Talk:Kiai

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[edit] Kiai and Aiki

I don't think that an article about kiai can be complete without reference to aiki. I'm going to organise my thoughts here and solicit feedback before adding to the article.

Frederick John Lovret notes, "One should note that ai, the conjunctive stem of the verb au, does not mean "to join" in this case: when used in the second position of a compound word, ai becomes an emphatic marker. Kiai, therefore, should be translated as "spirit!", not "spirit-joined".[1]" [My poor knowledge of the Japanese language does not allow me to judge whether this is correct.] However, care must be taken about the absolute meanings of words when discussing concepts derived from other cultures and expressed in different languages. This is particularly true when the words we use today have been derived from symbols, in this case Chinese and Japanese kanji, which represent ideas rather than literal translations of the components. Historical use of a term can influence meanings and be passed down by those wishing to illustrate ideas with the best word or phrase available to them. In this way, there may be a divergence of the meaning between arts or schools within the same art.

Kiai and aiki use the same kanji and can be thought of as the inner and the outer aspect of the same principle. [2] Some martial arts schools use the term intechangeably, however it may be useful to draw the following distinction.

A) Kiai - relates to the manifestation, emission or projection of ones own energy (internal strength)

B) Aiki - relates to the merging of one's energy with the energy emitted from an external source (blending)

Support for A) In a ki-society [3] article [4] Matthias Rezac refers to 'keeping one point' (awarness/using the tan tien) as kiai. Which is in accordance with A above.

Prof. Kufferath is reported to have said "one should practice it from the "Hara" or lower region. Using the throat only is of no use at all. Kiai is an outpouring of a person's positive energy (Ki)." From http://www.kodenkan.com/success.html

http://www.kodenkan.com/sktrib.html there is a reference to Kiai as 'internal strength'.

The physical manifestation of energy is most easily observed in martial arts. Most people are familiar with kiai as the loud shout emitted by various martial artists. This sound can be used to focus the mind and breath in a technique, i.e. physical kiai. There are multiple factors which influence effective kiai, for example you should have good postural alignment to transmit ki effectively.

Kiai can be silent[5], [6] it is the coordination of breathing with the physical activity which is important. This may be more accurately referred to as kokyu power. Kokyu and kiai are sometimes used interchangeably. The term kokyu is most often translated as breath power in English. Kokyu power, is essentially the same as Chinese jin. "Breath" and "timing" certainly come into the usage of kokyu power, but it is the abilty to co-rdinate breathing with the execution of a jin movement which is important. A relaxed and powerful exhalation can add power to movement. A sound is just an audiable indication of good kiai (aligned body structure, focused intent, and good breathing). It's not the sound that is important.

For additional reading about the Kiai, see the following books: The Fighting Spirit of Japan by E.J. Harrison (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0879511540/8120-0545802-347636) and Living the Martial Way (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637763/thedanzanryujuju)by Forrest Morgan.

Suppport for B) If we accept the useage above then in an aikido technique, there is an interplay of aiki and kiai. The reciever of the attack uses kiai to postion themselves (posture) relative to the attacker, uses aiki in the intial meeting of the force, and to guide the attaker through the technique, and uses their kiai in the final execution of the techniqe. Note that the 'positioning' here may be a subtle realignment of the body and is not necessarily a full tai sabaki move.

Aiki is harmony with an attacker's energy -- kiai is the flip side of that: harmony with our own, internal energy. Thus, kiai consists of all parts of the body being unified and directed to one intent. "Aiki", ultimately has to do with a very good ability to manipulate kokyu upon contact... you blend your ki with the attacker’s ki instantaneously

As an aside, I'd like to see a wiki page for Aiki - maybe I'll start one if I'm feeling brave one day.

[edit] Perspectives from different arts

I look forward to comments on the above... Womble bee 14:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC) (last updated Womble bee 12:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)))

One more look at the Kiai, this time Kiai "master" vs MMA. Fighting by projecting inner energy, right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I --Pitdog 00:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The article was an itch I had to scratch, so I have significantly updated it today. Womble bee 15:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ?

