Talk:Kingdom of the Two Sicilies

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Contents

[edit] Italy = Sicily?

The Two Sicilies refer to the Sicily Island and southern Italian mainland? --Menchi 08:29, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Precisely. -- Jmabel 01:20, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
Doesn't that mean mainland Italy was also called Sicily? Was that ever true? --Menchi 00:39, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Various sources indicate that after the War of the Vespers, the southern mainland was known as Sicily on this side of Cape Faro, in Italian (see Italian wiki) Regno di Sicilia di qua dal Faro (which Google renders as "Kingdom of Sicily from here to the Beacon", not sure if Italians would take it that literally). I'll modify the article accordingly. --Dhartung | Talk 06:17, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Ah...that makes a lot of sense... Thanks. --Menchi 19:05, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] That foreigner Garibaldi

"…was overthrown by an insurrection led by Garibaldi and sponsored by the kingdom of Sardinia, which absorbed the Bourbons' domains…" has been altered (without comment) by Carmine Colacino to "…was overthrown by a foreign invasion led by Garibaldi and sponsored by the kingdom of Sardinia, which annexed the Bourbons' domains…". The question of which is more appropriate would seem to turn on (1) whether Garibaldi should be seen as foreign (he wasn't from the Kingdom, but he was from within Italy) and (2) whether there was a significant internal insurrection beyond the actions of Garibaldi's mostly northern Italian army. I don't think either of these is a clear-cut question; I was wondering if anyone can suggest a more neutral wording that splits the difference. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:40, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History of Italy

Dear all,

in the last years many new documents have been brought to the attention by historians, that tell the real history of the State of the Two Sicilies and more in general the birth of the modern State of Italy, in a completely different way than we actually know.

So far, we are used to study about heroes like Garibaldi, about "king gentleman" like Vittorio Emanuele Savoia, about great politicians like the count Camillo Benso of Cavour; we are used to read about the deep poverty and ignorance of the southern italian people, the brutal kingdom of the kings of Naples; the criminals, called "briganti", that the italian troops had to fight in the southern provinces after the Unity.

All this is bullshit! It is an insult against the actual southern italian people. It is an insult against intelligence. It is an insult against the millions of people, that AFTER the unification started to emigrate from Southern Italy, while many people from Northern italian States already emigrated BEFORE the Unity. It is an insult against all those partisans that gave their life to uselessly defend their nation, conquered by a foreign State.

Tens (hundreds) of documents are already available now, that tell about the decent socioeconomic situation of the Two Sicilies, and give hints about the real reasons why and how that unjust and rude annexion happened, that still brings negative consequences to actual socioeconomic italian life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wousfan (talk • contribs) 8 Sept 2005

  • Can you please be more precise in your citation? I'm not saying you are either right or wrong, but invoking "many new documents" and "tens (hundreds) of documents" with no specifics is not going to convince anyone who does not already agree with you. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:56, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
  • After Wousfan's edits, the article is down to little more than a stub. Since the removed material was rather POV and uncited, I am leaving it alone. I would suggest that, given that this is apparently an area of controversy, whoever adds material back to this article, especially material praising or criticizing the government and administration of the Kingdom, should be careful to cite sources. Otherwise, we will clearly have nothing but an edit war. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:02, 9 October 2005 (UTC)


I'm glad that Jmabel didn't just restore the previous version, but admitted the controversy over this topic. I know (and i'm sorry) that i was vague over the documentation that proves the falsehoods included in the paragraphs, that i cut. I'll need some time to write down a new version to submit to Wikipedia. For the moment, please have a look at the two new links (in italian, and unfortunately still with a very little session in english) that provide many information about the history of the Two Sicilies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wousfan (talk • contribs) 10 Oct 2005

  • This is indeed a very controversial area, and it is a miracle that so much restraint has been shown to date. Congratulations to all who have been involved in this article. I have just added two small points. Firstly, the Kingdom of Sicily had existed for precisedly 152 years before the Sicilian Vespers (and not merely one century). Secondly, I have been wanting to add a small piece about one of Sicily's many revolutions that occurred between 1816 and unification - the revolution of independence of 1848. It existed as an independent state for 16 months, and although admittedly it is a short period, it nevertheless warrants an article in its own right - so I would hope that people will leave the red link there for at least a day to enable me to get back to it. Furthermore, it is a strong indicator of the mood of the Sicilian people just prior to Garibaldi's boy's own adventure in 1860. If Garibaldi's boy scouts did get any support from the Sicilian people (and they clearly must have, or they would never have succeeded), it is only because they (the Sicilians) were wishing to become an independent state, and took the oppurtunity that Garibaldi provided them in overthrowing the Bourbons (yet again). Sounds far fetched? - then those that are interested should research the events leading to the many Sicilians that were killed between 1861 and 1866 revolting against what was in essence a foreign occupation. I don't think that is emotive language - it's a statement of fact, simply look at the circumstances of the protaganists in the year 1860 - the Kingdom of Sardinia was a foreign occupier. But at this stage, I am happy to stay out of that argument, I only wish to write about the events of 1848. Grazzî e salutamu. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 10:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC) ps I do have sources, stacks of them, I have a private collection of all things Sicilian that runs into the hundreds of volumes.

