Talk:Kingdom of God

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[edit] Notes

Pasted all of the talk from "Kingdom of Heaven" which was moved to "Kingdom of God".

Hello? Is anyone going to actually explain what this is? Something like "The Kingdom of Heaven is..." and an explanation of what exactly we're talking about. It seems to be a random collection of Bible quotes. I'll wait a while to see whether anyone wants to discuss it, then list it for cleanup. Dr Zen 06:16, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is the phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" or "Kingdom of God" actually used in Jewish eschatology as a term for the Messianic age, or is this merely a projection of Christian terminology onto a similar Jewish concept? Shimmin 04:07, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)


The Kingdom of God article also needs a Preterism view point, which I can help you with.

im pretty sure jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world" and the emphasis on "not of this world". what is this but a confusion of a concept of well-being? when did jesus say anything about ruling over people?

read more history

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.63.91 (talk) 23:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

The introduction does close to nothing to actually helping a reader understand what precisely the Kingdom of God. It seems to have been noted as long ago as December 2004 by Dr Zen, however one can read the introduction and still come away with no idea what the Kingdom of Heaven is. Obviously this is an extremely hard notion to sum up in a few sentences, however an attempt must be made to try and simplify the introduction, from which the following bullet points can then support. Rock_Rose 19:13, 22 Nov, 2006 (UTC)


[edit] M'lakoth HaShmyim

Never heard this phrase in my life - please sir it not rabbinical or biblical Mike33 23:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

You have actually written Many Kings of the Heavens. In Judaism no need to worry about whether king or not. He is always - L-rd of Heaven and Earth.

Please cut the hebrew words unless you can prove that you have heard them before. Regards Mike33 23:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I cut the hebrew because it was never substantiated... Glenn4pr 04:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ambiguous sentences

In the section "The Kingdom in Islam", I see the sentences:

Islam holds a great estimation as the location of many events associated with the life of Jesus. From that day, Jerusalem has had a very important spiritual meaning for Muslims, not only being the first Qibla but also the mystical experience of the Islamic prophet Muhammad's ascension to heaven (Isra).

I can't make out a clear meaning here. "estimation" seems to be being used in a form that could be replaced more readably with "esteem", but I thought Islam was a religion, not a location in the sense used here. "From that day" is also ambiguous: from what day? These should be clarified.

Also, regarding this sentence:

Muslims believe that by name Jerusalem suggests "a place of peace" […]

I replaced "by" with "the", which seems to me to keep the semantics the same while aiding readability: a place suggesting something by name I interpret to be the same as the name suggesting it. If this is wrong, revert it and tell me why.

--Drake Wilson 00:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of the Kingdom in Christianity

[edit] Kingdom is a spiritual kingdom

  • Luke 17:21 the kingdom of God is within [or among] you.

[edit] Kingdom is entered through understanding, acceptance with humility, spiritual rebirth, and doing the will of God

  • Mark 12:34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him "You are not far from the kingdom of God."
  • Mark 10:15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.
  • John 3:5 no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit
  • Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

[edit] Kingdom is peopled by the righteous

  • 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?

[edit] Kingdom contrasts the kingdom of Satan

  • Luke 11:18 If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand?

Note that this is not hell since hell is not the domain of Satan, but the dungeon for him.

  • 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgement

--Heptazane

[edit] Presenting Multiple Viewpoints

This article treads on belief issues, so it seems we need to try to present both viewpoints in a balanced way. My edit attempts that, however, I believe the intro still needs work to maintain NPOV. Glenn4pr

OK, I think I've improved the NPOV from my earlier edit. Now the only question is the order of the major sections. I'm not going to fret over that. I could be persuaded that the evangelical viewpoint has roots in restorationist and millenialist thought -- any experts aware of the historical roots of these concepts in fundamntal and evangelical movements? Glenn4pr

The section "Viewpoint of Biblical Scholars and Liberal Theologians" is a mishmash of different non-mainstream viewpoints that grew over time as a place for people to toss stuff. It barely reads in a coherent manner. Elevating it by implying that this is what "scholars" think and moving it to the beginning of the page seems inappropriate from any point of view. Heptazane

I've edited the flow of the passage to hopefully bring more clarity. I don't think there was any attempt to imply the thinking of scholars, the scholars are cited and named. The order of the material pretty clearly follows its chronological development within the historical/liberation context. The positions are presented matter of factly and without advocacy or authoritative voice. In the section that follows, tentatively collected under the "evangelical" label, most of the material is without citation. If you could cite the ideas to their original authors, and give some sense of how these evangelical concepts developed and when, that would e useful. I also think the mainstream Catholic point of view needs attention and seperation from the evangelical interpretation. Like you say, it is a mishmash. Greater distinction to the milleialist and pre-millenialist viewpoints on the Kingdom of God would be enormously helpful. Also, it seems that Restorationist and Mormon thought has a lot to say on this subject, and that is overlooked here. Based on the historical development of the concepts involved, perhaps the ordering of the material should be:

