Talk:Khojaly massacre/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 The Shelling of Stepanakert 2 about my reverting 3 my answer 4 Other international observers 5 PACE 6 Intl. reaction 7 Answer to the claim of the CIS burning Azeris villages 8 Links 9 resolutions 10 Slaughter 11 As an Azari I think there is a lot of Anti-Armenian POV 12 Tag 13 Inappropriate Tag? 14 Discussion 15 de Waal and Goltz quotes 16 Recent additions / edits 17 problems in all NK War cycle articles 18 New Category

The Shelling of Stepanakert

I'm quite surprised as to why the article makes little mention of Khojaly's military purpose. It was being used by the Azeris as a firing base against Stepanakert which was the entire reason as to why the attack against it began in the first place. The article comes off to sound like a premeditated attack by Armenian military authorities with the sole (unproven) intent of massacring the civilians in the town. I think this critical background information (and the numerous points raised by Fadix including the suspicious death of the man who videotaped the incident) about Khojaly must be mentioned at least in the first or second paragraph of the article.--MarshallBagramyan 22:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

With regard to shelling of Stepanakert, Khojaly was not any good for that purpose due to geography. If Khojaly had shelled Stepanakert, it would have been leveled to the ground by Armenian Grad missiles. Also, Grad rocket launchers are a heavy piece of ordnance, how could people of Khojaly get them, considering that the town was in complete blockade by Armenians from the beginning of the conflict? There were 3 armored troop carriers in Khojaly, which people bought from Russian internal troops of MVD, but MVD troops did not have any heavy artillery. According to Memorial, both sides confirm information about armored vehicles, but Armenian side also claims that there were 2 Grad rocket launchers in the town, which Azeri side does not confirm. Basically, there are no reliable independent sources to confirm that Khojaly was used to shell Stepanakert, at least I don’t know about any such source. Memorial report, which is the best and most detailed source about the massacre, says nothing about shelling from Khojaly, while describing exchange of fire between Shusha and Stepanakert:

Жилые кварталы как Степанакерта, так и Шуши с конца сентября систематически подвергались обстрелам с использованием артиллерии и модифицированных противоградовых ракет «Алазань». Жертв среди мирного населения, а также разрушений в Степанакерте было значительно больше, чем в Шуше. Это объясняется расположением Степанакерта в долине и большей интенсивностью обстрелов со стороны Шуши. Интенсивность обстрела с азербайджанской стороны в значительной мере объясняется тем, что боеприпасы были получены со складов армии СНГ, взятых под контроль азербайджанскими формированиями (так, в Агдаме было захвачено 200 тысяч тонн боеприпасов; по словам полковника В.Симонова, приведенным в газете «Московские новости» 17 от 26.04.92, там было около 200 вагонов реактивных снарядов).

Обе стороны объясняли ведение огня по жилым кварталам тем, что не могут из-за рельефа местности впрямую подавить огневые точки противника, и, обстреливая город, вынуждают противоположную сторону прекратить огонь. Мирное население обоих городов страдало не только от обстрелов, но и от отсутствия воды, продовольствия, медикаментов, отопления и освещения.

It says, that Shusha and Stepanakert were shelling each other, and civilian population of both towns suffered, but there were more destruction and casualties among civilians in Stepanakert, because Shusha was located higher and Azeris had more ammunition, but it says nothing about exchange of fire between Stepanakert and Khojaly. The main reason for the attack on Khojaly apparently was that it had the only airport in Karabakh, which Armenian forces wanted to take under control. If we consider Sarkisian’s words, another reason could be intimidation of Azeri people. The reasons of the attack are not mentioned in the article though. As for the journalist, his tragic death was accidental and not surprising considering that he always took great risk to make better footage, even his brother claims so, and there’s no proof of the opposite. Grandmaster 06:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

How can an airport at Khojaly be built without the use of bulldozers? Afterall, bulldozers are about as heavy if not more than Ural 375D 6x6 GRAD launchers aren't they? Even if they didn't drive up the GRAD units, they could have dropped them off via helicopter. As explained in De Waal's book, a GRAD unit is simple to use. You simply sit behind it and fire one 40, 122mm indiscriminate salvo after another. This includes the Alazan, the hail-breaking rocket which could be outfitted with explosives and to burst in the air over a city.