[edit] Unreadable

The section Two Sicilies#Heads of the Royal House of the Two Sicilies, 1861-present is nearly unreadable. I did some minimal copy edits; frankly, I don't care enough about claimants to defunct royal titles to take the time it would require to sort out the prose, but I assume that someone else does: please see if you can make this comprehensible. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:49, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I wrote a short, fairly comprehensible summary a little while ago, which seems to have been replaced by a long, detailed, almost incomprehensible version. It's also arguably POV in the direction of the senior line. I don't want to just revert, because there seems to be fairly useful stuff, but that might be the best way to do it. (To see the change, take a look at the paragraph about the dispute in the last version edited by me in the history.) john k 04:32, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Certainly yours is clearer; I just can't work out if there is anything in the other worth salvaging. I would not complain about simply reverting to your version, but assuming that there is accurate information in the other, I'd much rather just see it cleaned up and NPOV'd. - Jmabel | Talk 00:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I've the same issue. It seems like there might be some useful info in there, it's just a mess... john k 03:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Sicily, Two Sicilies and Italy

I'm glad that the reason why some months ago I deleted the previous "official" history of Two Sicilies, that was reduced to "poverty, ignorance and brutality", until Garibaldi and the unification with the rest of the peninsula brought freedom and progress, is becoming evident. The interpretation of the facts is still controversial: from the "neapolitan" side the perception of the Bourbon period is more positive than from the "sicilian" side. But both sides agree on the perception that the "italian period", after the annexion, is rather negative. Then, it is not acceptable that several centuries of national identity, culture and history of the Two Sicilies are erased and re-written by the "winners".wousfan 6 April 2006 (UTC)

You still need to add something about the "annexation", it looks like an article from 1860 at this point. I might think that the kingdom still exists if I did not know about the country Italy. 203.218.37.8 02:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calabria or Castro?

I have no idea whether this edit is right or wrong. It was anonymous, uncited, and gave no summary. - Jmabel | Talk 02:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be correct per here. I'm not 100% sure but it seems that the Castro title is held by the father and the Calabria title by the son and heir, roughly how Charles is the Prince of Wales. The whole section is overlong and complicated, though. --Dhartung | Talk 04:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Giovanni?

I know nothing about these various claimants to a defunct throne, but someone removed "HRH Prince Giovanni of the Two Sicilies (born 1933, died 2000)". I have no idea if this was vandalism or the removal of vandalism. Will someone with a clue please take a look? - Jmabel | Talk 06:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It's neither. Prince Jean (as he was normally called) was indeed in line, and in that place. however, the list supposedly details the current "line of succession," and Prince Jean is, in fact, dead. I'll add that the list at present seems rather odd. Why is "Prince Francesco's" son, Prince Antoine, not included, but the supposed "Duke of Calabria" included? Prince Carlo is the son of a minor French noblewoman, while the younger Prince Antoine is the son of a Countess of Schönborn, which is certainly not a misalliance. Prince Gaetano, the son of a princess of Orleans, was also for some reason excluded, in spite of his still being alive. I've added both back in, and changed the names so as not to give Italian names to members of the family who aren't known by such names normally in English. john k 17:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone was editing using an outdated source, that's all. Prince Antoine was only born in 2003. Prince Gaetano has been dead more than 20 years, although I notice that many genealogical sources (including Paul Theroff's Online Gotha and the 1991 Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels don't mention it, maybe because he died in Zimbabwe). According to the Castro branch's website, Gaetano died in Harare on 27 December 1984. As for their marriages, while it is true that Antoine is the son of an equal marriage and Carlo de Bourbon, the Castro Duke of Calabria, is only arguably so, that is not the relevant criterion for this dynasty. Two Sicilies law only required prior, written consent of the Sovereign for dynastic marriage. Strictly speaking, Ferdinand Castro's marriage to Chantal de Chevron-Villette was unequal when contracted in 1949, but she was subsequently granted the style of "Highness", and eventually recognized as equal -- if only when her own husband became Head of House in 1973. Little Prince Antoine is recognized as the family's youngest dynastic member by both Sicilian pretenders, but his parents' marriage was not authorized in advance by either pretender, because the child's grandfather, Prince Antoine -- Head of the so-called Gabriele branch -- is alienated from both and did not invite either of them to his son's wedding in Geneva in 2000. Historically, the Gabrieles support the Castro branch's claim, but rebelled when Carlo Calabria married Camilla Crociani in 1998. They are being courted assiduously by the Spanish branch's adherents, who'd like a reconciliation -- and an alternative to Pedro Calabria's legitimated son. Lethiere 05:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The genealogy can be checked out, btw, at Paul Theroff's Internet Gotha. Generally, the normal sized bolded texts indicates dynasts of that family, the small bolded text indicates morganatic or legitimized by subsequent marriage or, occasionally, purely illegitimate lines, and the plain text indicates cognatic lines that aren't represented on other pages. john k 17:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Very weak article

