Talk:Ki-o-rahi

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[edit] References

Well it does exist to some extent nzherald , education gazette . The question seems to be did it exist more than say 20 years ago, let alone a 100 or 150. - SimonLyall 01:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Here are some links that discuss the history of the game. The second says "The source for The Legend of Rahi is from George Barrett..."

Pity if it isn't true, as it casts a totally different light on the Thomas Arnold "Handball Incident" view of the origin of Rugby as an exemplar of Muscular Christianity, mentioned in the Flashman books and many other places. Please don't delete it without some consideration!

http://hubpages.com/hub/Ki-o-Rahi

http://history-nz.org/kiorahi.html

Ian Holmes, August 4 2007

We are aware of the references cited, however the "Legend of Rahi" appears to be completely made up and the history of the game probably is as well. - SimonLyall 10:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attempt to manufacture references?

The author of this page inserted a reference to Elsdon Best's Games and Pastimes of the Māori. I have a copy of the book and there are no references in it to Ki-o-rahi or to support any of the statements in this article that he indicated were supported by Best. If page numbers are supplied to contradict this, I will have another look. In fact the only balls Best mentions are poi balls. Also, the author used as a reference A TV4 show by Murray Deaker in 2000. Sorry that is not a verifiable source - we need something that we can look up to verify it - and given the attempt with the Best references, it looks very much like this is a deliberate attempt to mislead and perhaps the author should receive other warnings. TV4 is a music channel for one thing, and Murray Deaker - well, nuff said. Anyone can say 'I saw it on TV seven years ago' - why should we believe it if we have no way to confirm it Kahuroa 00:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

It looks like Kahuroa is setting himself up to be a gatekeeper of all Maori knowledge. I would sooner not have the work tainted by a neo-liberalist. His referring to words in 'authoritive dictionaries' is farcical because they do not include ancient terminology. Poi and ball are interchangeable terms, perhaps Kahuroa would be happier with 'paoro' :-). If you are wanting to look up contentious pastimes look no further than 'waka ama' and 'kapa haka' but that is another story. Most of the ki-o-rahi info comes from wananga, elders, uni based research etc I challenge you to find any historical records of waka ama and kapa haka ...good luck. Ma te wha. The game is doing ok here and internationally, I look forward to putting a moderate account on this site anew of ki-o-rahi and would sooner start from scratch, adding precise references that will be accepted.I go to Otago Uni where there are no people who have set themselves up as "know alls". There are also no books out on the subject that I have sourced which is in itself problematic. We play with a "ki" at uni, however I will be mindful that the "authoritive dictionaries" are void of ancient sports references and will lok up the appropriate modern term and use terms like "paoro". I will also ask kaumatua who have helped us to try and equate their terms with modern terminology. Which "authoritive" dictionary do you use? and if you look up the back of your Elsdon Best copy please let me know how many of those terms are in your dictionary please? Regards and apologies to you all for such sloppy work. Are magazines like Tu Mai and Mana magazine ok as references? and should I concentrate on the game itself rather than any history unknown by moderators here? I would like to write about 'tapu ae' also and wondered Kahuroa if you could kick that subject off, is it in your dictionary? It is another very old game, have you heard of it? PLease let me access data in your dictionary, we need to urgently notify students at Otago about restricting Maori usage to that "authoritive dictionary" only.One more question - Kahuroa, is Io part of Maori cosmology? (unsigned comment from User:Sossos)

Attacks on me are beside the point.The issue is whether or not there are any verifiable references to Ki-o-rahi as an ancient game, since that is what you have been claiming, and since Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia. No more, no less. Kahuroa 05:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Kahuroa, could you please answer the questions which I feel are relevant to the subject. Namely which dictionary are you referring to as "authoritive" (so that archaic terms are not used in future)and to enlighten us all at Otago Uni, do you know of the game 'tapu ae'(since tapu ae is closely associated to ki-o-rahi), how many of the words used by Best in his reference section of games are included in your "authoritive" dictionary and do you believe 'Io' is part of Maori cosmology? Please don't get all defensive, I simply question your expertise in the area of Maori traditional games. I can not see why you regard this as a rant & rave? The questions seem quite relevant & reasonable. I gather you come from Tainui, it must come as a shock then, you as 'expert', the interview Dean Nathan did at Turangawaewae regarding ki-o-rahi - simply phone him an check?

Sossos, can you please sign your articles. Also please address the problem of the article. If you have sources about the origin of the game especially reference older than 20 or 30 years or so then please post them. It appears that some dubious sources were used originally in the construction of this article. If the sport really is hundreds of years old then there should be at least some written evidence of this, old newspapers articles, complaints from teachers about children wasting their time playing it, stuff like that. - SimonLyall 10:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

FYI Sossos, there are lots of references to 'kapa haka', and 'waka ama' in 19th century books and dictionaries, and their histories are well known, and Io also appears in 19th century texts. For authoritative dictionaries, make that any dictionary or book written prior to the last 20 years. And yes, of course any words in Best and all books like that are in the good dictionaries, which is why it is so surprising that there are no entries anywhere for Ki-o-rahi if it is an old game. Kahuroa 04:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Great you are an expert in the traditional Maori sports field. It should be easy for you then to supply just 1 reference to "waka ama" or even "kapa haka" in 19th century literature - lets see it, otherwise you have fallen into the same trap as 'Patu Hohepa', masquerading as an expert in a field you are out of depth in. With research we have done at Otago, over 50% of the games Best lists do not show up in any dictionary source. They survive and are disseminated via wananga. So your assertion that "any words" do is confirmation that you are not up to it in this field. Researching Maori games is not as simple as pushing a few buttons, you need to have a wairua in this context and do some footwork (e.g. attend marae wananga on the subject).sossos

I have no connection with this whatsoever. But on Wikipedia there are the policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Personal knowledge is irrelevant. Published sources are all that counts. If they are being disseminated by Wananga and not reported in print, then that's unfortunate - but here "verifiability, not truth" is the criterion. Otherwise, it's no more than rumour: Aweawe ana nga korero i runga o Te Piware.Gordonofcartoon 04:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that is the dilemma here. The approach that Sossos is used to derives from another worldview. The founding policies that the Wikimedia Foundation requires of all the language Wikipedias make them unable to deal with other kinds of knowledge. I understand where Sossos is coming from, but I cannot change how Wikipedia works. Gordon, you took out the reference to that personal website, but I would like to put it back since it allows us to link to the rules of the game and the legend, as long as we note the disclaimer, without breaking the Wikipedia rules. That way I think we can do this subject a little more justice. And I have found a quote in Best that mentions the suppression of games, which adds weight to the idea that this game could be a survival, but unfortunately it doesnt mention Ki-o-rahi. Kahuroa 05:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Being in an unwritten tradition doesn't mean it's untrue, just that it's not the kind of information Wikipedia is set up to handle. As to that site, OK. It's always a difficult decision whether to link to a site that is partially reliable, but the rules page is certainly good. Gordonofcartoon 12:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Kia ora koutou! i do know something about this game. the term ki-o-rahi is a postmodern one having become popular post WWll. This is similar to the other pastimes mentioned such as waka ama which is also a pm term.Lots of revivals have employed pm terminology so the archaic terms are essential to any type of research. mauri ora, horritt (george B.)

[edit] ODT feature article added as ref

I added a website mentioned in todays ODT feature section, I don't think I can link the ODT article itself without a subscription. FYI University of Otago PE students are running a Ki-o-rahi tourney soon.Nankai 02:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)