Talk:Kick

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[edit] This Page Needs a Lot of help

In fact, all of the pages involving strikes, such as punches, kicks, and the Strike article itself needs to be cleaned up. There's a lot of misinformation without citing and signs of self-promotion of particular martial arts styles. I've tried to clean it up a bit, but I don't have the patience at the moment to finish the job. DRaGZ 08:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This article has many problems, especially on a fundamental, conceptual level regarding the uses of the kicks. I will try to get around to making it more informed. (cameraoli)

Isn't there a bit too much emphasis on kicks in martial arts? - Redmess 19:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)



[edit] Merge Reverse roundhouse kick back into article

There seems to be a bit of confusion regarding what the actual definition of a reverse roundhouse kick actually is and it has effected a few other pages. Because of the little amount of information on that page and in the section on this kick page, I think that it would be best to merge the reverse roundhouse kick back into the kick article where it can be better solidified. This is by no means a permanent solution, just a solution until there is more concrete information on a reverse roundhouse kick. Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 18:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

Further discussion has also taken place on Talk:Reverse roundhouse kick#merge (Guyinblack25 17:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC))
After much discussion and misunderstanding on my part, I agree. It would be better to clean up the kick section and have legitimate martial artists police the sections. I would be happy to submit my 1st and 2nd degree black belt certificates for verification. Spewgilist 20:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese?

This article mentions things in Japanese and Korean, but what about Chinese, as it is also the country alot of people associate with martial arts. 70.55.201.213 09:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] more examples (pictures or videos) of side kicks please

I really need help with my side kick and I'd like to see a variety of pictures/videos on here of different styles doing side kicks. I know there is a good amount of variety between styles. Tkjazzer 01:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm

This article seems to have been taken over by modern martial arts enthusiasts, i'm sure throughout history man must have and will always use kicks unorthodoxly in countless do-or-die situations. --AnYoNe! 20:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Side kick brilliantly countered by..."

It says reverse kick, but many different styles use the term for different kicks and the page has no listing for a simple reverse kick. This needs to be clarified.

And yeah, it seems like alot of the info is biased, I tried cleaning it up some too--Hakageryu 03:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

    • reverse kick is kicking from the back leg, front leg kick is done with the foot that's forward. In karate, a simple reverse kick would be called a front kick, in muay thai, it would be called a thrust kick. --CNGK april 30, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.92.122.10 (talk) 17:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Soccer.

This page only references martial arts and kicking. What about soccer and american football. THese things have kicking. Include them, or you will feel awful about your lack of information about kicking. I think kicking is great, go kicking, let's make kicking the best page ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.143.96 (talk) 03:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

They are covered in Kick (football) which is listed on the disambiguation page linked at the top. --Nate1481( t/c) 11:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "back kick" animation is wrong

In my opinion (I am a taekwondo instructor) the animation of this Brennan-guy using a "back kick" pretty clearly shows what is here called a "reverse side kick" (I know it as mom dollyo yap chagi, or parryo yap chagi), a kick which is also listed in this article, but below the back kick. I say this because he is very clearly completing the kick with his side, not his back, facing the opponent, and his kicking knee is clearly not even close to his other leg. This looks like a kind of "loose" (with regards to the gap between his legs) turning side kick to me. In taekwondo we use the "back kick" (dwit chagi) a lot, in fact it's one of taekwondo's claims to fame, so I believe I know what I'm talking about here. In a pure dwit chagi your kicking foot passes the leg you are standing on with just a tiny gap to spare (in fact it is quite possible to kick the foot you are standing on, something I have done many times over the years), and you don't turn all the way around (you look over your shoulder with your back to the opponent as the kick hits). This means the knee on your kicking leg can't fly way up away from the leg you are standing on either, it stays close. This makes the kick very fast (in fact too fast for most, as it's tricky to aim), and stronger than the side kick version, although both have their strengths and weaknesses. Anyway, the animation very clearly does not show this. It shows what looks like a karate guy throwing a wide turning side kick, which I think is exactly what it is. I suggest either the text or the animation be changed, as this is misleading. Ravstein 06:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