This article goes on and on about the putative heirs to a defunct royal title, but has almost nothing about the years in which this was an actual kingdom, with subjects and domestic and foreign policies, a topic that a reader could reasonably expect it to engage. - Jmabel | Talk 07:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. There are articles on the 2 claimants to the defunct throne (linked from this article)and an article on the succession to that throne. This article needs to discuss the Two Scilies as an actual historic state, not the dispute over the empty title.

BernardAbbotLane 07:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


I also agree!!! This article is useless as it is now. My revision of one year ago, was in the direction of HIGHLIGHTING the hidden and manipulated history or the ancient State, and the criminal annexion by Garibaldi and by the Kingdom of Piedmont. The succession on the throne of Naples and Palermo is not completely meaningless, but definitely less important... Wousfan 19:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking about putting all the stuff about the 1960 - present dispute in Bourbon-Two Sicilies Head of House dispute... would this be a suitable title? I also think House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies needs its own article as it does on other languages. - Gennarous (talk) 11:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] language

the official language was sure Italian - a lot of dialects were also spoken not only Sicilian and Neapolitan--Massimo Macconi 20:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Two Sicilies is a regional name, it wouldn't be used as a synonym of "Kingdom of Two Sicilies"--Wento (talk) 13:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I reverted the page location to Two Sicilies. If this page is moved to a location utilizing kingdom, it should be Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. Charles 18:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
It probably should be moved (and Charles is quite right whither). Two Sicilies is meaningless outside the context of the Kingdom. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Septentrionalis you're wrong. Two Sicilies is a historical synonym of it:Mezzogiorno d'Italia or it:Meridione (South). See also the italian adjective duosiciliano (<Due Sicilie/Two Sicilies) [1]. It's also cited in the official web-pages of Naples (search "duosiciliano" with your browser). --Wento (talk) 20:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I've changed the order of redirect. I hope it isn't a wrong way of editing. Thanks --Wento (talk) 20:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice also that Two Sicilies is not a political party as the page Two Sicilies (political party) suggestes. I guess it would be a secessionist movement without political representation. Bye --Wento (talk) 20:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it is the wrong way of editing. Never make a copy and paste move as you did when moving this page, it destroys the edit history. Charles 21:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Wento that the article on the kingdom (this one) should be titled at Kingdom of Two Sicilies. Before the official kingdom existed Two Sicilies was just a geographical description to describe mainland Kingdom of Naples and island Kingdom of Sicily even before they were united, as thus the geographical description needs its own article, maybe Two Sicilies (geograpical) (I still feel Two Sicilies should redirect here but have a disambiguation link at the top). The reason for the pre-united kingdom useage is complex, relating to the fact that the Kingdom of Naples in extremely formal uses was refered to as the Kingdom of Sicily as well.. though it was a different thing to the island Kingdom of Sicily, which existed indepedently at exactly the same time.

