User talk:KIDB/Archive 3

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[edit] our drama on the high seas

Glad you're enjoying me and Biru's excellent adventure. ;-) We have a habit of getting into long, rambling, pointless discussions about whatever comes into our heads (usually Transylvania) and of course teasing each other mercilessly. I like the idea of bringing Vlad Tepes into the mix--I'm actually reading "The Historian" by Elizabeth Kostova right now, so I've got Vlad on my mind quite a bit...spooky stuff. Of course, I'll have to get myself untied from my ship's mast before much else can happen. ;-) K. Lásztocska 18:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that was my mistake the other day--was still reading it at midnight, end result being I couldn't sleep and ended up clutching a little crucifix (and I'm not even Catholic) to keep away the vampires. Eh--what was that noise? Aaaagh! Is that moonlight, or mist? Dracula can disguise himself as mist! OH NO!!! ;-) Anyway, as long as you read it in broad daylight, it's absolutely brilliant stuff. K. Lásztocska 19:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Horse Heads and Admirals

Haha--somehow I hadn't caught that about being only the second Admiral in Hungarian history...I would simply love to make my grand entrance into Budapest on a white horse, but in the current political climate I'm afraid I'd accidentally get the ultranationalists all excited and I'd end up being followed around by a mob of Fradi goons with Árpád flags. ;-))))

Don't be afraid, there are not so many ultranationalists in Hungary (see the election results). (But the hijacking of a T-34 by a pensioner from an open-air exhibition showed that Hungarian spirits will never die out :-)) --KIDB 08:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, back to serious matters: "Horse Heads" as the name for a caste of people sounds pretty bizarre in English. I would suggest keeping "horsemen" throughout the article, but the first time it's mentioned, say something like: "There were three social classes: Primores, horsemen (lófő in Hungarian, literally "Horse Head") and common Székelys." That allows for linguistic accuracy but also smooth writing style in English.

Are you a Székely, btw? (I'm sure as heck not, my family left Hungary so long ago I'm not even sure which region I come from at all.) :-) K. Lásztocska 17:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

In some cases I translated lófő as knight eg. see Géza Lakatos. I have seen some German sources mentioning Geza Ritter Lakatos von Csíkszentsimon. . What do you think about it? --Koppany 17:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Primor Vilmos Bandy states that title of Primor in Szekler seats can be considered an equivalent of the title Baron or Magnificus in Hungarian counties. Lófő (Primipilus) is a Nobleman or Knight, and Közszékely or Gyalogos (Prixidarius) Székely had a kind of limited or territorial nobility status like Hajdú or Jász-Kun people. --Koppany 17:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Here is an interestin article: mek.oszk.hu/03100/03187/03187.doc --Koppany 17:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nagymagyarország, etc.

Szia, Köszönöm a segitséget a Nagymagyarország-lapon. Sok idézetek szükséges vannak....kérem figyelj a Treaty of Trianon-lapot is? Ott mindegy van...K. Lásztocska 22:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC) PS: and sorry if my Hungarian is still hopelessly garbled...I'm working on it, but I'm still nowhere without this wonderful gadget! :-) K. Lásztocska 22:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but we really need to fix the Trianon article. It was such an important, world-reshaping treaty that it really deserves a well-written, clear and NPOV article...of course we will never get that as long as Panonian is stalking that page. (Does he get on your nerves as much as he gets on mine? He almost made me leave the project for good a few months ago after how he treated Koppany.) I have an excellent and scholarly book, "Paris 1919" about all the Versailles treaties, but of course, if we ever write facts in that article, like that inconvenient little truth that Hungary was treated unfairly, it will just get reverted and we'll get called irredentists. (I'm not, for the record.) So I don't know what to do, but I do know something has to be done.K. Lásztocska 14:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I know that, and you know that, but the Serbs and Slovaks don't know that. Honestly, to hear them talk, you'd think we were all Csurka István groupies. Eventually we'll probably just need to get a coordinated effort together to do some massive article-renovation. Unfortunately, it will probably have to end up being an all-Hungo group--is it ironic that we seem to be the only ones interested in writing a good, informative and NON-POLITICIZED article about Trianon, or what?! Honestly, here's what it seems like certain editors would prefer the article to look like:

