Talk:Kilogram

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[edit] Number formatting

These two edits to remove “virtually uneditable” HTML code is an unsupportable position and would harm the article. If you lack the skills necessary to deal with it, then don’t deal with it. All the HTML span tags in this article are properly implemented and properly closed. Such code is important so nearly difficult-to-parse numbers like 6.02214179 × 10²³ instead become properly formated, SI-compliant strings that appear like 6.02214179 × 10²³.

This is the same technique as is used in Natural logarithm where the first paragraph displays the number “2.718281828459”. Are you going to haul off to that article and “fix” that article too so the displayed value is “corrected” to the un-parsable abomination of 2.71828182845? Are you going to do this so you don’t have to look at HTML code that you don’t understand?

This issue of having to resort to span tags to delimit numeric strings is currently being addressed. The issue was thoroughly discussed here at Talk:MOSNUM (it’s an archive, don’t make changes there). The consensus at Talk:MOSNUM was to make a new parser function (template) that will automate the delimiting of numbers and the parser function is currently being written. Instead of the cumbersome span-based code, the upcoming parser function will enable editors to type {{delimitnum:6.02246479|30|23|kg}} in order to obtain the following: 6.02246479(30) × 10²³ kg. This article will among the first, if not the first, to use the parser function when it is available.

In the mean time, this article has been stable and for quite some time and is in no need of being rescued by well-intentioned editors. I seriously doubt either of you needed to alter any of the numeric values here so just edit around them in the mean time. Greg L (my talk) 08:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, calm down. There's no need to shout.

Second, it looks like MOS has outgrown its own purpose a bit lately. There is no way to make Wikipedia articles appear properly exactly right on everybody's screen and the attempts to do that usually end up causing problems for other users. If there's no standard way to achieve a visual effect you want, the best thing to do is to not have the visual effect.

The mess in the article sucks, and the benefits of having numbers spaced exactly according to the standard are negligible compared to it. And you don't need a special parser function to achieve the effect. Writing a template that can accomplish what you want is pretty much trivial. Zocky | picture popups 08:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• I am calm and I am not shouting. Your unfounded insinuation that I am does not establish you as a calm and wise voice of reason here. UPPERCASE is shouting. Underlining, as I did above, is for emphasis. You should learn computer etiquette before pretending to “correct” others. You have been a registered author for less than a year and are unqualified to make declarations like “the mess is unacceptable.” This article properly uses HTML code that is specifically supported by Wikipedia. Get familiar with it and stop deleting it wherever you encounter it. I provided links for you to read and your quick response betrays that you obviously didn’t take the time to read about what has transpired to address this issue. Greg L (my talk) 08:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

  P.S. Are you seriously suggesting that you are overruling a consensus on MOSNUM because you know better? Do you think that issues like getting a consistent look across many computer platforms, operating systems, and browser hasn’t been thoroughly explored? If so, then you are seriously in error; we even looked at how the delimiting method appears on an iPhone. Greg L (my talk) 09:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I hate when I'm forced to do this, but if you actually bother to check my contributions, you may learn that I've been around long enough (for far far longer than one year) to know "computer etiquette", and that I'm perfectly familiar with HTML. And on things like code readability, I believe I do know better than the regular commenter on MOS, but that's another story.