Also on an unrelated note to the move, can we not have that filthy Lombard tricolour which was used in 1860 only as a represenative of the flag? (it was added by R-41). It should be the one used before, the plain white one with the Bourbon arms. - Gennarous (talk) 01:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If "Two Sicilies is meaningless outside the context of the Kingdom," then there shouldn't be any ambiguity. Why the move then? On the other hand, if Two Sicilies transcends the kingdom as the Two Sicilies independence movement suggests, then the page should stay at its current location. Oppose. Awaiting more convincing arguments. — AjaxSmack 02:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Two Sicilies is a political party (in English movement has a different meaning from movimento in Italian), thus I rollbacked the move. --Checco (talk) 08:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Gennarous... Two Sicilies (Due Sicilie) isn't a political party. It's just a club [2]. Two Sicilies is the name of an Italian region, not only the kingdom. What kind of reason you need? Anyway you should use the right name for this article: Kingdom of Two Sicilies --Wento (talk) 11:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
That is the wrong title. You mean Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. Charles 19:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok Charles, excuse my english and "my way" ;-). Anyway I agree with you. We should correct the title of this article, then we can use Two Sicilies as a redirect to Kingdom of Two Sicilies (Kingdom of the Two Sicilies), meanwhile somebody will find convincing sources to prove that Two Sicilies means it:Mezzogiorno d'Italia even if it is not a synonym of "Kingdom of Two Sicilies". First the terms Two Sicilies was used by Alfonso V of Aragon to designate his United Crown of Sicily (Naples) and Trinacria (Isle of Sicily), Utriusque Siciliae, but noone used the term to designate a state until Joachim Murat. On the other hand geographers and historians used the term Two Sicilies to designate the whole Kingdom of Naples and Sicily after Alfonso V of Aragon invented "Utriusque Siciliae", and now in some italian works we can find the expression Due Sicilie (Two Sicilies) and duosiciliano ("Two-sicilians", or "Two-sicels") as a geographical synonym of it:Mezzogiorno d'Italia. I hope I'm covincing enough. Thanks--Wento (talk) 23:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] founded by "Ferdinand I"

The Kingdom of Two Sicilies was founded first by Napoleon when he invested Murat with the title King of Two Sicilies. In the same time he claimed juridical and political right on the it:Apostolica Legazia di Sicilia, an ecclesiastical institution where local church powers where ruled by the king. Whe have to corret the introduction of this article or mark it with a template. Napoleon gave also the first constitution of Two Sicilies. Bye--Wento (talk) 11:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

How do we treat Murat using the name though? Since he never actually controlled the island of Sicily (where Ferdinand had fled to and was protected by the British), so Murat essentially only had one part of the Two Sicilies, correct? - Gennarous (talk) 11:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
If we consider Two Sicilies as a geografical expression, then whe have to say that Murat had only a part of Two Sicilies. Actually Murat's kingdom never hold Sicily. If we want to cosider Two Sicilies as an historical kingdom, we should notice that it was founded by the Edict of Bayonne, when Zurlo wrote the first (United kingdom of) Two Sicilies constitution. Zurlo himself become minister of Ferdinand I after restauration. See: Ercole F., Gli uomini politici in Enciclopedia biografica e bibliografica italiana by Ribera A., p. 365 (article on Zurlo), Roma 1942. There's an historical continuum in Two Sicilies' civil identity from Murat to Bourbon, so we should specify that kingdom of Two Sicilies started with Napoleon and Murat and then developed in Bourbon Restoration. I think we should write that on incipit or just after it. Bye --Wento (talk) 12:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll change the wording to "The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (Italian: Regno delle Due Sicilie) was the name of a united kingdom first put into practice by Bourbon king Ferdinand I." So that it shows Ferdinand was the first to hold and united both kingdoms into one called the Two Sicilies. Then later in the article we should explain the more complex situation with Murat holding the mainland for a while and using the name Two Sicilies, which is obviously important too. - Gennarous (talk) 19:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it's a good solution. See also what I've added and than tell me if whe have to discuss about it. Please do not remove first Two Sicilies flag, thanks and bye. --Wento (talk) 10:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Wento, I'm not really sure that we should go as far as to include the Murat flag because he never actually owned the Two Sicilies, in reality he only owned Naples (One Sicilie). Its just a technicality that on paper it said "Two Sicilies"... we can't just expand the historical time frame of the kingdom to 1808-1861 when Murat or his men never actually set foot on Sicily. I've reworked the lead sentence a bit though, tell me what you think. We should also keep the paragraph not that long, the Papal Concord thing is just details that could go in the full body of the article lower down. - Gennarous (talk) 11:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Two Sicilies was a state first founded by Edic of Bayonne. Even if Murat never possesed Sicily, his kingdom was called Kingdom of Two Sicilies before Bourbon restauration. We have to say it on incipit (Edict of Bayonne) --Wento (talk) 11:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I think Edict of Bayonne's article should be made first before we link it in the intro or it looks just messy. Also, if Murat called his kingdom "Two Sicilies", does this mean we should remove him from Kings of Naples? - Gennarous (talk) 11:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Whe have to include that info both in Kingdom of Naples both in Kingdom of Two Sicilies. There's an historical continuum that we shouldn't ignore. You removed also the concordat's citation. Can you tell me the reason of this edit? --Wento (talk) 11:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