The victorious Allies arrived in France with a black-and-white view of the situation in central Europe which made the outcome inevitable. At the heart of the dispute lay fundamentally different views of the nature of the Hungarian presence in the disputed territories. For the chauvinistic and xenophobic Hungarians the ENTIRE Carpathian Basin was seen as "home" (EVEN PARTS WHERE OTHER PEOPLE LIVED TOO!!! zOMG!!). The western powers, American press, and ALL the poor, tortured, excluded and oppressed non-Hungarians, saw the Hungarians as ruthless colonial-style rulers who had oppressed the Slavs and Romanians since 1867, and in many of their views since the Magyar invasion of the Slav-inhabited Panonian Plain in 896!!! There was therefore NO difference between the Turks giving up Wallachia or Serbia in the late nineteenth century and Hungarians giving up MAJORITY-ROMANIAN!!! Transylvania or Ruthenia. For President Wilson (and for all the poor, tortured, excluded and oppressed non-Hungarians) it was a process of decolonisation rather than a punitive dismemberment (as the evil, chauvinist, xenophobic Hungarians saw it). British Prime Minister David Lloyd-George was in favour of Irish independence from Britain and saw the claims of the "subject peoples" of the former Habsburg Empire in the same light. The French naturally sided with their "Latin brothers", the Romanians, although Clemenceau personally detested Bratianu.

Opposite to the opinion of most non-Hungarians from the Carpathian Basin, the Hungarians did not regard the outer parts of the former Kingdom of Hungary as colonial territories. For evil, chauvinistic, xenophobic Hungarian public opinion the realisation that the Americans, British and French were all convinced that at least half of the Carpathian Basin rightfully belonged to the Slavs and Romanians was profoundly shocking!!, I mean, they were like, zOMG, you mean we DON'T rule the WORLD?! Incredulity was followed by a lingering bitterness. The perceived humiliation of the treaty became a dominant theme in inter-war Hungarian politics, analogous with the German reaction to the Treaty of Versailles. All official flags in Hungary were lowered until 1938 when they were raised by one third after southern Slovakia was STOLEN back following the Munich Conference. For Hungarian pupils in the 1930s each school-day began with a FASCIST!!! prayer calling for the reversal of the treaty.

Ugh, sorry about that. I needed to rant. I'm temporarily out of ideas for the crews of the Dacia and Hungaria, btw--though did you see what Biru had the Poles do to the Russians? Remind me never to get on his bad side... K. Lásztocska 16:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, brother. I'm off to do a little damage control...K. Lásztocska 21:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Láttam a bejegyzésed Ronline vitalapján. Déli szomszéd barátunk valóban reménytelen eset, egyszer már kivonultam miatta a Wikipediáról, de talán a saját fegyverével meg lehetne fogni, néhány helytörténeti cikknél sikerült kompromisszumra kényszerítenem, még ha rendszerint én is voltam az, aki többet engedett. --Koppany 23:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, but as long as he does not violate Wiki rules seriously, we can't do too much. Nevertheless, if you need help or witnessing, just tell me what should I do. Thanks. --Koppany 13:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Haven't got any time to get involved again, but I just want to point out one small mistake you've been making--you often write "POW" for "POV", Point Of View. "POW" in English stands for "Prisoner of War." :-) But yes, I just don't know what to do with Mr. Panonian, he really knows how to piss me off, and almost made me leave the project for good a few months back (and just ask Koppany about how Panonian censored his userpage!)What can we even DO, without making ourselves look like a bunch of paranoid nationalists?!K. Lásztocska 00:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you think we should try for mediation/arbitration? Mr P has been nothing but trouble for us for as long as I've been around, and for the Romanians too. His immediate assumptions of bad faith and general belligerent attitude have undoubtedly scared off a good number of potentially good contributors. His recent edits on Trianon show that he is only marginally interested in clear, concise and neutral encyclopedic writing, and prefers instead to drive his point ("Hungarians are evil"?) home with a sledgehammer as many times as possible, even to the detriment of the article's quality. How on Earth are we supposed to write anything about history when people like P keep turning everything into flaming political battles? On the other hand, I hate the lengthy litigation that we can get sucked into when things like RfCs come into the picture--poor Piotrus's case is starting to look like Dante's Inferno by now. The ridiculous thing is, P is so amazingly prolific and has basically single-handedly written Wikipedia's coverage of Serbia (not to mention all those millions of maps!) that we would actually be the poorer for it if he got banned. He just needs a massive attitude transplant...WHAT TO DO?! K. Lásztocska 05:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Council of Europe