Eusebius>Augustine>(Aquinas)>Modern Mainstream Catholic viewpoint

Reimarus>Schweitzer>Jesus Seminar>Liberation Theology

Restorationist>Mormonism

Pre-Millenialist>Christian Evangelical Glenn4pr 08:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Viewpoint of Evangelical Christian Scholars

Since Glenn4pr put a SectOR tag on here with the comment "trying to get help from those who can verify that this section is not original analysis and cite sources in evangelical movement who say these things", I thought I'd start up the talk on it.

Reading the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research link, my interpretation of a Primary source would include the Bible, just as it includes "historical documents sucn as a diary" and "research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged". Taking a statement at face value from the Bible does not constitute Original research although where it conflicts with other interpretations, those conflicts should be called out.

This is why I disagree with Glenn4pr's original change from "Christian View of the Kingdom of God" to "Evangelical Christian Scholars" because there is a face value interpretation of what is written in the Bible and then there is a interpreted "scholarly" interpretation that should be called out distinctly. If this is not the case, then no historical document could be represented in Wikipedia at all unless a scholar had published a paper on it... and even then how could we interpret that paper unless another scholar published a paper on it, and so on.

The key phrase is "collecting and organizing information" -- I'm all for that. In fact to the organization scheme suggested above it would be very useful to have a topic or sub article that enumerates all of the New Testament referece to Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven. No interpretation, just a summary statement and a link.

The problem with the current attempt, and I applaud the thought that has gone into this, is that it involves interpretation and interpretation is either original or needs to be cited. For example, the statement that the kingdom of God is to be entered with "humility." This is based on the enter as a little child passage. Does it mean humility? That is an interpretation. It could mean, "unquestioningly" or "naively" or "without sin" or any number of reasonable interpretations. I don't have a problem with the interpretation offered here, but it is an interpretation and it is original to someone. Neither the word humility nor the concept are explicitly in the biblical text cited. Glenn4pr 06:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The summary at the beginning of this article gives no hint as to the definition of the Kingdom of God other than that it is "defined almost entirely by parable". This is a disservice to the reader who is forced to wade through the various perspectives even though there are concrete things which can be said about Jesus' recorded use of the term. This is why I am moving the definition up. As to interpretation: simply quoting all of the verses would be an acceptably minimal amount of interpretation but not follow the guidelines for a summary, so honing the verses down to a non-interprative summary is desirable. The point that Glenn4pr makes about the interpretation on humility is well taken, so to remove interpretation, the word-for-word phrase "like a little child" can be used. While this still leaves the summary a bit vague, the reader may dig inot the sub-articles for more specific interpretations. Heptazane 08:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't have time to work on this at the moment although I'd like to return to this subject. However, there are some great books by evangelical scholars that do a good job of explaining these concepts. The classic is John Bright's "The Kingdom of God" (ISBN 0687209080). Other good references are "The Gospel of the Kingdom" by George Eldon Ladd (ISBN 9780802812803); "Announcing the Kingdom" by Arthur Glasser (ISBN 0801026261); "The Good News of the Kingdom" edited by Charles Van Engen (ISBN 1579102786); "Coming of the Kingdom" by H.R. Ridderbos (ISBN 0875524087); and "The Mission of God" by Christopher Wright (ISBN 9780830825714). CarverM (talk) 04:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What is?

What is "The True Kingdom of Heavens-Union Spirist"? looks like an item for deletion? Glenn4pr 05:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] basileia

The article has nothing regarding the use of the word "basileia" in other documents that were written at the time. Hackwrench 05:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Some say the term, as used in the New Testament, was original to Jesus, so there isn't a great deal in contemporary Jewish literature that can help us.

This article may be a good source for those contributing to this page: http://www.beginningwithmoses.org/articles/leithartkingdomofgod.htm

I've seen the review of basileia / basileia tou theou use in other texts, but I can't put my hands on it at the moment. Not sure if it was Crossan, or another source. Glenn4pr 07:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

It's Jewish, see http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=225&letter=K

And so was Jesus. We wouldn't expect it to be a complete break. But I guess the point is that the theme is nowhere else developed as thoroughly as in the synoptic gospels. And no one prior to Jesus used it as the anthem, the cause, around which all the lessons centered. Right? By the way, the article in the Jewish Encyclopedia is rated 2.77 out of 5, if that means anything. Glenn4pr 15:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

John the Baptist: "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." Matt 3 See also Essenes. See also Zealots.