The journalist's death is far too suspicous to be considered circumstantial.--MarshallBagramyan 22:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The airport was built in Soviet times, before the war. It was the main reason for the attack, if you look at the map, Khojaly is not an advantageous point to shell Stepanakert. It is known that there was one Alazan system in the town, but it was not that good for military purposes. As for journalists death, you would be right, if he was killed while walking the streets of Baku, but when you are in the middle of a battle trying to film an exchange of fire, you are not guaranteed from death. Grandmaster 06:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Apparently I misconstrued your words into thinking that Khojaly had terrain that made it difficult for vehicles to trek to the city. But even so, its difficult to find sources that corroborate the existance of the GRAD units as only a a few exist, you can take a look here[1] but I have little reason to believe that you would take the words beyond face value. The Alazan rocket was an extremely dangerous weapon, both to the one who was firing it and its would be victims. If you have any extra information about the Alazan, please provide it since information is extremely lacking, Russian sources welcome.

I took a picture from Google Earth and measured the distance between the two towns [2] but was unable to find out about the topography.

I'll look more into the journalist's back info. Perhaps you may be right.--MarshallBagramyan 00:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

By looking at the map it appears that Khojaly was separated from Stepanakert by a mountain ridge, which makes shelling difficult. As for Alazan rocket launchers, I have a couple of Russian sources, since the article about Alazan rockets in Wikipedia is not really helpful, but they show conflicting figures for the range of Alazan missiles. One says [3] that the range of such rockets don’t exceed 3 km, the other one is about Alazan-5 systems, I’m not sure if it is a modern version or it the same model that was used in Karabakh war. It says that the range is 12 km. [4] Grandmaster 09:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

about my reverting

Hakob, I don't think encouraging under the current situation, copypasting of entire materials is advisable, it will bring to a mess where people will have dificulty finding eachothers answers. Link to the relevant material here to make your point. Regards. Fad (ix) 01:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

He got the info from a forum, which has a lot of profane language and contained responses not related to the topic at hand, that's why he pasted it here. I suggest that is be brought back.--Moosh88 02:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

http://www.karabagh.am/eng/GlavTem/xojalu.htm

Anything else he posted? Fad (ix) 03:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The sources like this are not worth considering. They are nothing but propaganda tools, I did not refer to any Azeri sources in the article, and the use of such sources is against Wikipedia rules anyway. http://www.karabagh.am is an Armenian propagandist website and it has obvious POV issues, they call this massacre “liberation of Khojaly” and manipulate the sources. According to Wiki rules, we should use unbiased reliable sources only. Grandmaster 10:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I just copied the source of a material that I removed. Fad (ix) 17:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

my answer

Grandmaster, if you don't mind, I post my answer here, because it is long. I provided other sources, but since I took them from newspapers and that they are not found in any websites, I decided to post them here.

Grandmaster, where the hell do you take your sources? HRW is what became of Helsinki Watch, yet this same organization do have reports of the Khojali residents being sandwitched between the Armenian forces and the OMONs(which you say is not true). Besides, your claim that Khojali was not used to attack Armenian positions and was isolated is contradicted by various reports. IT WAS THE ONY TOWN in the entire Karabakh that had an AIRPORT!

I told you I will offer you the newspapers, but yet you make this claim which is unsupported. Here, I will quote from the Toronto Star, Feb. 27, 1992, pg. A. 17, this information was taken from the Reuter. Here is the summary, if you want the full text, I will email it to you: Azerbaijan answered with a furious rocket attack - using Grad launchers taken from the former Soviet army - on the Nagorno- Karabakh capital Stepankert, an Armenian centre.

