Talk:Kinnaur district

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Some part of this article is a copy from http://hpkinnaur.nic.in/culture.htm for example wrap up a woolen shawl-like garment called Dohru is a perfect match for a phrase is it possible to get a bit of a clarification of this so that we know that there isn't a copyvio. E.g. how this has been done under fair use. Mozzerati 18:57, 2004 Nov 1 (UTC)

Which edit(s) added the copyvio? I'd like to help untangle it, but you seem to have done some work already. JesseW 01:27, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've made a possible fixed version at the temp page. Please look at it and see if it works. JesseW 01:56, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Where? , user talk. Mozzerati, I explain that only certain sentences ome from there, but not all. If you are bloody not happy about it, then I expect a rewrite with exactly the same content but with changes in sentence orientation. thanks.

The new page version is: Kinnaur/Temp. I removed these three paragraphs, simply from lack of time(as those seemed to be the one's referred to by Mozzerati); if only a few sentances are copied verbatim, please feel free to add back in all the ones that wern't, and rephrase the few that were. Thanks for responding! (BTW, you might consider sigining your comments on Talk pages. It makes it easier to identify who's speaking. JesseW 08:30, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay, we have to be much more careful. I looked through your rewritten article and here are some phrases and sources

"who do not shave their heads and marry"

http://library.thinkquest.org/10131/kinnaur_buddhism.html

"Khayarcha is a mat used for sitting purposes, which is made of goats hair" "Women wrap up a woolen shawl like garment called dohru"

"households have some wooden chest for keeping grain and dried fruits." "The first wrap of dohru is on the back with embridered border displayed throughout its length up to the heels"

http://hpkinnaur.nic.in/culture.htm Mozzerati 22:16, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

I have been thinking about this. Without comment from the original authors, I have no ability to tell which stuff has not been copied. I know that some has and that the copying goes beyond what I have undersood is okay for fair use. I will put the article back to the last revision which has no known copied text (12:56, 2004 Oct 27 Ajar) then I will add back the picture link. After that, if any of the old editors can tell me that the material they put in is original, I will do the work to restore it. I'd just like to say that I sympathise with the original editors. The laws of copyright are extremely unclear and vary from place to place. Even after a discussion with a professional publisher we were unable to agree exactly what was allowed and what wasn't; and that's just in the country where I come from. This makes it very difficult for a normal person to be know what is allowed.

The real reason to be careful is that problems with one copyright violation could damage the whole of wikipedia, especially if it gets to be published in book form. Mozzerati 19:43, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)

I understand your sympathy. The rule I work from is simply that I cannot copy any phrases longer than 2 words, unless there is no other way to express the idea(i.e. proper nouns, or other limited expressions). That's probably extreme, but it works for me. Why don't we just do that? Rephrase all the content that is suspect and we should be clear. That seems like it would take less time than checking every sentance... Please let me know what you think, and if you think it's a good idea, I'll help. JesseW 09:38, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

User:Mozzerati left the below comment at User talk:Infrogmation:

Your new version of Kinnaur seemed to me to possible still be a copyvio. Please see the talk page for the discussion so far and the checking done. Are you happy that it's okay?? Your comments to the talk page would be appreciated.

It was not really "my" version. As per procedure, after the old article was listed for time at Wikipedia:Copyright problems with no challenge, the old version was deleted. I replaced it with the Temp page, which had a note from User:JesseW which suggested the problem was taken care of. If the new version violates a copyright as well, I suppose it needs to be relisted on WP:CP, and let's see if we can create a proper original fresh version. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 15:44, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I just checked the last change (by User:Chan Han Xiang) with the author and e confirmed e wrote it, so that's fine. JesseW 06:30, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] To Mr Tan (aka Chan Han Xiang)

As a reminder, here are some of the comments you made on the Zanskar article (reproduced here in your very own words):

  • it seems that Zanskar will be doomed as a poor quality article. So how I'm going to cleanup? It will really needs massive re-working in that case
  • I will slate clean and restart with my version, adding content as much as possible from Mounmine, because of bad English and it will be very difficult to cleanup, except for certain irrelavant parts, which I must and cannot include. His case, however, is a form of extreme case
  • Just look at the etymology section; does anybody ever write such "rubbish" in terms of sentence structure and gramatical error?


Now, even if they were justified, these are really not nice comments to make about anything or anybody. However, out of curiosity and since you are so persuated of your own superiority in all things literary, I decided to take a look at your "major" contributions in the hope of maybe learning something from you. In this respect, I was rather dissapointed but it was worth a good laugh. Reproduced below are some real nuggets to be found in your Kinnaur article:

  • "Woolen clothes is worn contributing to its cold weather" I do not know how wearing any kind of clothes, be they woolen or not, can contribute to the weather. Should you be able to document this, it would certainly be a major break-through in climatology.
  • "These three religions have undergone religious infusion" This sentence is mysterious, but again, if you can demonstrate that religions can undergo infusion, be it religious or not, you would also make a breakthrough in theology.
  • "the Hindu and Buddhist religions interwine together over the centuries". Well, this is a practice they should definitively put on hold, unless you meant intertwined? but in this case, intertwine together is kind of redundent.
  • "the upper areas of the valleys fall mainly under the rain shadow area""". This sentence is very poetic, but what is it supposed to mean exactly?