My only comment it I know that different styles use different names for the same kick, so it would need to be based on what the style demonstrating called it--Nate1481( t/c) 11:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that in terms of Tae Kwon Do, that is definitely a "back side kick" or "back turning side kick", not a true "back kick". Basically, he makes about a 3/4 turn while throwing the kick instead of about a 1/2 turn, and the foot comes out as it would in a side kick, instead of more vertical. As to the relative power of the two kicks, the back kick is indeed a very powerful kick; but the turning adds to the power of this side kick. I'd say they are both very powerful, and differences would depend largely on the person doing them. Omnedon (talk) 11:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
In my karate program, we'd call that a spinning side kick. (horizontal foot = side kick; vertical foot with toes downward = back kick). Nevertheless, no one here is right or wrong, terminology is always style-specific. What we need to do here, in my opinion, is begin by clearly defining the anatomical positions of the various kicks without naming the kick, then discuss (using references!) what various major martial arts would call that kick. This comment applies to the next section, also. Bradford44 (talk) 14:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, we all seem to agree here. Since the text describing the two kicks in the article make sense, and the animation clearly shows what in the article is dubbed "reverse side kick", I am going to change the animation text. I'm not trying to argue which style or kick is better here, but we seem to have a textual clarification now with regards to the two different kicks, so I am going to make sure the image matches the description we've given. Ravstein 00:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to mention on a side note that I agree that we should focus on the human body as providing classification of different kicks, rather than styles providing them. What I mean by that is that even though you can use many different names for a roundhouse kick (I would for instance feel more comfortable right now writing "dollyo chagi"), and you can roundhouse kick in different ways (large motion vs. knee straight up in front, shin vs. some part of the foot, etc.), it's all basically the same kind of thing as far as where the foot is thrown by the human body. I'll give a sugggestion under a new header. Ravstein 00:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How kicks are viewed in taekwondo

There might be several places in the article this goes for, but I just noticed this one now, so this will be a start for this discussion theme. According to the article: "In taekwondo, the front kick is regarded a push kick, a very powerful kick that pushes the opponent away or onto the ground, as well as a rapid strike on the opponent's groin or chin." Now, I've been teaching taekwondo professionally for more than 6 years, and to me that just looks wrong. We have a push kick, that's true, in fact you could say we have at least a couple (counting the side kick variant). However, that has a seperate name. At least in all the terminology I have come across, the push kick is called "mira chagi". And there is a clear distinction between mira chagi and ap chagi, simply because the kicks are executed and used differently. Ap chagi is a front kick like the common one in karate. You may strike upwards with the instep, or forward (or upwards, if aiming high) with the front base of the foot (toes lifted). But it is definately a kick, not a push. Anyone disagree? Ravstein 06:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravstein (talk • contribs)

For Taekwondo specific is I assume correct, (not an art I've studied) the problem comes in generalising if you can correct bits that refer specifically to TKD that would be a great help, especially if you could reference them to a book on technique as the article is currently severely lacking in sources. --Nate1481( t/c) 11:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, in my experience, "ap chagi" is usually executed as a snap kick. A push kick, to me, involves bringing up the heel and pushing it forward; one can break with it, especially concrete, but it doesn't have "snap". Omnedon (talk) 11:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
To me, there is a difference between a front snap kick, (strike with the ball, upward angle), and a front thrust kick (knee comes up first, angle is forward, and the strike is with the ball or the heel). Also, I agree with Omnedon that "front kick" (in any language) usually refers to the snap variation. I think this is in virtue of the fact that it is usually taught as the primary variation, so people use the simplest term for it, not because the term "ap chagi" or "mae geri" or whatever actually carries any connotation of one version or the other. Bradford44 (talk) 14:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Roundhouse kick

I see no reason for the roundhouse kick to be in the advanced kicks section. Actually, I'm not sure I agree on most of the entries in the "advanced kicks" category being there, or there being an "advanced kicks" classification to begin with, but that's another story.... Roundhouse kick is a basic kick if there ever was one, so I'm going to move it up one section if there are no objections. Ravstein 01:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for restructure and guidelines for the kick section - please read

I think most will agree that this is a mess of an article. You might be able to gain something from reading it, but it can easily leave you more confused than you were coming in, and you might even be misinformed. I think the reason for this is mostly that we all seem to have no clear idea of exactly what to write here, or how to structure the page.