In fighting yesterday, Armenian forces chased Azeri army units out of Khojaly, leaving the city of Shusha as the only Azeri stronghold inside the remote Transcaucasian region.

Azeri refugees headed for Agdam, an Azeri city just outside the border of Nagorno-Karabakh, which has been administered by Azerbaijan since 1923.

And here, this in its AM edition summary: Local news agencies said Armenian forces chased Azeri army units out of Khojaly, leaving the city of Shusha as the only Azeri stronghold inside the remote Transcaucasian region.

Azeri refugees headed for Agdam, an Azeri city just outside the border of Nagorno-Karabakh, a predominantly Armenian enclave administered by Azerbaijan since 1923.

Azeri Interior Minister Tofik Kerimov said almost 100 Azeris were killed in the battle, with 250 wounded. Armenian sources put the figures far lower.

And now, comming to the eyewitnesses accounts.

Here in an example, of what I've been telling you, from CanWest News, March 1, 1992. pg. 1

Here is what the summary says, like I told you, I will provide the full newspaper to you if you request.

The boys are among refugees from the Azeri village of Khojaly, captured last week by Armenian paramilitary troops, reportedly backed by Russian troops from the former Soviet army.

Accounts by refugees and authorities helping them in Agdam contained many conflicting details on what happened in the latest of what Azerbaijan says is steady success by Armenians capturing Azeri villages in the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Some refugees reported seeing people killed, but the eyewitness accounts were on a much smaller scale than the death toll reported by the press service of Azeri president Ayez Mutalibov, quoting Khojaly prefect Elhan [Mamedov].

There are reports of the evacuation of the deputees of Karabakh after bombing the Parlement in Feb. 26. Here from the newspaper 'Les Echos' dated Feb. 26

Les députés du Nagorny Karabakh ont été évacués de Stépanakert vers un village des environs à la suite de la destruction du parlement par les bombardements azerbaïdjanais, a annoncé la représentation arménienne à Moscou.

You claim that Khojali was isolated, but this is totally false, it had an airport that was still active and used by the military, it was in fact one of the reasons why it was captured, and reported the ONLY airport. Le Monde Feb. 28, p. 3

Les combats ont redoublé de violence, mercredi 26 février, dans le Haut-Karabakh, avec la prise par les combattants arméniens de la localité de Khodjaly et de son aéroport, le seul qui se trouve dans l'enclave à population arménienne située en Azerbaïdjan.

In the same article.

And from the same article.

Les Azéris démentent utiliser des batteries de missiles multiples Grad, qui, selon les Arméniens, ont causé presque chaque jour dix morts ou plus dans la ville depuis plus d'une semaine.

The Cease fire which was obtained by the Iranian side which followed an exchange of victims is also documented in the newspapers. Goltz himself claims that most of the victims were killed after the capture, but yet, the Azeris army conterattacked after that night, which is also documented. Here an example from Le Monde Feb. 29 p. 5

De nouveaux combats entre Arméniens et Azerbaïdjanais ont rompu, jeudi 27 février, un cessez-le-feu de quelques heures conçu par le ministre iranien des affaires étrangères M. Ali Akhbar Velayati. Les deux parties se sont mutuellement accusées de l'avoir violé. Il semble que les forces azerbaïdjanaises aient tenté de lancer une contre-offensive après la prise par les Arméniens de l'aéroport de Khodjaly, le seul de l'enclave arménienne en territoire azerbaïdjanais.

Reports shows that there was two attacks on Khojaly, one during its capture by the Armenian forces, and secondly an attack by the Azeris army which failed, yet the international press coverage of high number of casulaties only surfaced after the Azeri forced lunched the attack(something that Goltz says nowhere when he admit most of the killings were done after), so the claim that there was no resistance in Khojali is wrong, also, the claim that it was isolated is also wrong, if the only place that had a airport was isolated, I wonder how isolated the other towns were.