Can you, please, remind me in which article I have used the a source from the Council of Europe? Sorry, I don't remember. :) Dpotop 13:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I corrected it on the noticeboard. Dpotop 13:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greater Hungary

Hi KIDB. What is going on at Greater Hungary disambiguation is probably close to winning WP:LAME for 2007. I have protected the page. If Panonian wants to start edit warring over disambiguation pages, then that's just not on. Disambiguation pages are there to facilitate the organisation of information, and should not be used for a POV purpose in any way. If there is a dispute about how to describe the political concept of Greater Hungary, and whether that is irredentist or not, that debate should be carried over at the Greater Hungary (political concept) page rather than the disambiguation page. *sigh*. Have a good day, Ronline ✉ 14:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I will also be updating the mobile phones map as soon as possible. 100% is a cool milestone if you're into mobile telephony indicators :) Now for the 120%... Ronline ✉ 14:58, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Szeklers?

Hi, KIDB. Frunda and Nagy, and probably others you include in the Szekler cat, do not appear to define themselves as such, but rather as Hungarians (as opposed to many other people who label themselves as both). Am I missing something? Dahn 13:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Well.. I... already have... I think we should go with self-definition, since simply being born there may lead to absurdities (I mean, one could easily include any person born in the area in that cat). Btw, is Târgu Mureş/Marosvásárhely generally seen as part of the Szekelyland, or is it just floating around on its margin? Dahn 14:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I was aware of both those things, but there is no indication that it is considered Szekler territory or that its Hungarian inhabitants are Szeklers by default. Is there? Dahn 15:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I see. From what I could tell, in modern Romanian reference, the Szekelyland is generally seen as to the east of Marosvásárhely. Good to know. Btw, the autonomous region was not designed to represent the Szekelyland, but something more arbitrary. Dahn 15:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

What I was referring to is also present in one of the texts you mention: "În prezent Ţinutul Secuiesc cuprinde judeţele Covasna şi Harghita, precum şi o parte din judeţul Mureş şi o comună din judeţul Bacău, înglobate cu ocazia reformei administrative din 1968 acestui din urmă judeţ, cu toate că erau şi sunt locuite majoritar de secui" ("At present the Szekely Land comprises the counties of Covasna and Harghita and a part of Mureş County, as well as a commune in Bacău County etc."); the extend of how much of the Mureş County is considered part of the Szekely Land is not clarified in Romanian discourse (and if Romanians are largely indifferent, when they do refer to the Szekely Land, they refer to Covasna and Harghita - or, at least, that was my impression of it). There is a very similar issue about Oltenia (where does Oltenia end and the Banat begin?, as well as where does Oltenia end and Wallachia begin?). Dahn 12:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Anonimu

Thank you very much for your input regarding the comments and distruption of this user. I don't know WP rules well enough to qualify "Dogs beg". To me it is obviously uncivilized to say the least, and in real life I would simply not talk to such a person again. What I can do with it on WP, is to record it, and share it if that user is being regarded more closely into. An admin must take action, unfortunately the most I can do is to provide this info to the admins. :Dc76 09:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About Panonian

