Talk:Kingdom of Sardinia

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A map would be useful.

Got a public domain one from 1839. --Wetman 20:39, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Historical innacuracy

'Napoleon III didn't keep his promises to Cavour. Napoleon seized Lombardy. In 1860, however, Sardinia gained Lombardy from France in exchange for Savoie and Nice.'

This is nonsense, Louis-Napoleon didn't keep his promise to fight the Austrians until all of the Kingdom of Lombardia-Veneto was in their hands, but this is not made clear. After the bloody battles of Magenta and Solferino he got anxious about dragging the war out and made peace. Austria refused outright to cede any territory to the Savoyards. The French agreed with Cavour that they would accept the cession of Lombardia to France from Austria and then immediately cede it again to Piemonte-Sardigna. Which they then did, in 1859, not 1860, Napoleon never 'seised' anything they merely used France as a go between in the peace deal to 'save face' for Austria.

Because the had reneged on his deal with Cavour (in which they had secretely agreed that Napoleon could have Nissa and Savoie, territories the French had long lusted after in return for getting all of Lombardia-Veneto) he allowed Vittorio-Emmanuelle II to keep Savoie and Nissa aswell as Lombardia. But in the following months (early 1860) most of north-central Italy revolted against their rulers, Firenze, Modena, Parma and the Romagna all held plebiscites which were overwhelmingly pro-Savoyard.

Whether these were real or not didn't matter but they all joined Piemonte-Sardigna. This allarmed Louis-Napoleon as he didn't want a strong Savoy on his border and so demanded that if they wanted to keep the new lands they would have to cede Savoie and Nissa. Cavour then agreed to cede them after (most likely fake) plebiscites showed around 90% wanted to join France.

I don't have an account or know anything about editing articels but this point about Napoleon really needs changing. - SeeK100

[edit] Kingdom of Sardinia

..In the 19th century the alternative name Sardinia-Piedmont came in use.... That's not true: until 1861 was always called, officially, Kingdom of Sardinia. --Shardan 17:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Ehmm… ! I’m sorry, officially, Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont has never existed, as you can see here: [1] if you got an official source whit that name, please show it.

The official name has allways been Kingdom of Sardinia (Regnum Sardiniae et Corsicae) and the crown that kings of Sardinia - (later kings of Italy) - had on their head, it was the same crown that pope Boniface VIII put on the head of James II of Aragon in 1297. Please shows official sources if you wont change the name.--Shardan 14:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ehmm, ehmm... ! First, This statement in the main article is false: "In 1743 the kingdom was combined with Piedmont as the Kingdom of Sardinia." (I will delete it.) The lands controlled by the House of Savoy (Savoy and Piedmont) were merged with the Kingdom of Sardinia when the land swap for Sicily took place in 1720. A simple Google search for images of coinage produced by "Sardinia" or "Savoy" will produce photos of coins with the correct full name of the nation on them. The site www.cgb.fr produced images of a silver 5 sols coin dated "1700" with a bust of Victor-Amadée II that reads in Latin abbreviations: "DUX. SAB." (on the obverse), "RX. CYPRI. PRINC. PEDEM." (on the reverse), i.e. "Duchy of Savoy, Kingdom of Cyprus, Principality of Piedmont." The same site also produced an image of a 5 sols coin dated "1730" with a bust of Charles-Emmanuel III that reads: "REX. SAR. CYP. ET IER." (on obverse), "DUX. SAB. ET MONTISF. PRINC. PEDEM." (on the reverse), i.e. "Kingdom of Sardinia, Cyprus, and Jerusalem, Duchy of Savoy and Montferrat, Principality of Piedmont." (Note: I own a gold 1 doppia from 1786 with essentially the same text.) Obviously, Savoy and Piedmont were one nation in 1700 AND in 1730 when Sardinia was merged into it (BEFORE 1743). (The capital of the House of Savoy was Torino/Turin, and became the capital of the "Kingdom of Sardinia ..." in 1720.) And, obviously, "The official name has allways been Kingdom of Sardinia (Regnum Sardiniae et Corsicae)" posted by Shardan is an incorrect statement, too.
The name of nation controlled by the House of Savoy was so changeable and complex that most scholars "invent" short names for it in their books that are acceptable in their own contexts, but hardly "official." One of the more interesting solutions to this nation's name - because the name "Kingdom of Sardinia" for historical events after 1720 is so misleading - is used by Christopher Storrs in his excellent book in the Cambridge Studies in Italian History in Culture series, entitled "War, Diplomacy and the Rise of Savoy, 1690-1720" (Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1999). He discusses this matter at length in the his Intoduction. His decision is to use the name: "the Savoy State" to identify the nation in all of its various guises before and after 1720. (Please forgive my poor written English.) Charvex 09:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
...Ehmm, ehmm, ehmm!...In 1298, his official name was Regnum Sardiniae et Corsicae, (for that reason – entre parenthése – I wrote Regnum Sardiniae et Corsicae). In 1475, the twins islands were separated in the official name and Kingdom of Sardinia was the only name until 1861,.... but not for Papacy... that never recognized that division ! Imho, I was not wrong before. Par contre - imho - you are wrong when you assert: ....the capital of the House of Savoy was Torino/Turin, and became the capital of the "Kingdom of Sardinia" in 1720..... From June 19, 1324 to June 10, 1326, the capitol was Bonaria, a little town (..allora..) near Cagliari. After, from June 10, 1326, Kingdom of Sardinia capital has always been Cagliari until March 17, 1861. There are not historical documents that confirm Torino as official capital of the Kingdom. Torino was the political and economical capital, but not the official one. By --Shardan 20:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdoms or giudicati ?