Your articles are also full of typos (to be charitable). Here are the most obvious one lifted again verbatim form your Kinnaur article:

  • "posses" should be possess. Posse is a word and posses is its plural, but it has a meaning that does not exactly fit into your sentences. In the same spirit, it should be possessed and possessing
  • "descandants" should be descendants
  • "embridered" should be embroided
  • "maybe worn" should be may be worn
  • "iving" should be living
  • "interwined" as already mentioned should be intertwined


I have already mentioned before that I do not consider myself to be an authority in english grammar (as opposed to you), however I have the sneaking suspicion that the sentences reproduced below do not exactely match the high standards you claim promoting:

  • "Strains of racial mixing is the greatest in Middle Kinnaur, however.". ???
  • "They also claim descent to the Rajput" one claims descent from not to
  • "Of late, Tibetan refugees from Tibet has settled in parts of the district as well." Aside from the fact that it should be obvious that Tibetan refugees are from Tibet, they have settled not has
  • "Pakpa, a skin of made out of animal skin" One of the of shouln't be there. Guess which one?
  • "is accompanied with a white colour velvet band". Correct is: to be accompanied by something
  • "The first wrap of Dohru is based on the back" ???
  • "Folk Hindu gods are also worshipped. This necessarily include the Durga, where it is locally known as Chandi, Narayan, Vishnu, and many other folk Hindu-Animist gods.". Woodstock in the Himalaya? and besides, speaking of Durga, one does not say "the Durga" and the qualifier for a God is certainly not "it"
  • "They are generally divided into two groups, the celibate Gyolang, who shave their heads, and the Durpu, who do not shave their heads and marry, and there are no restrictions in their marriage." What do you mean no restrictions in their marriage?
  • "Mount Kailash is the most sacred peak by most Kinners" probably revered by most...
  • "Legendary and mythlogical accounts spreaded by the word from the mouth is also heard among the local folks." Very strange sentence.


This is just the tip of the iceberg and I could go on for hours...


Also, you have obviously lifted most of your text from the following website: [http://hpkinnaur.nic.in/] and just worsened it. Your "Tourism"" section reads as an advertisement from the Himachal Pradesh Tourism Office, not like an entry in an encyclopedia. In the article you also constantly introduce very very obscure words that you fail to define or link with other Wikipedia articles.


And then there are the factual errors. For instance, the "Kinnaur Kailash" has nothing to do with the "Mount Kailash", therefore linking the one with the other is not only completely misleading but plainly wrong.


I hope that you now start to understand why we have reverted your edits on Zanskar so many times. Should that not be the case, read again carefully the comments you received by User:Mel Etitis and User:Nichalp.


Oh yes, before I forget, some times ago you posted the following message on my page:

"I want you to hold a discussion on May 10 or 11 about Zanskar. Stay online in wikipedia between those days. Thanks.

Tan 23:32, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)"


Do you even realise how extremely impolitely this sentance of yours is formulated.? It comes across as an extremely rude order. A polite request could have been:

I would like to hold a discussion on May 10 or 11 about Zanskar. Would it be possible for you to be online on these two days?

Do you see the difference?

Moumine 00:09, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] RfC

Editors contributing to this article might be interested in leaving their views at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mr Tan. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:50, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Circles?

What is meant by an administative circle? (Oh, and are oranges really grown in Kinnaur? It doesn't seem likely given everything else that's said about the climate and vegetation.) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:16, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I've heard of crop circles and concentric circles. Maybe an administrative circle is what you get when you position the officials in circle formation (like some of those class pics). :) I think we should take out the oranges part in the meantime, bec. it's dubious. JMBell° 09:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, it is wrong, it is the state of Himachal Pradesh which has 12 districts, Kinnaur being one of those twelve [[1]]. Kinnaur itself has three sub-divisons (Pooh,Kalpa and Nichar) as well as 5 Tehsils (God Wikipedia knows what those are) [[2]]. These two official sites from the governement of Himachal Pradesh provide enough facts to streighten-up the article. Oh, and I have never seen oranges growing in this region. Apples and Apricots maybe, but oranges??? Moumine 12:29, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, well, good. This Tan person doesn't know what he's doing, really. He should just stick to Chinese. Anyway, why don't we incorporate these newly found facts and then protect the article, before Tan shows up again and "corrects" all of our "errors"? Truly, truly, I say to you, he knowest not what he hath done. He knowest nothing at all. (Forgive the faulty Old English) - JMBell° 13:11, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Go tell the Wikipedians, you who pass by. That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.Moumine 14:25, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Roads

Just to explain that "metalled roads" is the English term; in the context I took the text to mean that there were nothing but mud tracks. The phrase comes from "road metal", where "metal" is used to mean any product of mines (so crushed rock, etc.). For various examples of its use: [3], [4], [5]. We don't use the term "tarred roads" Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:21, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


As a matter of fact, the great majority of the roads in this region are in fact tarred (or asphalted, whatever), although it can be said that because of the harsh climate the asphalt pretty quickly degrades, so that the once "tarred roads" turn into "metalled roads" so maybe we should just drop the "metalled-tarred-asphalted" and simply use "roads"? Moumine 23:42, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I've changed it to reflect this. (The term "asphalted" might be U.S., I don't know.) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
US term is "asphalt roads." The etymology of "metalled roads" is quite interesting, if I may say so. JMBell° 09:43, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I think that, given everything that Mourmine has said above, the phrase "reliably-surfaced" is most accurate and informative ("practicable" doesn't quite make sense here, but would anyway be a bit vague).

