Talk:Kingdom of Livonia

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Contents 1 Content 2 Desinforming 3 Fake infobox 4 Definitely a hoax

[edit] Content

The article has a great deal of information about the Livonian War, the Northern Seven Years' War, and Livonia's neighbors, but lacks information about the kingdom itself. Olessi 22:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

No wonder, this article seems more like a practical joke created by some User:Bloomfield. This guy has been busy , it's going to take time to clean up WP from all the mess he ha created. As far as I'm concerned, this article should be rewritten from scratch and renamed "So called Kingdom of Livonia" .--Termer 03:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes, another Bloomfield/sock fantasy. Renaming is overkill, as the short-lived puppet kingdom is known as "Kingdom of Livonia" in scientific literature, see this PhD dissertation and also in common use (see here) - also see respective searches in Google Scholar and Books (latter gives some very good sources). In general, I would recommend scrapping the whole contents and rewriting. -- Sander Säde 05:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Heh, the more I get familiar with Bloomfield and his sockpuppets, the more certain I am that Bloomfield was but a sockpuppet of another well-known editor who likes/liked to create pseudo-historical articles about Estonia. Alas, by now there is no way to verify that. -- Sander Säde 05:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

If the "Kingdom of Livonia" was a puppet government set up during the Livonian War, and this article contains more information about the war itself rather than this government, would merging it and re-directing it to an appropriate section in Livonian War be an idea? Martintg 18:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

There was no government or "Kingdom of Livonia" OK, it was all nominal. It never existed in reality. If anything than the story could be added to Duke Magnus, thats currently Magnus of Livonia another hoax by User:Bloomfield. The title "Magnus of Livonia" could be used for denoting the guy if anything. the title "Kingdom of Livonia" could be used if the text says -was a nominal vassal state of the Moscow Tsar, Ivan IV during the Livonian War--Termer 21:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Termer, would you kindly understand that personal opinions do not matter here. Of course it was a puppet kingdom. And Magnus of Livonia was a puppet. However, as scientific articles use those titles, we are not allowed to change these to our liking. We wouldn't be better then Bloomfeld if we'd start doing that.

Enough of that - and back to Bloomfeld. He had an incredible amount of sockpuppets, some are very probably still active (there are edits from two or three accounts I try to check every now and then. Very probably, the main puppeteer account was not Bloomfeld and is still active as well) - and cleaning his mess will be rather problematic. I wish we could get some professional historians here, to review this mess. For example, Estonian anti-German resistance movement 1941–1944 (moved around several times, originally Estonian resistance movement). Created by Black Cat (talk · contribs), sock of Bloomfeld. Unless someone can verify the content - which is based on this book, I suspect this needs to be either cleared or rewritten from scratch. And we have plenty of these articles. I think we should create a section to WikiProject Estonia listing all the articles that have been created - or edited - by Bloomfeld and his socks. This checkuser case gives at least partial list of his socks.

-- Sander Säde 22:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

personal opinions do not matter here? Exactly my point! Of course it was a puppet kingdom? Please provide a source that says so and I'm fine. So far the source you provided says exactly what I pointed out here. It was a nominal vassal state of...It was a nominal state because it never existed in reality, it didn't have any borders or anything, it was a nominal state created during the Livonian War, there is nothing more to it. --Termer 22:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Desinforming

This "kingdom" was a puppet government created by Ivan the Terrible for Magnus, during Livonian war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.110.66 (talk) 12:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fake infobox

The best gag about this fake infobox, the one I removed was probably that the flag of city Pärnu dating from 1934 was used for the virtual state declared in the 16th century.--Termer (talk) 11:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Client state or not, but why here is not info-box?

Merry Christmas!

--Kidsunited (talk) 00:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Why not an infobox? Sure, just it should be factual, a proclaimed vassal kingdom in the Russian occupied territory during Livonian War, not a nonsense that uses a city flag from 1934.--Termer (talk) 06:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

You can correct it, you can write there "Client Kingdom of the Muscovian Tsardom" (not Russia!). And the flag is correct - it was given to Pärnu by Magnus ca 1575.--62.65.217.97 (talk) 13:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm getting confused, did Magnus give Pärnu the flag of his kingdom or did he use the flag of city Pärnu also for his kingdom? "An attempt to create a vassal state of Tsardom of Russia during Livonian war" sounds about right for the infobox though. --Termer (talk) 12:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It would appear that Magnus gave Parnu the flag of his kingdom. Rcduggan (talk) 00:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, it looks like our hoax master User:Bloomfield has been busy again lately with this article, so I have no other options left but tag this article accordingly.--Termer (talk) 05:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Definitely a hoax

I've taken the liberty to translate the Latvian Wikipedia article regarding the so-called "Kingdom of Livonia," following, with apologies for any errant mistransliterations of names:

The Livonian Kingdom was a monarchy declared during the Livonian war.

Russian tsar Ivan the Terrible together with his German advisors Johann Taube and Elert Kruse plotted to create an independent Livonian state which would be a Russian protectorate. In 1569, Taube and Kruse initiated contacts with Danish prince Magnus. Ivan the Terrible's offer was to transform the entire Livonian confederation territory into a vassal state of Russia, over which Magnus would then rule. Future territories captured by Russia would also be incorporated. Magnus accepted the proposal and on June 10, 1570, he arrived in Moscow. In August, following the completion of talks, Magnus was crowned [in Moscow] as the King of Livonia and married Ivan the Terrible's relative [niece] Euphemia Vladimirovna, into whose dowry the tsar pledge to gift five barrels of gold. The Livonian Kingdom promised freedom of religion, the continuation of prior rights and privileges, and trade with Russia free of all taxes and levies.

Magnus also received 20,000 Russian soldiers under his command, with whom he set of to conquer his kingdom. As his first military objective, Magnus chose Reval (Tallinn), under Swedish control at the time. Ivan the Terrible's plan, by crowning a Danish prince as the Livonian monarch, was to engender support [in the war] from the Danish king, Magnus' brother, Frederick II. However, this plan could not come to fruition, and at the end of 1571, Magnus, having failed in his quest [for a kingdom], was forced to abandon his siege of Tallinn.

So, "declared" as plotted? Yes. Established and existed? Oh so absolutely and completely not. —PētersV (talk) 22:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Found a reference here. —PētersV (talk) 16:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)