Talk:Kingdom of Armenia

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[edit] Comment

How could have Greater Armenia been "independent" kingdom after Tigran the Great lost?! There has been several treaties between Rome/Byzantum and Parthia/Persia over Armenia -- it has become a vassal state since c. 65 BC, and was only independent from about 95 BC -- so for 30 years. The periods after 66 BC it was a vassal. --AdilBaguirov 17:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The dates seem to be wrong, maybe someone can fix it soon. Artaxiad 20:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

the dates would be wrong when the only two sources cited are both Armenian. Let me help you:

"Under Tigranes, Armenia ascended to a pinnacle of power unique in its history and became, albeit briefly, the strongest state in the Roman east. Extensive territories were taken from the kingdom of Parthia in Iran, which was compelled to sign a treaty of alliance. Iberia (Georgia), Albania, and Atropatene had already accepted Tigranes' suzerainty when the Syrians, tired of anarchy, offered him their crown (83 BC). Tigranes penetrated as far south as Ptolemais (modern 'Akko, Israel).

Although Armenian culture at the time of Tigranes was Iranian, as it had been and as it was fundamentally to remain for many centuries, Hellenic scholars and actors found a welcome at the Armenian court. The Armenian empire lasted until Tigranes became involved in the struggle between his father-in-law, Mithradates VI Eupator of Pontus, and Rome. The Roman general Lucius Licinius Lucullus captured Tigranocerta, Tigranes' new capital, in 69 BC. He failed to reach Artashat, but in 66 BC the legions of Pompey, aided by one of Tigranes' sons, succeeded, compelling the king to renounce Syria and other conquests in the south and to become an ally of Rome. Armenia became a buffer state, and often a battlefield, between Rome and Parthia. Maneuvering between larger neighbours, the Armenians gained a reputation for deviousness; the Roman historian Tacitus called them an ambigua gens (“ambiguous people”)." http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-44267/Armenia#481326.hook

"Both Rome and Parthia strove to establish their own candidates on the Armenian throne until a lasting measure of equilibrium was secured by the treaty of Rhandeia, concluded in AD 63 between the Roman general Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo and Tiridates (Trdat), brother of the Parthian king Vologeses I. Under this treaty a son of the Parthian Arsacid dynasty, the first being Tiridates, would occupy the throne of Armenia but as a Roman vassal. A dispute with Parthia led to Armenia's annexation by the Roman emperor Trajan in 115 or 116, but his successor, Hadrian, withdrew the frontier of the Roman Empire to the Euphrates. After the Roman emperor Caracalla's capture of King Vagharshak and his attempt to annex the country in 216, his successor, Macrinus, recognized Vagharshak's son Tiridates II (Khosrow the Great in Armenian sources) as king of Armenia (217). Tiridates II's resistance to the Sasanid dynasty after the fall of the Arsacid dynasty in Persia (224) ended in his assassination by their agent Anak the Parthian (c. 238) and in the conquest of Armenia by Shapur I, who placed his vassal Artavazd on the throne (252). Under Diocletian, the Persians were forced to relinquish Armenia, and Tiridates III, the son of Tiridates II, was restored to the throne under Roman protection (c. 287); his reign determined the course of much of Armenia's subsequent history, and his conversion by St. Gregory the Illuminator and the adoption of Christianity as the state religion (c. 314) created a permanent gulf between Armenia and Persia." http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-44268/Armenia

From Columbia Encyclopedia, based fully on Armenian sources: "The imperialistic ambitions of King Tigranes led to war with Rome; defeated Armenia became tributary to the republic after the campaigns of Lucullus (69 B.C.) and Pompey (67 B.C.). The Romans distinguished between Greater Armenia and Lesser Armenia, respectively east and west of the Euphrates. Tiridates, a Parthian prince, was confirmed as king of Armenia by Nero in A.D. 66. Christianity was introduced early; Armenia is reckoned the oldest Christian state. In the 3d cent. A.D., Ardashir I, founder of the Sassanid, came to power in Persia and overran Armenia. The persecution of Christians created innumerable martyrs and kindled nationalism among the Armenians, particularly after the partition (387) of the kingdom between Persia and Rome. Attempts at independence were short-lived, as Armenia was the constant prey of Persians, Byzantines, White Huns, Khazars, and Arabs." http://www.bartleby.com/65/ar/Armenia.html

As we can see from the above, any talk of independent or even semi-independent Armenia after AD 63 is impossible -- even kings of Armenia were appointed from abroad (not to mention that just like before, they were not ethnically Armenian -- but that's, once again, no different than under the Orontids and Artaxiads. Also, even the ethnically Persian founders of the Greater Armenia, were kings only with "Roman conscent"[1]: "established themselves with Roman consent as kings of Greater Armenia and its district of Sophene..." --AdilBaguirov 21:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I waited, and not surprizingly, Artaxiad and other users had other priorities, busy reverting pages as opposed to keeping them true. So I made a small editorial change, but haven't touched most of the article yet. Greater Armenia was independent only during 30 years of Tigranes' rule, not before and not after. It was a vassal of Rome and Persia otherwise. --adil 06:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I wonder where do you come up with that stuff? Kingdom of Armenia was never a vassal prior to Artavasdes the second death by Mark Anthony. It was a vassal following that but that does not change its status as a kingdom so long as there was a functioning monarchy until 428 AD. That's when the Kingdom ceased to exist. Once again open RFC if you have further grievances.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 03:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Instead of wondering, you should read carefully -- from Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedias. No one ever disputes the fact that Armenia was always a vassal state except under Tigranes, who was of Iranian origin. --adil 05:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

There are almost no sources in this article, I added some citations, but this artiucle is in urgent need of some real sources its much to POVBaku87 (talk) 11:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Map

I am confused with the map in the article. I couldn't find any source for that map. The map includes almost nowadays Azerbaijan in 200 BC while this map, see original, shows something else in 200 BC.