OK. I will have a look at the page after protection is over. However, I really dont know what to do with Panonian. It seems to me he lives in Wikipedia, and his life mission is the propagation of Serbian ultra-nationalism. I am busy in real life and have no time for edit wars. Perhaps we should coordinate our steps with those Romanian, Bulgarian and Croatian users you mentioned. --Koppany 14:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I did some corrections of "his" pages and I am sure he will start a revert war again. Could you please watch my recent edits? Thank you. --Koppany 13:05, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
You are right. But the behavior and style of this guy makes me upset. Should we tolerate everything and leave that always he win, because he is more intransingent? --Koppany 10:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Ты хорошо понимаешь по-русски? Если нам надо разговаривать и планировать частно, может быть на этом языке можно? (if you don't understand Russian that well it's no problem, but tell me if you do.)K. Lásztocska 18:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Не волнуйся, это не проблема. It's probably better to stick to English anyway--communicating too much in a foreign language looks suspicious. :) K. Lásztocska 19:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice work on Greater Hungary! Looks like our friend Pani might not be a lost cause after all. ;-) I can't believe the three of us actually managed to agree on something instead of just kicking each other in the face as usual...let's hope it's the beginning of a new era and not just a fluke...K. Lásztocska 02:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I love that movie!! I came across it quite by chance a few months ago while aimlessly flipping through the TV channels, I suddenly saw what looked like a pretty funny movie, and was even more intrigued when I realized they were speaking Serbian and Romani. It was the best movie I'd seen in a long time! I really want to see some more of Kusturica's films now--although I read in the New York Times just yesterday that his latest project is directing an opera. (!)

Did you hear that Panonian has to have surgery?! I knew he was sick but I didn't realize it was anything so serious. I feel awful for him, and I just want to forget about all the stupid political fights we've had. :-( Once he gets better the three of us should have a Wiki-film festival (i.e. all of us watch a lot of Kusturica and then write articles about all his movies.) It beats arguing about Hungarian irredentists...K. Lásztocska 15:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

No need to apologize--I originally did think you were quoting Casablanca, since I forgot about the guy in Black Cat, White Cat who's obsessed with that movie. ;-) K. Lásztocska 15:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Emberileg őszintén sajnálom, hogy rác testvérünk beteg, felebaráti gesztusként ki is fejeztem neki jókívánságaimat anyanyelvén is, de amit továbbra is művel az elképesztő. Most a Vajdaság története cikken akadtam ki a régebbiek közül. Gyakorlatilag ő ural minden délvidéki vonatkozású topikot, s tengernyi ideje lévén lehetetlen szerkesztéseit javítani, merevsége pedig minden érdemi vitát lehetetlenné tesz. Láttam, hogy egy vitalapon kitiltását javasoltad. Nehéz szívvel bár, de támogatom a dolgot, de fogalmam sincs, hogy történik az ilyesmi. --Koppany 19:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

KIDB, I know what you mean. I don't really know what to think about him--on the one hand, he's a tireless contributor, an excellent mapmaker, and certainly knows a lot about Serbia. On the other hand, he's usually a belligerent, unyielding, bad-faith-assuming article-tyrant who thinks the entire world is out to get him and everyone's an ultranationalist. (He once called me a nationalist (in a bad sense) to another editor behind my back before he had ever met me, just on the basis of two referenced sentences I wrote about ethnic tensions in Vojvodina, and then just last week he almost slandered me to one of my (non-Hungarian) friends over a similar issue.)But then there's that unexpected compromise on Greater Hungary--even if he changed parts of it afterward, there was that glimmer of hope--honestly, you guys have no idea how badly I want to stop these endless fights with him.