Also, like I have previously posted, Le Monde Feb. 27

Mais cette visite semblait compromise hier par la violence des bombardements. En vingt-quatre heures, 150 roquettes tirées par des Azéris se sont abattues sur une base militaire de la CEI à Stepanakert, tuant un soldat et renforçant les craintes de voir les forces de la CEI entraînées dans le conflit.

...

Après la mort, dimanche, de deux soldats de ce régiment, un troisième militaire et plusieurs civils ont été tués mardi par des obus tirés par les Azéris, rapporte Tass en citant le commandement central. «Les affrontements se transforment en guerre ouverte où les forces de la CEI et plus précisément la 366e Division motorisée pourraient être entraînées», avertit la Pravda. La télévision russe a pour sa part déjà présenté le conflit du Karabakh comme la première guerre de l'ère post-soviétique. Paris a annoncé son intention de présenter à la Communauté européenne un plan de cessez-le-feu en quatre points.

The 366e regiment was attacked, as is reported in Le Monde: Face à la dégradation de la situation des forces de la CEI, leur commandement a autorisé lundi le 366e Régiment motorisé, bloqué à Stepanakert où il en est réduit à manger des chiens errants, l'autorisation de riposter s'il était attaqué.

The 366e recieved the order to attack if it was attacked, the article in Wikipedia reads as if the 366e army, which was composed no only of Armenians, entered in Khojali and started massacring civilians..., while this same army penetrated after it was attacked as report newspapers. Once they have entered they have captured the airport which was strategic and expected. While it is claimed that there was no defence, the Azeris position lunched a conterattack a day later.

Those informations do not come from Armenian sources, those are what I read in newspaper databases, and I told you once you start researching in newspaper archives you'll see by yourself that what I am saying is reported.

Comming to the casulty figures, the at least 150 that I have provided comes from notable books, and given that not much books have covered this issue, they become important. As for Memorial, this organization is not notable.

Finally the PACE thing. Grandmaster, are you kidding me? There are few things that are considered as established in Wikipedia, and it is the name of things or what can not be disagreed by any parties. This declaration which was written by the Turkish and Azeris delegation is simply and obviously a lie. It claims that the Armenians have massacred every single person in Khojaly, the 'whole population.' Besides, like I told you, there are hundreds of members in the PACE, what you claim is totally misleading. At least, there should be a mention in the article saying that the declaration claims that the whole population in Khojali was massacred while every sides agree that this is not true, unless you can find a single source saying that the whole population in Khojali was massacred. Fad (ix) 17:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

HRW places in a report the number of civilians killed to be at least 161 [5] Fad (ix) 22:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

This is report of 1993. In their report of 1994 they updated their numbers, making the minimal figure at least 200. The latest report supersedes the earlier one. Grandmaster 06:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

To corroborate Fadix's response, here's an article from the Boston Globe on the attack:

Armenians, Azeris tell of terror Behind an alleged massacre, a long trail of personal revenge Boston Globe. Mar 15, 1992. pg. 1

"The fighters do not deny that there were atrocities. But they assert, with passion if not always with conviction, that these were perpetrated by the Azeris on their own people. On the other hand, a brief inspection of Khojaly suggests that Azerbaijani estimates of the settlement's civilian population were exaggerrated and its estimate of Khojaly's military significance was underplayed. The final death toll, therefore, may be well under the 1,000 victims claimed by Azerbaijan's leadership. So far, reports from Agdam say, between 100 to 200 bodies have been recovered."