For some reason I can't get the kanji (characters) for "kiai" to appear properly. Maybe it's just me.

[edit] Text from "Votes for deletion"

Begin moved text

  • KiAi - this is a dictionary definition. Kingturtle 04:29, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • - Move to Wiktionary - Marshman 04:43, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • mv to appropriate martial arts article; Copy to Wiktionary; then delete JDR
    • With some fleshing out, this could make a good article. Do most martial artists in fact say kiai? Why that particular yell? How does yelling help them "focus?" Some references to kiai in motion pictures, cartoons? (Why the odd capitalization in the title? Is this an old CamelCase article?) -- Smerdis of Tlön 19:47, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • If the content is moved to another article, keep as redirect to that article to preserve the history. -- Oliver P. 00:39, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • My instructor always used "Kai" in writing... is there one correct transliteration? -- Pakaran 01:38, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

End moved text

I didn't delete the article because one person suggested merging (which doesn't require deletion), and another suggested that it could become an article. This can be resolved in the usual wiki way... -- Oliver P. 08:19, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Kiai sounds

This probably should go into the article text in some manner, but chuffed if I know how. Someone in the comments for deletion asked if the word used was the actual sound. The short answer is "sometimes." The way I was trained, a kiai could be any sound which helped magnify your power. ^_^ Not sure how to describe the sounds, but it was everywhere from a gutteral grunt to a stylized "ee-sah" by one of my instructors, to the cat-yowlish sound that Bruce Lee used to make. The primary points of a good kiai is that it expells air rapidly (helps prevent getting winded when struck), startles the enemy, and focusses your efforts. Ideally, it also should not strain your voice in any manner and it should be comfortable to utter. Note that some schools require a particular sound. Also note that it's also possible to acquire all of the effects except startling the enemy by simply expelling the air, resulting in the "silent kiai," much more handy when playing golf with friends. Distinct sounds I've run into (probably badly described):

  • Kee-ya
  • Hi-yah (just like the sterotypical movie chop sound)
  • Ee-sah
  • Yah
  • Hee
  • Die (I used this one for a while. ^_^ It worked in all the technical manners and boy did it startle people...)
  • Yosh (I actually think this comes from a Japanese utterance when one is excited)

Fuzzy

  • grumble* Ok, I tried to add this and a bunch of other stuff, but after writing 4 solid paragraphs, FireFox crashed and, silly me, I wasn't editting the text in another window. To be updated later when I'm less grumbly. Fuzzy 07:39, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

also 'ay' and 'toh' from some sword schools Focomoso 20:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, traditional Japanese kiai are as follows (using Hepburn-style romanization, e.g. "e" = "ey")
  • E
  • Ei
  • Ie
  • Ya
  • To
These are typically "capped" with a mostly devoiced "p" sound ("pu", but again without much of the vowel - like desu) to avoid draining one's entire breath reserve.
I've never heard of "HIIII-YA!" or "KIAI!" as an actual kiai.
Anyway, I don't think it's a good idea to try to list all the kiai sounds that are commonly made in the article. Perhaps one or two as examples. --GenkiNeko 00:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
(Note: He have never heard of "HIII-YA!" or "KIAI!" as an actual kiai sound. However, there is a brazilian kung-fu style, called Tao T'ien Ti - The Way of Infinite -, that uses these sounds as a powerful kiaijutsu. His Gran-Master, Jorge Callado, shown an amazing jutsu where his cry can paralyze a human target for a second)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.29.65.6 (talk • contribs)

[edit] "Deadly Kiai"

Is there any basis for this outside of legend and fiction? I've heard people say it's possible (usually stating it as being able to "stun" small animals. I feel like we ought to mention it as a legendary aspect, a goal, unless there's proof somewhere that someone has actually done it. *wry grin* Maybe it's time to write back in those four paragraphs I lost over a year ago... -Fuzzy 03:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Killing with sound..