How can it be both, if you said he was "King of the Two Sicilies" in 1808? He can't be King of Two Sicilies AND King of Naples in 1808, because that just looks confusing to readers who do not know minor details. I tried to look for more information about the Edict, but that book seems to be the only source. Unless it is the "Bayonee Decree" of Napoleon in 1808, but I can't find mention of Two Sicilies, that just mentions something about US ships.[3] IMO we should find several sources describing Murat as king of the Two Sicilies before we rewrite the history of the kingdom. - Gennarous (talk) 11:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no confusion. Kindom of Naples become Kingdom of Two Sicilies after Giuseppe Bonaparte. What's unclear? About Bayonne Edict I can cite you bibliography and Napoleon's own world- I'll do a page of the edict soon. See also it:Statuto di Baiona, ca:Constitució de Baiona, es:Estatuto de Bayona, fr:Constitution de Bayonne--Wento (talk) 11:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

OK I have found something, a full good source of his official title; "Joachim Napoleon thanks to God and to the Constitution of the State, King of the two Sicilies and Great Admiral of the Empire".[4] So if officially, that kingdom was known as "two Sicilies" under Murat, then shouldn't we change the time frames of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies and Kingdom of Naples, also updating the Kings of Naples article with more info?... It also brings in a strange period, when Ferdinand was restored, he was still just "King of Naples and King of Sicily" as two seperate kingdoms for another year before the Congress of Vienna was finished and he was renamed "King of the Two Sicilies". - Gennarous (talk) 11:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that whe should add info in Kingdom of Naples article. Formerly Ferdinand I was invested as king of the two siciles after Congress of Vienna, despite he returned in Naples as "king of Naples" (17 June 1815). In 8 December 1816 he signed a low known as "Ritorno del Re. Nuove disposizioni di Stato" in wich he officially get Two Sicilies' title and regognized Murat's kingdom as Two Sicilies (not Murat's title). In 16 February 1818 Ferdiand I signed a concordat with Pope in wich he abolished some feudal rights in Neapolitan mainland, actually founding Two Sicilies. Thanks --Wento (talk) 12:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language 2

This may be an ignorant question, but can anyone explain the situation regarding official language or languages used in the kindgom? Obviously, the masses spoke regional dialects of Neapolitan, Sicilian, etc., but was there a standard language (for example used by government and schools)? Had standard Italian come into use before unification as someone claims above? Was Spanish superseded (assuming it was used by the former kingdoms) and did it really influence the local dialects, as some WP articles claim? How profuse would Italian have been amongst the business classes? Dionix (talk) 23:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaking about Sicily, there's no doubt that the educated classes (a small percentage of the population at the time) did their schooling in Italian. So someone like Giovanni Verga, one of the great Italian writers of the 19th century, was born 20 years before the unification of Italy. Many poets wrote in Sicilian during this time, and the noble prize winner Luigi Pirandello wrote plays in both Italian and Sicilian, but the lingua franca for much of what ultimately became the modern state of Italy had been "Tuscan" Italian for a few centuries. I have sources which show that Sicilian was used to record the Sicilian Parliament through the 14th and early part of the 15th centuries, but half way through that century, Tuscan Italian slowly begins to supplant Sicilian (evidenced by the increasing use of Italian endings to nouns and verbs). By the start of the 16th century, this process is complete. Of course, the language spoken by the populace was something else again. It's also worth bearing in mind that the Universities and the courts used Latin till very late in the piece as well. πιππίνυ δ - (dica) 02:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Official languages where Latin, Italian and Spanish. Since 1815 only Italian.--Wento (talk) 09:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but if you go back to the split in the Kingdom following the Sicilian Vespers, the official language was both Latin and Sicilian, the language of the court was Catalan. πιππίνυ δ - (dica) 10:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] anon keeps calling Ferdinand I "Spanish" in article

Rather irritatingly, its an anon and he keeps ignoring the edit summaries. Charles VII of Naples (later Charles III of Spain) established a cadet branch of the House of Bourbon. It was not under direct control of Spain, or the Spanish House of Bourbon under Charles or after him. Explicitly they were separate because when he became king of Spain he had to give up the Neapolitan and Sicilian crowns.

His son Ferdinand I of the Two Sicilies was thus, not "Spanish". He was born in Naples in the Kingdom of Naples, as a member of the House of Bourbon which was not controlled by either French or Spanish houses. Indepedent. Had the Spanish directly controlled the two kingdoms with Charles invasion, it would likely have failed as the people would have revolted. So can this anon stop saying that Ferdinand was "Spanish"? - Gennarous (talk) 08:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)