As for all that "transpired to address this issue" - instead of a lot of talking, somebody should have simply solved it. Here's one way (and I needed all of 30 seconds to write the template) :{{spaced|6.022|464|79(10)|×|10²³|kg}} - 6.02246479(10)×10²³kg. A more specific template could be made, but i doubt it would save any further typing, or confusion. Zocky | picture popups 09:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Well, I am impressed with your template skills. Tell me more about your template. How wide are the spaces? I see they are not non-breaking spaces but use pair-kerning-type effects. Greg L (my talk) 09:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The spaces are .3 em, as you appear to want them, and they're not "pair-kerning-type-effects", they're exactly the same spans that you inserted manually. Zocky | picture popups 09:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, after posting the above question, I realized that I only needed to go and look at your template. I see the 0.3-em spaces. I must profess that you did that astonishingly quickly. Please read the {delimitnum} archive page; there is much more to it. The spans must actually be 0.25 em to look good on Firefox, Explorer, and Safari. Spans of 0.3 em drive some readers crazy. Different browsers treat the number 0.25 differently; some resolve the 0.05-em increment (so 0.25 looks good for those users) and Safari rounds 0.25 up to 0.3 (which looks good for those users). Also, the span following the digit 1 must be 0.2 em to not appear like a regular space. All this is being addressed by a behind-the-scenes developer with the parser function. Can you wait until then? Greg L (my talk) 09:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Changing 0.3 to 0.25 is trivial. OTOH, changing the spaces after certain digit is wrong and should not be done. The fact that a space looks wider on your screen after "1" than after "2" is an artifact of the font you're using, and will look different on another person's screen, and will look incorrect in a font that's spaced correctly. Zocky | picture popups 09:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• (undetented) We’re not retarded Zocky. Yes, we know about things looking different to different people and we addressed all of this. You arrived late in this discussion. I’m on the Pacific coast of the U.S. and it is quite late. As you can see from an earlier discussion on Talk:MOSNUM, a great deal of give & take was required to keep everyone happy. Further, the progression of delimiting (to prevent a single dangling digit) and various other issues make this job best handled with a parser function. The hand-tuned values here look good to the various editors who participated in finding a solution. Thee of us e-mailed (bypassing Wikipedia) images of screen shots back and forth until we arrived at a solution that pulled opposing parties together. The beginnings of sharing those exchanges started here on my talk page. The hand-coded numeric strings don’t do end-of-line word wraps, look good, and are Excel-pasteable. Do you think we can leave them as is until the parser function from one of the Wikipedia developers arrives? Greg L (my talk) 09:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I have a better idea: we can just make the template. So I did, see {{delimitnum}}. Let's see if it works for your testcases:

• {{delimitnum|6.02214179|30|23|kg}}: 6.02214179(30) × 10²³ kg
• {{delimitnum|1579800.298728}}: 1,579,800.298728
• {{delimitnum|1.356392733||50|Hz}}: 1.356392733 × 10⁵⁰ Hz
• {{delimitnum|0.45359237|||kg}}: 0.45359237 kg
• {{delimitnum|6.022461}}: 6.022461
• {{delimitnum|6.0224613}}: 6.0224613
• {{delimitnum|6.02246134}}: 6.02246134
• {{delimitnum|6.022461342}}: 6.022461341

Seems to work alright, no? Zocky | picture popups 10:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Zocky, I am very impressed with your template-writing skills (and with the way you collaborate with other editors too). As you can see from looking at all that span code in the Kilogram article, I put a lot of effort into having good looking numeric values that are Excel pasteable. And by following your progress a bit last night, I could see you reacted to this situation by putting in an equal amount of time writing a damned good looking template that can be used not only here in this article, but elsewhere too.

  I just got up after about five hours of sleep and am still a bit blurry-eyed. I don’t mind giving you the honors of replacing many of this article’s numeric strings (there are a few fractions that might not take well to the treatment). My only concern is that every single number currently in the article has been quadruple-checked and is correct. If I make the change, I plan to take the article’s code to a text editor where I can do some global search & replace to ensure strings are properly converted to your new template without changing values. If you don’t mind, I’d really like to try this out. And I suppose having an extra set of “double-checking” eyes won’t hurt after all that work you put into the template. Unless you get to it first, I should have this article converted over in the next 24 hours in an incremental process. Congratulations and thanks again. Greg L (my talk) 17:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

You may want to try User:Zocky/Search Box for that and do it right in the edit box (works only in FF). <disclaimer>There's a bug somewhere in it that appears very occasionally (I haven't tracked it down yet, but if "replace all" doesn't work correctly, try "replace and find next" repeatedly).</disclaimer> Zocky | picture popups 17:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Advisory to all: Zocky put a great deal of effort into this template. It now works and Kilogram has had all applicable numeric strings converted from the old hand-coded (<span>-based) method to the {{delimitnum}} template. The update resulted in a 2.07 kB reduction in article file size and made it much easier for other editors. What Zocky did is quite an accomplishment because other template authors said a function this complex couldn’t be done with a template and really required a parser function.