And here's one more from the Washington Post:

Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabakh, Moldova Fred Hiatt. The Washington Post. Mar 3, 1992. pg. a.12

"Armenia denied Azerbaijani accusations that hundreds of civilians had been massacred last week in the Nagorno-Karabakh village of Khojaly, which Armenian forces attacked in an effort to stop shelling from there of Stepanakert, the enclave's capital."--MarshallBagramyan 22:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Khojali had the only airport in Karabakh, and that was apparently the main reason for the attack on the town. Toronto star does not say that Stepanakert was attacked from Khojaly, it just says it came under rocket attack, presumably from Shusha. I never denied that there were Azerbaijani military forces in the town, and your sources confirm that. The question is was the killing of such a large number of civilians justified by this fact. It is not clear whether Khojaly was indeed used to shell Stepanakert, as some sources claim, and we know that Stepanakert was also used to shell Azeri settlements, but suffered more because it was hit from Shusha, which was located higher. But even if we agree that Khojaly was used to shell Stepanakert, it is still does not justify mass killing of unarmed civilians in the plains outside of the town. Here’s a description of the massacre from HRW1993 report:

During the winter of 1992, Armenian forces went on the offensive, forcing almost the entire Azerbaijani population of the enclave to flee, and committing unconscionable acts of violence against civilians as they fled. The most notorious of these attacks occurred on February 25 in the village of Khojaly. A large column of residents, accompanied by a few dozen retreating fighters, fled the city as it fell to Armenian forces. As they approached the border with Azerbaijan, they came across an Armenian military post and were cruelly fired upon. At least 161 civilians are known to have been murdered in this incident, although Azerbaijani officials estimate that about 800 perished. Armenian forces killed unarmed civilians and soldiers who were hors de combat, and looted and sometimes burned homes. [6]

According to the press reports, many women and children were shot to their heads from point blank range. Anatol Lieven of The Times describes one of the locations of the massacre:

Of the 31 we saw, only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing uniform. All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children cradled in the women's arms. Several of them, including one small girl, had terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground. Grandmaster 07:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

As for the declaration, maybe we should ask the opinion of third parties, because we don’t need to evaluate the factual accuracy of the declaration, we need to report that such declaration existed, and I see no reason why it should get more than one line in the text, since it was not a PACE resolution, but opinion of a number of deputies. Maybe Francis can share his opinion on this issue with us. Grandmaster 07:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Grandmaster, I do not deny the death of civilians, neither do I deny that Armenian soldiers have killed them. I just request that Helsinki Watch version be preserved, which is not preserved. In fact, some Turkish language publications in occasion do report that Khojali was more armed than what you presume. Here an example, and I won't translate it because of my limited Turkish. This discribes the events according to Turkmen soldiers from the CIS who were in the fightings and escaped because they could not fight against their fellow Muslims, this army distachment composed mostly of Armenians have died leaving only those Turkmens who decided to escape rather than fighting in Khojali. Tepelerde Ermeniler onlerini kesmis. Ellerindeki silahlarla acilan atese onlar da karsilik vermis. Ama beraber olduklari grupta herkes olmus.

"Oniki kisi gozumuzun onunde oldu. Kacip, buraya geldik. Muslumanlara karsi savasamadik." diyordu konustugumuz iki Turkmenistanli asker. [Cumhuriyet, 2 Mart 1992, Baslik : Gozu Oyulmus Cesetler, Hicran Oge - Baku]

If there was no serious defense in Khojali, how come an entire distachment in the capture of Khojali was destroyed?

Furthermore, this is what Helsinki Watch report, and this can be obtained from an Azeris website. [7]

At Nakhichevanik Armenians and troops of the CIS 366th regiment opened fire on the retreating OMON militia and the fleeing residents. All Azerbaijanis interviewed who were in this group reported that the militia, still inuniform, and some still carrying their guns, were interspersed with the masses of civilians. For example, Hijran Alekpera, a twenty-three-year-old former bakeryworker, described a mass of civilians who moved along surrounded by a ring of defenders. They tried to defend us. They had guns and they would try to shootback."

According to a twenty-one-year-old Azerbaijani woman whose toes had to be amputated because of frostbite damage, The leaders of our group were men. The Armenians opened fire as we approached the village [of Nakhichevanik]. They surrounded us and shot. There was shooting between Armenian soldiers and ours. SA., a member of the OMON unit, told Helsinki Watch, "We were shooting and running in the pack, but it was not an organized retreat. We were all mixed together." Another young Azerbaijani woman, who suffered frostbite on her legs, also described the crossfire: "When Armenians saw us they began to shoot. We hid. At the same time Azerbaijanis shot back. They were Azerbaijani OMON. Some of them were with us when we fled.