As for "metalled roads" — I've used the phrase all my life, and this is the first time I've really thought about it, and looked up its etymology. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:50, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, between checking the history and editing the artciel, someone had snuck in with "well-surfaced". I'm again inclined to stick with "reliably"; Mourmine says that the roads start out well-surfaced, but can quickly deteriorate, so it's the reliability that seems to be the problem. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:53, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I've just checked the history. JM, did you really mean that you thought that "practicable" doesn't exist, or was that just shorthand in the edit summary? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:04, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


Of course "practicable" does exist, just make a google search for "practicable roads". Admittedly, it is not as fitting as the german "befahrbare Strassen" (litt. drivable roads) but if I am not entirely mistaken, "practicable road" is the term used on US maps (I am afraid, I don't have one right now to check). Anyway, this entire discussion about the right expression to be used to describe Kinnauri roads is somewhat beside the point given the state of this article. (but I guess we all just had some fun correcting each other and I have to admit that I have learned something with Mels etymological dissertation on the origin of the word "metalled roads")Moumine 23:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, the french expression would be "routes carrossables" (litt. "coachable roads" carrosse=coach). If "practicable" is not the right word, I am sure you anglo-saxons can come up with the right term (after all english is just a hodge-podge of french and Germanic no?)Moumine 23:58, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Why "just"? Being a mixture of French and German does us quite well — we can use the French words when we're being sopisticated and the German words when we're being everyday. Two vocabularies for the price of one. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I got confused and thought Moumine had put "practical roads." Now, I didn't think that would fit, and reliably-surfaced sounded either too long or too awkward (can't remember which), I replaced it with "well-surfaced," and wrote (or thought I wrote) "reliably-surfaced too awkward, practically nonexistent" in the summary. "Maneuverable" would be the rough translation of "befahrbar", but it doesn't seem to fit. Maneuverable roads in a place where there are no cars? But again, that's exactly what the article states, so it could fit. I'm just not sure of its usage. "Practicable road" would be ok; my dictionary (a 1988 Webster's Deluxe Ed. that's already falling apart) tells me that practicable means "adj. (etymology follows but cut by me, hehe) 1: that can be done or put into practice; feasible [a practicable plan ] 2: that can be used; usable; useful [a practicable tool ]. I guess this would work, or "usable", no? Anyway, that's the nice thing about English. You get 3 vocabs in 1: French, Anglo-Saxon, and Latin. Of course, there are many other languages that English borrowed from, but those are the largest components. -JMBell° 09:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistencies

The opening paragraph states that Kinnaur is divided into three administrative areas - Pooh, Kalpa, and Nichar. However, further down, there are still references to Upper, Middle, and Lower Kinnaur. This could possibly confuse the reader. Should we change all Upper, Middle, and Lower Kinnaurs to Poohs, Kalpas, and Nichars, or should we place a small "translation" beside Pooh, Kalpa, and Nichar? - JMBell° 09:57, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

"Upper, Middle, and Lower Kinnaur" are geographical descriptions (an alternative could be northern, central and southern). The official Web-site of the state of Himachal Pradesh mentions "Pooh, Eeyore, and Pigglet" as sub-divisions [http://hpkinnaur.nic.in/fact_file_1.htm] err, no sorry, "Pooh, Kalpa, and Nichar", that's it!, but also makes use of "Upper, Middle and Central Kinaur" depending on the context Moumine 20:43, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyediting

Greetings all.

I came to this article from the Community Portal, I'm a roaming copyeditor and I hopefully have made some decent contributions to the article. I removed the copyediting tag and am removing this article from the listing of articles needing copyediting, so I hope that is ok with everyone. If you feel the article still needs attention, let me know and I will try to help. Best regards, EvilPhoenix 05:55, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tourism

Why did you remove Tourists can visit the towns of Pooh, Reckong Peo Kalpa and Sangla, where they can see orchards of fruits and the exquisite designs of the local temples.

Anyway, I will be adding more content on top of that.


Tan 20:06, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Aside from the poor English, it lacks much genuine content, except for the value judgement about the exquisiteness of the temples. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:34, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

You've just reverted my improvements of the English; why? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:36, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


Where is your "improvements"? Show me then. If I really did, I apologise.

Then, try to improve it if you can (I"ll do my part as well)

Tan 21:13, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

What do you classify as "improvement," Tan? The improvements are very clear, no need to point them out. JMBell° 13:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)