Jesus did not invent the term basileia. Here's a quote from Plato, Critias 115c, as part of his description of Atlantis:
hiera kai tas basilikas oikêseis kai tous limenas kai ta neôria kai sumpasan tên allên chôran, toiaid' en taxei+ diakosmountes.
tous tês thalattês trochous, hoi peri tên archaian êsan mêtropolin, prôton men egephurôsan, hodon exô kai epi ta basileia poioumenoi. ta de basileia en tautêi têi tou theou kai tôn progonôn katoikêsei kat' archas epoiêsanto euthus, heteros de par' heterou dechomenos, kekosmêmena kosmôn,
And here's the same passage as translated by W.R.M. Lamb (Harvard, 1925):
"their temples and royal dwellings, their harbors and their docks, and all the rest of their country, ordering all in the fashion following.
"First of all they bridged over the circles of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making thereby a road towards and from the royal palace. And they had built the palace at the very beginning where the settlement was first made by their God and their ancestors; and as each king received it from his predecessor, he added to its adornment"
It seems that the term "kingdom" is a little misleading. As used in Greek, the term meant some sort of physical structure. A royal palace, no less. I suggest a disambiguation page, because currently basileia leads right here, which is surely wrong. TharkunColl 15:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Tharkun, I'm not sure I understand your comment -Kingdom is the normal New Testament translation and seems to be widely accepted. (Be Dave 22:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC))
The word in Greek has definite conotations of some sort of physical structure or building (inhabited by royalty or rulers). The traditional Biblical translation is incorrect. TharkunColl 23:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I think that "basileia" is correctly translated as "kingdom." I checked several Greek dictionaries to be sure, and they all suggest a translation of "kingdom," "dominion," or at the outside a "hereditary monarchy." Perhaps, Tharkun, you are thinking of the related word "basileion," which could mean "a palace" or "a kingly dwelling"; another related word is "basilikos," which has a secondary definition of "colonnade." However, "basileia" is correctly translated as "kingdom." SU Linguist 04:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
In his Atlantis narrative, Plato uses basileia to refer to the citadel of the rulers of Atlantis, not the whole kingdom. Conceivably, of course, the word could have changed its meanining between the 4rd century BC and the 1st century AD, but do we have any evidence for this outside the Bible? In short, are modern translations of the word influenced by Christian tradition, rather than the other way round? Perhaps the idea of a physical palace didn't sit too well with evolving theological doctrine - yet isn't the New Jerusalem of Revelation precisely this? (And quite big as well - a huge cube of about the same volume as the moon sitting on the earth.) TharkunColl 08:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a degree in Classics and three years of Greek and Tharkie is right. In Ancient Greek to basileion typically refers to a local King's residence.[1] I wouldn't know about what it means in the NT, maybe just put a brief sentence in the effect that the meaning changed from the earlier meaning.Merkinsmum 12:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Basileia is a queen, [2] but then I only know Ancient, not NT Greek. Maybe it is related to the concept of the church/kingdom of God being wedded to him? If someone could find sources for the derivation/etymology of this word as meaning kingdom of god in the NT I for one would really like a brief sentence or two explaining it in the articleMerkinsmum 12:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I've readded my comments below -for some reason they were removed??? (Be Dave 19:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC))

You would have to look at the translation of the word in the LXX you then have a language to compare it against -the Hebrew-you would also have to allow for the range a word may have at any time so any one word may have more than one meaning. Kingdom in the LXX is Basileia (Gen 10:10, 2 Sam 3:10). All of this is incidental as the constant translation of the word by Greek scholars for many years has been Kingdom, reign... so to change it would count as original research unless someone can quote someone -then it might be worth footnoting as a minority opinion. Otherwise this seems to be a fruitless conversation that wont change the article (193.63.62.252 14:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC))

I'm not suggesting that, just that if there were a sentence in the article explaining the etymology/derivation of the word used in this way it would be really good.Merkinsmum 00:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Areas of unevenness

The article seems a little uneven -on the one hand very basic information that the gospels were written in Greek -is that neccesary here? On the otherhand reference to the Quests for Jesus without an explanation -would it be better to summarise here or simply link to the Quest for the historical Jesus article. Incidently -Schweitzer is end of 1st quest -second/new quest is post Bultmann. (Be Dave 22:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC))
Next point -the article says that The Kingdom of God is explained only in the parables of Jesus. That seems disputable to me -are the parables offering definitions/explanations any more or less than say the teaching of the beattitudes or the actions/miracles of Jesus NT Wright and EP Sanders would argue a wide reading to gain an understanding (Be Dave 22:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC))
Finally for now! The section on Evangelical Scholarship -I'm not sure the dispute there is neccessarily an Evangelical distinctive -per se. Depends I guess whether you think that Evangelical is appropriate and fundamental in describing Dodd, Perrin etc? (Be Dave 22:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] premillenialists