Some other issues there, as one of the newspapers I have posted, it is said that the description by the witnesses suggest a lower death tool, and there has been publications with an entire different interpretation, here an example; The Role of Media in Reporting Ethnic Conflict, Conflict Management Group, Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA. January 1994, page 31-32; Dan Sneider, Moscow correspondent, Christian Science Monitor.

“I would like to talk as a working journalist to my colleagues here, because although this discussion has been very interesting and often provocative, it is a little bit too abstract for my own taste. I would like to talk about these guidelines in terms of concrete situations.

This first question of balance and providing unbiased and accurate coverage of each side of the conflict: I have covered the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan for three years now. The principle of balance is a great principle but often hard to accomplish in reality. Let me give you the example of the events in Khozhali. I was in Moscow when the stories came out of Khozhali saying there was this tremendous massacre of civilians by Armenian forces, there were gruesome stories, some TV footage, but it was very hard to figure out what exactly the pictures were of, and the numbers of people described as being killed, and the circumstances varied depending upon the account. I decided to go to Nagorno-Karabakh, but I went through the Armenian side because I wanted to get into Karabakh itself which at that point was controlled, as it is now, by the Armenians.

Before I left, I had heard of all these reports, I talked to one Western news photographer who had been on the scene. But even he had not actually seen the events himself. His account was based on having been flown up to a mountain side by the Azeris in a helicopter to take photographs of bodies on the hillside, bodies which seemed to indicate that they were of civilians, but also adult men, but seemed to indicate that they had been shot at close range. So I had that information together with all the other conflicting reports. I made my way to Karabakh and spoke to the Armenian authorities there, who gave me their version of events which was of course completely different. They described the battle as they saw it. I interviewed soldiers who had been directly involved in the battle, who had been firing on Azeri forces. I was in Khozhali, I saw the city, the damage that was done, some of the damage fit the description of the battle that I got from the Armenian side, which was that there was a big battle, the Azeris tried to move out of the town under fire, it was in the middle of the night, they fired on everything that they saw…”

Coming to your claim about the GRAD missles, Grandmaster, at least 10 GRAD missile launchers were reported taken by Armenians in Khojali, this has been reported in the Turkish press too. An example is TURAN report of March 4, claiming that the Russian military taking away those launchers from Khojali have given them to the Armenian units.

Khojali had the only airport, Khojali had GRAD launchers, and Armenians have been reporting that the capital was attacked for months from there and you claim that there is no significant proof of that? The Karabakh parlement was bombarded by such attacks io Feb. 26 during the counter offensive, and one of the newspaper reports I have posted includes this information.

Besides, another claim of the surprise attack, Helsinki Watch interviews of April 28, 1992 of refugees, clearly shows that Armenian army already placed an ultimatum on Khojali requesting civilians to quit it because they will launch an attack, the interviews also say that Alif Gagiev announced this Ultimatum on Feb. 15, but no one believed that they will attempt to do that, this finally became action after the last bombing of the Capital preceding the capture.

As for the PACE report, I will answer you in my answer to Francis about his proposition. Fad (ix) 20:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, Fadix, you are arguing about the things I don’t actually dispute. I never said that there was no fighting in Khojaly or that OMON policemen did not shoot back at Armenians. Of course, there was fighting in the town of Khojaly, and it was bombarded by the artillery and tanks of 366 regiment of Soviet army. Both sides confirmed to Memorial that this regiment participated in the attack on Khojaly, but while refugees from Khojaly told Memorial that they saw the soldiers of this regiment entering the town, Armenian side claimed that the armored vehicles of this regiment with their crews indeed participated in the attack, they shelled the town but did not enter, and that they had no written orders from the commanders of the regiment. And I would like to see a source claiming that there were 10 (!) Grad launchers in Khojaly. Even Armenian forces did not claim that. The Armenian forces told Memorial, that there were 2 Grad launchers in the town, while Azeri side did not confirm that. But both Azeri and Armenian sides agreed that there were 3 armored troop carriers and an Alazan rocket launcher in Khojaly. The Memorial report also says: As result of the bombardment of the town uncertain number of civilians was killed during the assault. The Armenian side practically refused to provide information about the number of people killed this way. Grandmaster 10:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Grandmaster, they did penatrate it, it was the Russians that are claimed to have taken those Grads.