  The need and proper use of this template was thoroughly discussed here at Talk:MOSNUM (it’s an archive, don’t make changes there). The near-unanimous consensus was that official MOSNUM policy should be that numeric values with five or more digits to the right of the decimal marker should be formated via this template. For those considering its use, you might brush up on the nuances of how and why it should be used at the above-mentioned archive. In a nutshell though, it allows editors to type {{delimitnum|6.02246479|30|23|kg}} in order to obtain the following: 6.02246479(30) × 10²³ kg. Thanks again Zocky. Greg L (my talk) 02:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spans and closed span tags

Everything there was done for a reason and was done properly. If CSS spans are not supposed to be closed, that is news to me. The occasional small spans are to keep some instances of italicized text from crowding into reference numbers. It makes the articles look better and any editor worth his salt can easily comprehend why they are there. As for closing spans with “</span>”, this is the proper way to do it. See Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_94#Continuing_Discussion.2C_specifically_regarding_latest_nutshell_proposal and locate the relevant discussion portion by searching on this text string: “Shouldn't the span tags be closed”.

To save you the effort though, here is a quote from that discussion:

Splarka, if span tags are not supposed to be closed, please prove it. In fact, I proved for myself that in certain circumstances, Wikipedia isn’t forgiving and if I left unclosed span tags active, the next paragraph had the beginning of its first line indented 0.25-em. Only after that new paragraph would the span cancel itself. Other weird effects can happen if you don’t close spans with a like number of close-spans. This is good practice according to Aluvus (above quote) and from my own experience.

If you don’t believe me, check out this example text copied from Kilogram but where I stripped out the close-spans from the numeric delimiting:

In everyday usage, the mass of an object in kilograms is often referred to as its weight, although strictly speaking the weight of an object is the gravitational force on it, measured in newtons (see also Kilogram-force). Similarly, the avoirdupois pound, used in both the Imperial system and U.S. customary units, is a unit of mass and its related unit of force is the pound-force. The avoirdupois pound is defined as exactly 0.45359237 kg, making one kilogram approximately equal to 2.205 avoirdupois pounds.

Many units in the SI system are defined relative to the kilogram so its stability is important. After the International Prototype Kilogram had been found to vary in mass over time, the International Committee for Weights and Measures (known also by its French-language initials CIPM) recommended in 2005 that the kilogram be redefined in terms of fundamental constants of nature.

Note how this paragraph and the second paragraph above both have indented beginnings due to two unclosed span tags from the preceeding paragraph propogating through. All spans in the article are there for a reason and all spans must be closed. Please stop deleting them. Greg L (my talk) 08:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Uh...glossary?

I don't think the glossary section is needed; isn't that what Wiktionary is for? Besides, Wikipedia's an encyclopedia, not a book. I've never seen an encyclopedia with a glossary at the end of every article. Wouldn't wikilinks take care of any confusion about meanings? --Gawaxay (talk • contribs • count) 22:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

• This article had been edited by a good half-dozen editors for a long time and no one even raised the issue once; its virtues are obvious. I think you are framing the question the wrong way. Instead of whether you’ve seen it before in Wikipedia, the question should be “does it serve a good purpose and is it a good thing?” Fine, you don’t think so. However, the discipline of metrology uses terminology unique to the field. The word “prototype” for instance, has a vastly different meaning to engineers and machine designers vs. what people who specialize in the kilogram understand it to mean. It makes absolutely no sense to direct readers to an all-purpose, separate venue (Wiktionary) to look up words that have multiple, discipline-dependent meanings when a glossary with the precise, very specific meaning(s) can be imbedded right where they’re needed. Even within the field of metrology and the kilogram, the word “prototype” has three possible meanings. Trying to shoehorn all these nuanced, application-specific meanings into a general-purpose tool like Wiktionary is no way to do things.

  Note too that the definitions in the glossary are internally referential. For instance, a term like “Primary national standard” can mean “A replica of the IPK possessed by a nation.”  Well, what is a “replica” and what is the “IPK”? With the glossary, reader can instantly see these other definitions. With Wiktionary, you’d be bouncing around forever and would have to keep written notes to keep in all straight. Either that, or you’d have to have exceptionally long definitions in Wiktionary so that every unique term in the definition was itself further defined. Clearly, that is not a suitable approach. The terms used by those in professional metrology constitutes a little subset language of its own and has to be grouped together in one convenient place if you want to make it easiest for readers to quickly and conveniently understand it all. If you read beyond the section heading (“Glossary”) and take the time to read and understand the definitions and interdependencies, its virtues are obvious on the face of it. The hidden editors note at the top of the current glossary conveys this point well enough:

Greg L (my talk) 01:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No longer a B-class article

This article has been greatly improved in the past year or so, and I think it should now be classified as an A class article. Personally, I think that the language is a still a bit dense in places, that the "Stability of the International Prototype Kilogram" and "Importance of the kilogram" sections have too much in common, that there are far too many comments for editors in the text, and that some of the notes are far too long and conversational. However, this really is a good article, and, while having B-class vital articles is a bad thing, I don't think that this article reflects poorly on Wikipedia at all. In fact, I think it reflects very well on Wikipedia. We can just list the article as "A" class in the Wikiproject Physics project, if others agree with me. I took a look at the Version 1.0 page, and I'm not sure what needs to be done to re-class the article for those purposes.