My suggestion is thus:

We should make this a sort of index for kicks, rather than a concoction of random sentiments and more or less controversial details. We might perhaps begin it with a short paragraph or two about kicks in general. "A kick is any thrusting of the leg below the knee to some direction other than down. It is a common form of attack in many martial arts and martial sports, particularly taekwondo, capoira," yada-yada-yada, that stuff. Something like what we have here now, which we may be able to have as basis. Then we should give a list of (rough) kicking motions such as "roundhouse kick", describing them briefly and not going into details about application, styles etc.. As tempting as it may be for us all to use our own style's terminology, we should stick to the language of this wikipedia, namely english (*horrors*). That is: no ap chagi or mae geri, only "front kick". This also avoids the problem of the same kick having many names in each language, which seem to come from the koreans and japanese not agreeing any more on for example whether to call it "spinning", "reverse", "backside" etc. than we are. We may include pictures and animations to show the kicks, but nothing too style specific.

Then we may _link_ to seperate pages for each kick on wikipedia. For example, I started an article on "front kick" a couple of years or so ago. That article needs a lot of work too, but having such a structure to work with is much better than the messy duality we have now. The seperate kick pages should contain a textbox to the right, listing the names for the kick in various languages (this is where we should put ap chagi and mae geri). They should contain some general info perhaps, such as notes on the difficulty level of the kick, historical development, widespread usage, common applications, general pros and cons etc.. And then headings for _each_seperate_style_, with the particular details and special application and variation notes we seem to all wish to share. If, in time, the individual specific kick pages grow large enough, we might even make the style specific notes on each kick seperate pages, and link to them from the page dedicated to the particular kick, but that's into the future.

So my proposed hierarchy would be thus: Kick (the page this is a discussion for) -> Individual kick pages (front kick, roundhouse kick etc.) -> Only if in time the pages grow large enough: Style specific pages for each of the kicks (front kick in taekwondo, front kick in karate etc.)

I think this will make the articles much, much better. And since we will know what our mission is when authoring, the pages may grow faster and more constructively.

I know this has been done somewhat, but I think we should make it a general guideline for the structure of this article, and move the style specific stuff away from the main kick page, and into seperate headings on the specific kick pages.

We can also make redirects to the specific kick pages, like I just did for "ap chagi" to "front kick".

I also think we should keep in mind that we are trying to categorise kicks in the list of kicks here, not teaching "tricks". By that I mean we should focus on the main features of the human body (its turning, the direction the impact is in, etc.), and also seperate things such as the section on "Multiple kick" and "Flying kicks" from the list of kicks (we can keep those in some form of course, but they are not kicks in themselves. "Multiple kick" might perhaps be worthy of a place in the introduction, or in a seperate header, and "Flying kicks" might perhaps be worthy of a seperate list on this page).

There is a lot of interesting material here, but we should agree on how to place it. It would be nice to get some comments on this. If there is a consesus, or if nobody seems to mind or bother to comment, I will begin moving stuff around, creating kick-specific pages etc., as this has already been initiated for some kicks. Ravstein 03:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravstein (talk • contribs)

I agree (almost) completely. Despite the "almost", I think you should have at it and starting chopping away. Two things I'd like to mention specifically, though, is about the names of various kicks, regarding which you have quite rightly identified a problem - the same kick has different English names depending on style. Nevertheless, there is no way around identifying them in some manner, so I just want to suggest that we make sources mandatory for anything other than the most basic naming of any given kick (but I don't necessarily see anything wrong with little notes here and there saying stuff like, "some styles also call this kick 'x', and others call it 'y'," as long as there are references included). Also, as you said, it would be good to stick to basic categories of kicks, rather than have subsections in this article dedicated to highly specialized kicks. My only other objection is to the idea of having separate "front kick" articles for each style of martial arts that practice it. That might be overkill, my opinion is that the Front kick article is sufficient to cover all variations of kicks called "front kick" by any style. However, don't let those objections slow you down. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't start implementing your suggestions immediately; the rest of the details can be ironed out as we go along. Bradford44 13:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This page is wrong ...

This page is wrong on more than one issue and is not written like a proper entry. "Some arts do not utilize kicks at all, such as judo and boxing." This comment is incorrect, although no kicks are used the legs are vital to winning a boxing match. Someone else needs to rewrite this entire thing. 2/18/08 Jesse —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.169.195.239 (talk • contribs) 14:50:21, 2008-02-18

No one is saying boxing or Judo foot work isn't important, but you are explicitly not allowed to kick. Martial arts footwork would be a different article. --Nate1481(t/c) 13:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

What about footsweep or kanzetsu geri (stomp kick)? Judo-ka use these foot techniques for take downs. I don't see how a butterfly kick has any less martial application than an ashi barai... One could argue that any technique in which the practitioner takes both feet of the ground has questionable defensive value. CNGK 30apr08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.92.122.10 (talk) 17:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)