Talk:Kingdom of Sussex

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The sentence “It was one of the seven traditional kingdoms of the so-called Anglo-Saxon heptarchy” merely duplicates the information in the previous sentence “one of the kingdoms of Anglo-Saxon Britain”, and introduces a link to a myth about the seven kingdoms, which, like the seven deadly sins and the seven sleepers, has no basis in reality. The word “Britain” is inaccurate and should be replaced by “England”. The word “modern” before “county” has been simply edited out; it should have been replaced by “later”, “traditional” or “historic”.

Ælle, his three sons, their three ships, and their three battles are fictional: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aelle_of_Sussex

“AEthelwald” should be “Æðelwealh”, and “two princes” should be “two ealdormen”. The South Saxon see was moved to Chichester in 1075, so “until the Norman Conquest” should be “until after the Norman Conquest”, or even “until 1075”.

Nunna is just a hypocoristic form of Noðhelm, in the same way as Gazza is a hypocoristic form of Gascoigne.

Dumnonia and West Wales are different names for the same area, so “Geraint of Dumnonia, king of the West Welsh” is repetitive and could be reduced down to “Geraint, King of Dumnonia”, or even “Geraint, King of Devon”.

In 692 Noðhelm granted land to his sister Noðgyð. He was styled Nothelmus rex Suthsax’ in the body of the charter, but he signed it as Nunna rex Sussax’ [1]. Noðhelm’s last surviving charter, in which he was called Nunna rex Suthsax’, is dated 714, probably in error for 717, [2] so his reign began in or before 692 and ended in or after 717.

Noðhelm’s charter of 692 was witnessed by Watt, who signed as Wattus rex, without any indication of his territory, but it is probable that he reigned in Sussex, because he also witnessed (again as Wattus rex) an undated charter (but before about 705) by Bruny dux Suthsax’ [3] together with Nunna rex. He is also listed as a witness (as Uuattus rex) of a another charter, erroneously dated 775, which is believed to be a forgery [4]. So, Watt’s reign began in or before 692, and extended at least to some date before about 705.

The sentence “A grant, dated by Birch about 725, is made by Nunna to Eadberht, bishop of Selsey, and to this too Uuattus appears as a witness” should be deleted, as this is a reference to the forged charter that is actually dated 775. The amended date of 725, suggested by Birch, is still impossible, because two of the supposed witnesses were dead by then.

“Aldbryht” is Ealdberht. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle does not say why Ine fought against the South Saxons, nor where Ealdberht had fled from, so the sentence should be amended to “In 722 Ealdberht fled into Surrey and Sussex, and Ine fought against the South Saxons”, in order to remove the speculation.

The sentence “An undated grant is made by Nunna about this time, which is witnessed by a King AEthelberht” is incorrect and should be deleted. It is probably derived from Æðelberht’s undated endorsement to an undated charter of Noðhelm [5] that was actually witnessed by Osric (as Osricus) without indication of rank or territory, but listed before (and therefore ranked higher than) the Bishop of Selsey (whose rank and see are also omitted). The charter can be approximately dated to some point between about 705 and 717.

One king omitted from the present text is Æðelstan, who witnessed Noðhelm’s last surviving charter, which is dated 714 in error for 717, [6], as Athelstan rex. There is no indication of his territory. The same charter was also witnessed by Queen Æðelðryð, as Edeldrið regina. There is no clue as to how she was related to the various kings.

The dates of Æðelberht’s reign are unknown beyond the fact that it overlapped at least in part with the bishopship of Sigeferth (who was consecrated in 733 and was still bishop in 747) as Sigeferth witnessed an undated charter of Æðelberht [7] in which Æðelberht is styled Ethelbertus rex Sussaxonum. Another undated charter, in which he is called Adelbertus rex Australium Saxonum, is believe to be a forgery [8]. He is also mentioned in an undated endorsement to a charter of Noðhelm as Ethilberchto rege [9].

The paragraph beginning “After which” is somewhat confused. It is not true that Offa of Mercia witnessed charters of South Saxon kings (he merely confirmed them later). It is true that Offa subjugated Sussex and issued a charter in 772 that was witnessed by at least three ealdormen who had previously been kings (Osmund, Ælfwald, and Oslac, possibly also Oswald). Therefore South Saxon independence ended at this point, but the former kings continued to govern as ealdormen.

Osmund was reigning in Sussex when Archbishop Cuðberht died in 760, so his rule commenced before that event. He also issued a charter dated 770 in which he is listed as Osmundus rex [10]. So Osmund’s reign was in or before 760 to between 770 and 772, as he witnessed a charter of Offa, King of Mercia, dated 772 as Osmund dux [11].

Ealdwulf issued an undated charter as Alduulf rex [12]. Later, he issued an undated charter as Aldwlfus dux Suthsaxonum, and signed as Aldwlf dux, [13], and another, dated 711 in error for 791 as Aldwlfus dux Suthsaxonum [14] with the subscription Ealdwlf.

Ælfwald witnessed Ealdwulf’s undated charter, corruptly recorded as Ælhuuald rex [15]. He also witnessed the charter of Offa, King of Mercia, dated 772 as Ælbuuald dux [16], with his name placed after Oswald, Osmund, but before Oslac.

Oslac witnessed Ealdwulf’s undated charter, corruptly recorded as Osiai rex [17]. He also witnessed the charter of Offa, King of Mercia, dated 772 as Oslac dux [18], with his name placed after Oswald, Osmund, and Ælfwald. His latest surviving charter is dated 790, and the original still exists; he is styled Oslac dux Suthsaxorum [19].

This is no evidence that Oswald was ever king, but he witnessed the charter of Offa, King of Mercia, dated 772 as Osuualdus dux Suðsax' [20]. He was listed ahead of the three former kings Osmund, Ælfwald, and Oslac.

The death of Eadwine, Ealdorman of Sussex, is recorded in 982, because he was buried at Abingdon Abbey in Berkshire, where one version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle was compiled. According to the abbey’s records, in which he was called “princeps Australium Saxonum, Eadwinus nomine”, he bequeathed estates to them in his will, although the document itself has not survived. Earlier in the same year he witnessed a charter of King Æðelræd Unræd [21] as “Eaduuine dux”. His name was also added to a forged charter dated 956 (possibly an error for 976) [22].

In the next generation, Wulfnoð Cild, Thegn of Sussex, played a prominent part in English politics. In 1009 his actions resulted in the destruction of the English fleet, and by 1011 Sussex, together with most of South East England, was in the hands of the Danes. In an early example of local government reform, the Anglo-Saxon ealdormandoms were abolished by the Danish kings and replaced a smaller number of larger earldoms. Wulfnoð Cild was the father of Godwine, who was made Earl of Wessex in 1020. His earldom included Sussex. When he died in 1053, Godwine was succeeded as Earl of Wessex (including Sussex) by his son Harold, who had previously been Earl of East Anglia.

Hovite 16:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] capital?

So where was the capital of the Kingdom of Sussex? The article doesn't say. Don't we know?

[edit] Map discussion

Yorkshirian recently added this new version of an old map to this article; it was removed by Deacon of Pndapetzim and re-added by Yorkshirian. I'd like to replace it with this map instead, which doesn't use boundaries. The changes were made to several articles, so to centralize discussion, please post at Talk:Mercia#Map if you have an opinion. Mike Christie (talk) 02:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)