in Japan and it is in Japanese textbook as well. Japanese government does admit its atrocity. Study Japanese history accurately before nominating this for deletion. It is an insult.
  • Overhwelming Keep. This should have never been VfD'd in the first place. Remove it already. Radman1 16:45, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.