According Mr Francesco Cesar Casula, one of the most important italian experts about Sardinia mediaeval history, in his book La Storia di Sardegna and after in the other Breve storia di Sardegna ( ISBN 88-7138-065-7), at page 85, writing about Kingdom (or giuducato) of Calari, says: come gli altri tre giudicati, il regno di Calari era anch’ esso uno Stato sovrano e perfetto, perchè aveva la facoltà di stipulare accordi internazionali ...(...) ( in en.... like the other three giudicati, the kingdom (it: Regno) of Calari was a sovereign and perfect State because he was able to stipulate international treaties...(…). I think that in Wikipedia , according to Mr Casula studies , we can affirm that the giudicati they were real kingdoms. --Shardan 12:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Could we not speak then with equal correctness of the regno di Monaco or the regno di Liechtenstein? There's no reason to apply "kingdom" in English to an independent state that does not have a king; it does not serve the Wikipedia reader. --Wetman 13:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
You should cite the sources in the article, too. Not just the talk page. That said, regno should not always be translated "kingdom," but more often "realm" or "sovereign state." There are many sovereignties which are not royal and the giudicati were not royal. In short, I agree with Wetman. Srnec 18:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Monaco is a Principato (in French: Principautè) and is not a Kingdom; idem for Liechtenstein and Andorra. The ‘’Judike’’ is a King, not a prince.

To know more (if you know Italian language), on it.Wiki you find:

and on en.Wiki:

Anyway, I'm not agree about realm, Kingdom is the right word --Shardan 23:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I am agree about realm. Well chosen, Srnec. --Wetman 00:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to admit to Shardan, at least, that I am aware of usage in both Italian and English of "king"/"re" and "kingdom"/"regno" to describe these identities, but I would not consider that the current or historic scholarly consensus on how best to translate these terms (giudice and giudicato) if the terms are even seen as requiring translation, which is not usual. Thankyou, Wetman. Srnec 05:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I know what you mean Srnec, and I understand complexity in translation giudice and giudicato, but I’m still not agree about realm: surely you know English better than me, but, IMHO, realm got something about legend (‘’the realm of fancy’’) , or something related to a very ancient kingdom that, because of a lack of trustable sources, is more fantasy than history. Anyway, if you want to use realms to indicate the four Sardinian Kingdoms, Wikipedia should use the same term to indicate all the contemporary kingdoms in Europe, starting from X century. However, I don’t really want to create any edit war about, for me is enough to have changed tribal territories, like somebody, few edits ago, has describe the four independents kingdoms.It's OK for all the rest. By --Shardan 22:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Regno di Sardegna
Kingdom of Sardinia
←
 