The next thing to do to improve this article is a Wikipedia peer review, and then it should be nominated to be a good article. If this route is taken, it makes sense to wait to re-class the article until after the peer review.

However, I'm not willing to spend the time and energy to shepherd this article through those processes, and I don't think I've corrected any vandalism or improved edits on this article in a long time (I just did a quick read through and a few edits), so I'm planning on removing this article from my watch list.

Suffice to say that kilogram doesn't need my help any more! - Enuja (talk) 02:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

• I’m pleased you feel that way Enuja. As for nominations of any sort, I don’t look forward to that at all. It doesn’t benefit readers much that I can tell. In my opinion, “good article” is principally a gold star for some authors to feel good about themselves and maybe some other reasons that only certain long-time editors might appreciate. Personally, just going through the Featured Picture nomination process (one win, one loss) was so thoroughly distasteful that I never want to do it again. Featured Picture is simply a venue that some—I’m not saying all—editors use as a soap box to stand on and show what good taste they have by demonstrating how damned critical they can be of ridiculously trivial points (like “it was saved as a JPEG, and not a blankety-blank file type). I think I’d just as soon put on tire chains on a summit pass in a blizzard laying on my back in slush with frozen fingers (I did that once), than watch—or worse yet—participate in some sort of peer review.

  Simply knowing that my efforts have contributed to winning you over as an admirer of this article is all the reward I need. You’ve been tough and critical and have forced me to keep my text as tight and succinct as possible. This article, and Wikipedia in turn, has benefited from your input. I hope we can just leave it at that.

  I’m glad that you don’t have the energy to shepherd Kilogram through the peer review process. I’m heading into a 12-pig study on a medical device here in a few weeks and don’t need an enjoyable hobby turned into a energy-sapping nightmare. Suffice to say, my energy level for shepherding this article through the peer review process is between zero and reciprocal-infinity. Greg L (my talk) 02:58, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I just noticed that the assessment scale page I was looking at is actually at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment so, yeah, as involved editors we can certainly change the rating of the article ourselves to "A", so that's what I've done. I'll argue that rating articles as not needing radical revision is really important. In other words since this article is much better, it should be classified as an A class instead of a B class article. I honestly couldn't care less about GA or FA status for this article, even though I might want the shiny button of shepharding an article to FA status someday, it will be an article that I have more personal interest in the subject of. - Enuja (talk) 04:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

• Very good. Cheers. Greg L (my talk) 07:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Location of SI multiples section

I only have one major reason to put the SI multiples section at the end of the article; it isn't readable. It's not part of the narrative of the article. It's a section people should go to for reference, not something to read in a narrative flow. Essentially, I think having the section near the top of the article will prevent most readers from actually reading the article. They'll get to that section and figure that if the article already has devolved to the point of being an informational table with notes that it isn't worth reading any more.

On the formatting; if images are large, there will not be enough text to fill the spaces between them, no matter how long the text is. So, following the recommendation in the manual of style, I've removed the pixel specification on all of the images except the lead image and the graph (which would be unreadable in a smaller size). If readers want to see the full glory of the image, they can allows follow the link. There are some seriously wonky formatting problems with images sometimes, but having the next section start before the image from the previous section has ended is, not, to me, a serious formatting issue. I've reduced the size of the caption (you know, made it short and sweet, like I do). It takes a fairly wide window to get the formatting "problem" now, but I don't really think it's a problem. The SI multiples section has a short bit of text and then the centered table, so the image from the previous section is actually making the formatting more pleasing to me. I also don't think there is anything wrong with six paragraphs without images.

Because GregL invited me to change the article back again if I had a strong reason, and I wanted to show my suggested formatting changes, I've done the edit. Don't worry, I'll keep this article watched until this spate of collaboration settles down. - Enuja (talk) 20:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

A precise and controlled 5:1 reduction in size (264 pixels wide) in a high-contrast image like this results in a very attractive, tack-sharp image.