I've made some significant but imho still incomplete changes to the section previously entitled other viewpoints. They seem -especially with the Christadelphian bit added to be views that emphasise a premillenial return of Christ to rule over Israel and the nations. This would then include with further editing dispensationalists -e.g Lehaye, Christian Brethren with further editing. I alos thing we could have one paragraph stating the essential views and then a list of groups holding them with minor comment on any significant variation. In my very humble opinion you coudl just end up with a "me too" if we tried to describe in detail every variation on the theme. -let me know what you think ta (Be Dave 19:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)) Can we have a go at rewording the Jehovah's witness bit -it doesn't seem to read right to me. Also the phrase that they extend it beyond being a state of mind seems to apply wider than JWS and seems redundant to me (Be Dave 16:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC))

+++++++++++

The writer gives close attention to the differences twixt Catholics, Evangelicals, etc. in their interpretations of what "the kingdom of heaven" means? But shouldn't there be some examination of how Eastern Orthodox Christians interpret this here concept? Tom129.93.17.135 00:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Jerusalem in Arabic

From the article: "Muslims believe that the name Jerusalem suggests 'a place of peace'." AFAIK Jerusalem is called Al-Quds (ألقدص) in Arabic, meaning "the holy", based on the root q-d-s (ق د ص), meaning "holy". (أ ل) is the definite article "the". ِ

At least that is what was written on road signs and what the minibusdrivers always said (AlQuds AlQuds AlQuds). Even though I know Arabic I am not firm with my knowledge of the Christian or Muslim religion, so may be I am missing something? --Soylentyellow 07:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting the introduction.

The introduction was changed to include the following:

According to Jesus, he is the king of the kingdom, and the kingdom is a heavenly one, not literally visible on Earth: *ref* "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within [or among] you." The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible observes: “Although frequently cited as an example of Jesus’ ‘mysticism’ or ‘inwardness,’ this interpretation rests chiefly upon the old translation, ‘within you,’ [KJ, Dy] understood in the unfortunate modern sense of ‘you’ as singular; the ‘you’ ([hy·mon′]) is plural (Jesus is addressing the Pharisees—vs. 20) . . . The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or of personal salvation, runs counter to the context of this verse, and also to the whole NT presentation of the idea.” (Edited by G. A. Buttrick, 1962, Vol. 2, p. 883)

I reverted it because the introduciton is not the place for interpretation, but the objective stating of what is said with further study to follow in the individual sections. The general statement "within people" captures what is said (and plurality that is mentioned above) without speculating on what it means. It is also not entirely accurate to say "he is the king" as there are multiple kingdoms involved as indicated by Luke 22:29 "And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me". Whether the "Kingdom of God" refers to the kingdom governed by Jesus or a greater kingdom by God the Father is also not a discussion for the introduction. Heptazane 18:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Viewpoint edit

I removed the JW's views from the "Other Viewpoints" section as their views were already mentioned in the "Pre-millennial Approaches" section Wintrlnd (talk) 00:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

I did a bit of clean up including removing unsourced statements with one year old citation requests. No offense intended.--Nowa (talk) 23:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom of heaven is within

I would like to know who keeps adding [among] as an alternate translation of "within". Clearly, if Jesus said that the "Kingdom of Heaven is within", and not "among" then this changes everything. —Viriditas | Talk 01:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The NIV translation defaults to within but footnotes "among" as a possible alternate translation. See http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2017:20-17:21&version=31. The NET translation goes with "in your midst" with the explanation "This is a far better translation than “in you.” Jesus would never tell the hostile Pharisees that the kingdom was inside them. The reference is to Jesus present in their midst. He brings the kingdom. Another possible translation would be “in your grasp.” For further discussion and options, see D. L. Bock, Luke (BECNT), 2:1414-19." (see http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Luk&chapter=17#n64) Heptazane (talk) 17:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The Ryrie Study Bible (NASB) says of Luke 17:21 "the kingdom of God is in your midst." The necessary elements of the kingdom were present and needed only to be recognized. It cannot mean "within you" for the kingdom certainly was completely unconnected with the Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking (v. 20). CarverM (talk) 19:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Where is entos (εντός) ever used to mean "among" or "in your midst"? It is always used to mean "inside" and "within". —Viriditas | Talk 10:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not a Greek scholar, but in English you could say "Bob is within your group" meaning he is amongst you. 67.168.53.48 (talk) 03:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Entos hymon dispute

This needs to be covered in the article in depth. Northrop Frye and Jay Macpherson in Biblical and Classical Myths: The Mythological Framework of Western Culture point the finger at the translator responsible for the New English Bible and examine the issue from a secular POV. —Viriditas | Talk 12:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Misdirected

I believe the redirect "Kingdom of Heaven" is erroneous. Can this be fixed. Jasynnash2 (talk) 08:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)