I always try to be optimistic (some would say naive) about people and I still like to think that he's a good guy at heart, just with a bad temper and some weird political views, and that someday we can learn to work together, find some common ground, even possibly get along almost like friends. I've hardly been an angel to him or anything, but I've certainly tried making some gestures of goodwill--especially the other day when I found out he was sick and needed surgery, I honestly felt terrible for him, and I sincerely meant every word of that message I left on his talk page: the sympathy, the good wishes, the desire to put old differences behind us and start anew as friends. Koppany did the same, even writing a bit in Serbian (I think he already mentioned that in his message above, but I'm too tired right now to read Hungarian.) And our Serbian friend's response? It was like he didn't even notice...probably tomorrow he'll be back to insulting us and calling us ultranationalist trolls again, just like always. He seems like such an unhappy person...(I mean, who knows what he's had to go through with all the wars in the Balkans recently), but I'm beginning to realize that there's probably nothing any of us can do to reach him and get along with him--he will just refuse to listen. Good God, but why?! All on account of our nationality?? (and for heaven's sake, I'm more of an American than an "authentic" Hungarian...I'm not even of full-blood Magyar ancestry, so why is he still so paranoid about me??) You can probably tell that this problem is tormenting me--I desperately don't want to give up on him, I still want to believe that somewhere inside that angry-Serb-fighter exterior is that hardworking mapmaker, the one who's still a proud Serbian but can work with people from other countries, and who doesn't just push people aside if they come to him with offers of friendship.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if maybe his paranoia and belligerence is because of things he saw in the Balkan wars--back when anyone of a different ethnicity probably would want to kill you, when you had to assume that everyone was a potential enemy--I don't know how anyone survived things like the Balkan wars with their sanity intact! Of course, the thought that maybe he's so angry and rude because of some terrible tragedy in the war just makes me want even more to reach out to him and be his friend (he doesn't really have any friends here, does he?), if he's so unhappy, I wish I could help somehow--but I know that he will just think I have some sinister ulterior motive and he'll throw me aside again and again. I really don't know what to do!!

Sorry for all the drama btw...you have to get used to it with me...;-)K. Lásztocska 01:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

OK--I'll take the Trianon article, and I'll also watch Serbia and Vojvodina just in case somebody decides to take advantage of our most prominent Serb's absence and vandalizes those pages (and everyone thinks all Serbs are war criminals anyway, so those pages are probably easy targets to begin with.) Poor Pani. Let's both do our best to be nice to him when he gets back. K. Lásztocska 12:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I permanently watch almost all of "his" articles that have any relation to Hungary. However, I am also busy in real life. --Koppany 18:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Traditional Székely Land

Is this the map of the medieval Szekely seats? --Olahus 21:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Your map is quite good, but let me mention please Aranyosszék. I know it was an exclave far enough from the other seats, but maybe in a larger map you can mark it. Thank you. --Koppany 22:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I would like to, unfortunately I make my maps with a simple MS Paint programme and I was not able to include it. --KIDB 05:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
OK. Thanks anyway. --Koppany 17:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

KIDB, the map should be renamed in "The Szekey seats". It should be also mentioned the period of those borders, because during the time, some changes occured. For example: by the middle of the 18.th century, the Habsburg Empire annexed from the Moldovan Principality the upper Valley of the river Bicaz (Békás). Only after this time, the upper valley of this river (that includes the northeastern part of the actual county Harghita and the western part of the county Neamţ) came unter szekely control (almost all of those localities are even today populated mostly by romanians, see ethnic map). This was also the case of the village Gyimesbükk populated by Csangos, not Szekelys.

Here is a map of Transylvania, Moldova and Walachia in the IV-VI.th centuries: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4425/img019micrz0.jpg

Here is a fragment of that map. I highlighted the szekely seats. http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4724/szekjj4.jpg

As you can see, the teritory between Csik and Haromszek belonged directly to Alba (Gyulafehervar) and not to a Szekely seat, though it was populated entirely by szekelys.

KIBD, your map is wrong. You must:

  1. rename it into: "The Szekely seats during the 18th and 19th centuries".
  2. exclude the teritory between Csik and Haromszek, that never belonged to any szekely seat.
  3. include Aranyosszek (you can include it as a secondary map in the corner of the alredy existing map.