←
 
←
 
←
1324 – 1861 →
 
→
 
→
Flag Coat of arms
Flag of Savoy, used from 1718 to 1861 Coat of arms
Location of Sardinia
Kingdom of Sardinia, in 1839: Mainland Piedmont with Savoy, Nice, and Sardinia in the inset.
Capital officially Cagliari, later Turin as political and economical capital
Language(s) Italian, French
Spoken languages: Piedmontese in Piedmont, Sardinian in Sardinia, Occitan in Nice and southwestern Piedmontese Alps, Francoprovençal in Savoy and Aosta Valley)
Religion Roman Catholic Church, Waldensians in some piedmontese alpine valley, nombrous jude community (Turin, Nice, Alessandria, Vercelli, Ivrea, Casale Monferrato)
Government Constitutional monarchy
King
 - 1297–1327 James II of Aragon
 - 1849–61 Victor Emmanuel II
Legislature Parliament
 - Upper house Senate
 - Lower house Chamber of Deputies
History
 - Aragon control June 19, 1324
 - Savoy control 1718
 - Napoleonic invasion 1796
 - Congress of Vienna June 9, 1815
 - Constitution March 4, 1848
 - Italian unification March 17, 1861

[edit] Merge Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia into this page

When Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia is searched, the official name of the country is shown as Kingdom of Sardinia and discusses the same information as on this page. The two topics are almost exactly the same, and there is no need for two pages. Information on Piedmont-Sardinia should be part of this article.

I was incorrect, Piedmont-Sardinia IS a different state. This page should focus on the true Kingdom of Sardinia then, not the formal one which was ruled by Piedmont. I have already begun converting the page to concentrating on the pre-Piedmont-control Kingdom of Sardinia.

I merged them. The state is really the same thing right down from 1297 to 1861. Srnec 21:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ALWAYS known as Kingdom of Sardinia?

Numerous reliable English-language sources would beg to differ. It was at the time almost always called the Kingdom of Savoy, not Sardinia, in English. This may be because British writers were most familiar with the area around the Riviera, but to say that it was always called the Kingdom of Sardinia sounds like an overly patriotic POV. I have seven books in front of me, including Greene's History and Boswell's Life of Johnson, and they only call it the Kingdom of Savoy. Sardinia is not mentioned; not once, not ever. ONLY Savoy. --Charlene 17:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Never a need to beg when you feel like differing: the Duchy of Savoy has not yet been raised to a kingdom. You may wish to do so yourself, to satisfy your point-of-view. No reason to mislead the readers by following James Boswell, an eighteenth-century Scot who was neither a genealogist nor a historian, but whose series of journals are an excellent picture of London life. Of course casual usage "rules"! ...but not when you stop to look something up. --Wetman 00:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Disinfobox

A proposed disinfobox is reproduced at right. Just because someone has worked it up doesn't mean we are obliged to cram the text into a ribbon down one side. Look at the wasted space in this bloated object, which informs the reader of the existence of "nombrous jude community", though the article itself doesn't begin to discuss the Jews of Piedmont. I see no reason we have to have this junk foisted on us. WQhat do others think? --Wetman 03:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Then just remove the stupid crap that someone vandalized the infobox with and return the infobox to the page! As of now there is no link on this page between the Kingdom of Sardina (aka Piedmont-Sardinia) to the Kingdom of Italy page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R-41 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the infobox is a complete waste of space. Srnec 20:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The infobox links the succession of states. Because this infobox has been removed the link has been broken. If the "Kingdom of Sardinia" is too large, it should be broken down into individual articles for the "Kingdom of Sardinia and Corsica" and "Piedmont-Sardinia" (for the Savoy led kingdom) as this was the previous arrangement before the two articles were merged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.100.49.90 (talk) 14:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)