180, 200, 250, or 300-pixel widths (depending on user preference settings), make high contrast images with fine details look fuzzy. Here, a 250-pixel user preference is illustrated. It is close to the 264-pixel width but isn’t an exact integer divisor (±1 pixel) of the original image’s 1319-pixel file size.

* That’s fine Enuja. Rational reasons implemented to good effect. I revised (and necessarily slightly expanded) the caption. The photo of the Meissner effect would amount to little more than pretty decoration if the caption doesn't truly enhance the reader’s understanding of the experiment. Since you’ve been working on the Kilogram article for a long time and you didn’t understand the nature of the actual experiment, then there were undoubtedly many other readers getting it wrong too. Greg L (my talk) 22:25, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. One of the Japanese experimenters’ big problems was magnetic hystereis due to flux trapping at the edges of the material and asymetrical forces. They also had problems keeping track of sideways or tilting motions. Even the helium gas adhering to the mass at the low temperatures was a significant correction. There are some others now trying to do levitation a bit differently. Unfortunately, I haven’t received any information or published papers on these newer experiments. Greg L (my talk) 22:35, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

P.P.S. As you can see, I left all your changes to picture size alone except for one, for reasons illustrated above. Besides, this particular image is mostly decorative and there’s plenty of room in that section for it—regardless of window width. The picture is supposed to have an effect at an intuitive, almost emotional level: electricity and light beams being affected by a hunk of metal. It's better when the picture really pops. Greg L (my talk) 23:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] “So far lost” (days elapsed times factor)

I’ve provided this mostly for my own personal interest but it should be of interest for others. At Importance of the kilogram, there is a paragraph showing how the IPK has “likely already lost 4.5 micrograms.”  That number is a template-generated, auto-updating value that will eventually increment in the near future. Shown below is that value with excess precision so one can see when it is getting close to incrementing another count:

To save you the trouble of having to click on [edit], the template is coded as {{days elapsed times factor|1989|7|1|0.0006434|1}}, which parses as {{ Days elapsed times factor | Year | Month | Day | Factor | Decimal places }}. Essentially, this template increments the value one count every 155 days. As of this writing, the value will increment from 4.4 to 4.5 at 00:00 on 8 June 2008 (UTC). Many thanks to Random832 for this template.

Greg L (my talk) 05:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed article split

I'd like to split the "Proposed future definitions" section into its own article, perhaps "Proposed definitions of the kilogram". The new article would be able to focus entirely on the various theoretical possibilities, and this article would become smaller and more focussed on the practical aspect of the unit. Thoughts? Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 18:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• SheffieldSteel, there would be quite a lot of overlap between two separate articles that talk about the existing kilogram (the IPK) and the alternative definitions because they are so intertwined. It’s easy enough to simply not read the last section of the Kilogram article rather than either 1) duplicate the Stability…, Importance of the kilogram, and Glossary sections across the two articles, or 2) put what would amount to a “Continue to page 2” link directing a reader to an article discussing only the alternative definitions kilograms. Besides, the entire Mass versus weight used to be part of Kilogram at one point (I wrote most of that). A lot of other editors weighed in (no pun intended) on moving that section to a separate article and all seemed to be quite content with the content of Kilogram after that split. When you think about it, the topic of mass v.s. weight really can—and should—be an stand-alone article. But given all the lead up required to explain the need for the new definitions of the kilogram, it would be awkward to bifurcate what is really a single topic. Greg L (my talk) 23:28, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

That's perfectly okay. I wasn't about to climb the Reichstag over this. I just wondered if 'new definitions' was actually a separate topic. Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 21:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Le Grand K