So, I hope you understand what I mean. Please excuse my very bad english. Have a nice day. --Olahus 09:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. Now I don't have time and energy to draw a new a larger map including Aranyosszék, however I would like to. Maybe later. This map anyway provides more accurate information than the previous ones. Actually I made it after a remark of Dahn saying that most Romanians think Székely Land is East of Targu Mures. I hope it helps. I don't think it should be renamed to Székely Seats because the expression Székely Land already existed in the 19th century and meant roughly the area in my map (+Aranyosszék). And actually the enclave officially belonging to Felső-Fehér County was also discussed as part of Székely Land in contemporary literature. --KIDB 13:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rjecina's proposal

Please read Croatian user, Rejecina's message on my talk page. He also had problems with Panonian. What do you think about his proposal? Thanks. --Koppany 18:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

What you think it will be possible to find other users which are interested in to play editorial policy for history of south and eastern Europe. Do you know somebody ? --Rjecina 21:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I am happy that you have find so many people. My thinking is that you write english better of me so... Can you please create page on wiki page similar to User:Rjecina/Editorial policy for history of east and south Europe if you agree with what I have writen. Please change my bad english. When we solve that I will start to hunt for our members from ex Yugoslavia, Bulgaria... I will be on wiki next 8 hours and then I am gone until 11.07. --Rjecina 22:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I will find users from ex Yugoslavia for this project (I have few) but before starting marketing of this project we need to have central page (article) where we all can come along. It is bad that this article is on user page (like today). Can you please know/find solution where we can put this article and create our symbol. This symbol will need to be something like

HIBESE This user is member of Editorial history board for east and south Europe.

What you think about that ? --Rjecina 6:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Szetey

Thanks very much for the link! I think it's great news that this is happening in Hungary, alongside the Free Democrats' proposal to legalise civil unions for same-sex couples. If I have time, I will write an article about this. Cheers, Ronline ✉ 14:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I have written the article at Gábor Szetey, but I haven't been able to find any more English-language sources on his professional life, which I think should form an important part of the article as well. I should really get around to learning Hungarian - I love how it sounds, but I haven't been able to learn anything aside from the "Transylvanian Hungarian vocabulary" which most Romanians from ethnically-mixed areas know (like bundás kenyér, which I only yesterday found out had a Romanian translation; we use a lot of Hungarian words in the family).
I thought Szetey's coming out speech was really inspring, not only with regard to homosexuality but also to tolerance in general: "When we can be proud of being Hungarian, Romanian, Jewish, Catholic, Gay or Straight... If we can be proud of our differences, we will be proud of our similarities." I think it's that sort of approach that we need more of when we're settling disputes at Wikipedia! I thought Demszky's declarations were very well said, as well. If only we could have these sort of politicians in Romania :) I would also like to work on the Civil unions in Hungary article, to update it with the new declarations made by the Free Democrats and Gyurcsány. All the best, Ronline ✉ 02:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, if Demszky's comments were made for political gain, then I think that's an even better sign, because in this part of the world it's more frequent that chauvinism and prejudice are used to gain political capital (e.g. Poland, Latvia). On the subject of Demszky - what is the overall perception of him in terms of the effects of his tenure on Budapest? I'm asking because I'm interested in issues of urban management and the city as system; for a person to stay as mayor for that long, he must have "added some value". Ronline ✉ 10:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed Demszky is the strangest political phenomenon in Hungary. Everbody is very disappointed with him, the city is dirty and ugly, he is impotent and arrogant but he always wins because Fidesz every time manages to find a more horrible candidant :) Zello 02:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion about false map

If you want to see something interesting you must to look article Borders before and after Yugoslavia, PANONIAN map of Serbia in 1918 and our discussion about this map. Discussion is on discussion page of article for which I have given you link. In last week I am fighting with PANONIAN that this fantasy map in which even Pecs and Timisoara are Serbian territory be deleted on wiki. ---Rjecina 19:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] my editor review

Thanks for your comments! I was beginning to give up hope that anyone would bother to review me. ;-) FYI you are supposed to write the comments right there on the content page for the editor review, not the talk page (I moved it for you.) I appreciate the compliments very much; do you have any criticism or things you think I need to improve at? (be honest...) ;-) Thanks again, and it's good to see you back! K. Lásztocska Review me? 18:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)