I have removed the following paragraph because it seems not based on any scientific facts, and sounds very implausible. A loud cry directly to the ear might permanently damage hearing, but "seriously damage one's organs"? Considering that even the whole hydrophonic shock stuff by supersonic ammo was found to be exaggerated, I simply can't leave this unchanged. tiktak 2005-11-03

"There are also martial artists who can use kiai as a weapon.
The sound waves of your voice go straight through someone's body.
Since the human body is almost completely made out of water and since sound waves easily go through 
water(like electricity goes through water)you can seriously damage one's organs with this technique."

[edit] Not a Stub

I don't think this article is a stub. Should the tag be removed? - Jimmy C. 15:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original research doesn't belong in articles, so I thought I'd put it here.

I just got back from an aikido class on kiai taught by my father, who is 4th dan. He told us a story about training in Japan in 1993 during an international, four-week seminar. At one point, the sensei did a demonstration where he called up each of his own students and had them attack him. Each time, the students were struck down without being touched, solely through the sensei's use of kiai. My father told us then, "so I, like a typical Westerner, thought, 'ok, this is probably at least a little bit bullshit. They're his students, they must just know right when to fall." At the end of that class of the seminar, one student asked a question about kiai. The sensei said that kiai would be covered much more in-depth in a later class. However, he thought it would be best for each of the students to experience kiai, first. So one at a time, they yeach went up and attacked the sensei. My dad personally attacked the sensei, and was promptly knocked flat on his back by the power of the yell.

Here I would like to point out that kiai is 'not' a physical attack, in the sense of having sound waves causing damage. I'm inclined to think that the above quoted text that was removed was vandalism. Kiai by itself, not used with a technique or attack, but just by itself, is purely a psychological attack. It is a very primal thing, affecting something in your opponents hindbrain.

Unfortunately, kiai is used rather little in the style of aikido I study, as it is very difficult to get right (anything else is just yelling). As a result, I know little about it, and will probably continute to know very little for a great many years. Sadly, anything I learn in class can't go into the article because it also counts as original research =\ The Taped Crusader 16:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Just thought that I'd provide some more support for this idea. I currently study Kokikai Aikido under Bannister Sensei (Godan) and while Kiai is not a required part of the technique, I have personally been thrown by Bannister without being touched and have been knocked on my ass at least once by his kiai. This shouldn't imply that I'm special. He does it to all of his students. While I guess that this might qualify as "original research" it is sufficiently easy to witness (spend enough time in enough dojos) that perhaps it can be "verified common knowledge" (as I like to think of it. GulDan 02:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

you may be interested in this video. 192.223.226.6 17:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
LOL --81.98.245.212 (talk) 23:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The art of shouting

Can we please come up with a translation of 'kiaijutsu' that doesn't sound quite so silly? -Toptomcat 19:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree this definition is silly, and I would like to re-organise the whole article. Kiaijustsu shoud be the art of using kiai which is tautological, but can be forgiven if kiai is properly defined. I'll attend to this when I get round to a substantial edit of the article. Womble bee 12:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the article is on the verge of becoming a B class - the re-write made all the difference. A picture of some sort or a kanji graphic. I changed the links embedded in the text to the proper format (ie references) and did a bit of clean-up but I think one more round of copyedit is necessary (or not).Peter Rehse 06:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Peter for properly referencing the article. I'll note how this is done for future articles. Womble bee 09:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added a picture to the kiai/aiki section - borrowed from the Aikido article, but I can't find anything suitable for the opening section. Womble bee 12:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 11/22/2006 Assessment

Although I'm a bit shy about doing so, I decided to assess this article. I think it's definitely now in the "B" orbit. It still needs much work, and has some clear gaps, but it's no longer merely "start" class. I will try to provide a few more comments later (I have to run at the moment), and hopefully contribute some myself. Good job, whoever rewrote it! Definitely better! --GenkiNeko 00:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

I've reinstated the image, as the article definitely needs one. However I added some text to explain why it is there. If anyone has a better image then feel free to change it 129.234.4.76

[edit] Master Ryukerin

Can anyone knowledgeable in Kiai verifyif Master Ryukerin is really a Kiai expert? If this question in not appropriate here please delete at will. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpUgFNO13Rs&mode=related&search= 75.34.84.166 02:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)