There as been a bit of a Revert War between Greg L and me over my insertion of "Le Grand K". Greg claims the following when I said it is used in other parts of the English-speaking world: "As a matter of fact, I DO know that the rest of the English-speaking world doesn't use that terminology. Please read ALL the below-cited references and stop reading too much into the LA Times". A rather silly statement, if you ask me. No one on the planet, expert in linguistics or otherwise, could make such a claim. And the claim is verifiably false. A simple Google search will yield hundreds (maybe even thousands) of _English_ articles written by professionals (journalists and academics) and published in respected and/or well-circulated newspapers, journals, etc (and not just the "LA Times", which I rarely, if ever, read). I must say that I am surprised that I would have to debate this with a seemingly seasoned editor. The reasons for keeping "Le Grand K" in the article should be obvious and there are thousands of examples all over the English Wikipedia to give precedent. Look at any country article and you will see both the English name and the local language name (and any other variation) of the country in question. Look at the list of French phrases many of us use in every day English to see that calling the IPK "Le Grand K" is not unique or unheard of. It is very much used in the English-speaking circles I move in (academics). One of my professors (from America) used it in our Physical Chemistry class (and never mentioned "IPK"). If someone reads or hears "Le Grand K" in an English setting and wants to look it up in Wikipedia, I doubt they will turn to the French version of the kilogram article. Le Grand K should stay. --Thorwald (talk) 23:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

• The issue is notability and relevance of the citations. You are throwing around wild generalizations about how common it is in the English language but I see no citations. Not a single one of the publications from the BIPM, NIST, CGPM and the Journal of Research of the National Institute of Standards and Technology and elsewhere that were cited in this article use Le Grand K. That is an French-language term. I don’t care what your professor used in a lecture. Cite a notable English-language scientific paper that uses it. I’ll leave your addition in on the assumption that you’ll find something. Greg L (talk) 00:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I never wrote that it was in "common use". I simply stated that it has appeared in many newspapers (LA Times, BBC, Wired Science, Science Daily, Space Daily, Sandia National Laboratories: Highbeam Research, Photonics, Baltimore Sun, etc., etc.) and journals (including the very prestigious "Science" journal). References of "notable English-language scientific [papers]" include:

    Kestenbaum D (1998). Recipe for a Kilogram. Science, 280(5365):823-824. doi:10.1126/science.280.5365.823

    Walker G (2004). A Most Unbearable Weight. Science, 304(5672):812-813. doi:10.1126/science.304.5672.812

    Schaub B (1999). Weight of the world rests on le grand K (kilogram). Equinox, 17(102):38 (supplement)

  I could go on and on with many more references (all in English), but I think you get the point and could have done the research yourself. It is easy to throw around your "hogwash" statements, but they hold no sway on me. Every time you remove it, I shall restore it. There are many, many French-language terms most English-speakers use every day and they appear in the English Wikiepdia. --Thorwald (talk) 01:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

• Fine. I agree. Due to that term’s not-infrequent use in English-language articles directed to a general-interest readership, it is appropriate to mention that it is also known as the Le Grand K. Greg L (talk) 01:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Source Error

They concluded that one cubic decimeter of water at its maximum density was equal to 99.92072% of the mass of the provisional kilogram made four years earlier. - There may be an error in the original source here. Will someone please check me on this reasoning -- For two equal volumes of equal types of matter at different temperatures, the volume of the higher density will contain more mass. Therefore, one liter of water at maximum density (~4c) should have more mass than one liter of water at maximum temperature stability (~0c). The source states instead that the higher density (4c) equal volume of water has 99.92072% the mass of one liter at (0c). (it "weighs less"). Could the original source have these ratio inverted? Thanks. Drakcap (talk) 03:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Indeed, I hadn’t noticed that. Either the researchers who made the provisional kilogram in 1795 were off by quite a bit, or the cited source has their percentage reciprocated. The density of water at 0 °C is 999.8395 kg/m³ and at 3.984 °C, is 999.97495 kg/m³. So one would expect that if the researchers had accurately made the provisional kilogram to equal a cubic decimeter of water at its ice point, a cubic decimeter of water at 4 °C would have a mass that is 100.013547% that of the provisional kilogram. The reciprocal of this is 99.98645% (compare to the cited 99.92072%). The linked Web site cites Richard Steiner (who is currently working on the watt balance for the NIST) and Dr. Terry Quinn, who used to head the BIPM and who authored a book on the kilogram; these are two heavy hitters on the kilogram and I’ve e-mailed them both many times during the writing of this article. I just e-mailed Dr. Quinn about this. My guess is that since it was a “provisional” kilogram that was just banged out without the benefit of any of the years of research on the true density of water, it simply hadn’t been made accurately. If that proves to be the case, I’ll expand the footnote to clarify this point. Thanks. Greg L (talk) 20:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• I just e-mailed Dr. Quinn again. He was busy the first time and just heading out the door and I think he forgot. We’ll get to the bottom of this. Greg L (talk) 22:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)