Turan News Agency March 4, 1992

Armenians have been given 10 "GRAD" launchers

Shusha, 03/04/92, Turan: According to the information obtained, 10 reactive launchers "GRAD," as if taken away from Khojaly, were given to Armenian armed formations by Russian military units. Fad (ix) 18:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Taken away or as if taken away? Grandmaster 18:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that is what the Russians or/and Armenians claims but doubted by Turan. As if means that it was pretended to be taken from there, the interpretation of the pretention is from Turan. Fad (ix) 19:10, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but that’s a very dubious source, something like that about Hattab fighting in Karabakh. Armenian militants themselves claimed much less than that talking to Memorial observers. Grandmaster 19:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Other international observers

Eupator removed the words other international observers, which I restored. I already explained who those other international observers were, now I’m explaining once again to put an end to this issue. There are so many reports in the international press about the massacre being committed by Armenian forces that it is not possible to list them all. See below some examples:

The New York Times

Massacre by Armenians Being Reported

(Reuters); Foreign Desk Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 3, Column 4, 430 words DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 430 WORDS -Fresh evidence emerged today of a massacre of civilians by Armenian militants in Nagorno-Karabakh, a predominantly Armenian enclave of Azerbaijan. The Azerbaijani press agency Azerinform reported renewed Armenian missile fire on the Azerbaijani-populated town of Shusha on Sunday night. It said several people had been wounded in another attack,...

[8]

The Times, 3 March 1992

MASSACRE UNCOVERED By ANATOL LIEVEN

More than sixty bodies, including those of women and children, have been spotted on hillsides in Nagorno-Karabakh, confirming claims that Armenian troops massacred Azeri refugees. Hundreds are missing.

Scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last Wednesday's massacre by Armenian forces of Azerbaijani refugees.

Time magazine: The blood feud between Armenians and Azerbaijanis claims 200 civilians

By JILL SMOLOWE

Mar. 16, 1992

While the details are disputed, this much is plain: something grim and unconscionable happened in the Azerbaijani town of Khojaly two weeks ago. So far, some 200 dead Azerbaijanis, many of them mutilated, have been transported out of the town tucked inside the Armenian-dominated enclave of Nagorno- Karabakh for burial in neighboring Azerbaijan. The total number of dead -- the Azerbaijanis claim 1,324 civilians were slaughtered, most of them women and children -- is unknown. But the facile explanation offered by the attacking Armenians, who insist that no innocents were deliberately killed, is hardly convincing. [9]

There are more such reports to be found here [10], and they are easily verifiable, considering that some people have access to media databases. Also see the book called Black Garden by Thomas de Waal, it has a chapter called Khojaly [11], and it also places blame with Armenians. Basically, none of the reliable sources supports Armenian claims, and there are too many reports of the massacre committed by Armenians to list in the article, therefore I used the words other international observers. Grandmaster 06:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Grandmaster, it is true that none of the reliable sources support the official Armenian Government version, but neither do they support the Azeri government official version, besides the rest of the Time magazine article is also interesting.

It is true that you will find many newspapers, but those in that link are selectivally chosen, if you have access to a databe and search in that date period you will see that this selectiviness does not exist. If I were to selectivally quote I will come to an entire different story. Here an example, I can claim that 1,500 Armenians were killed in 1988 during the progroms, and support it selectivally chose newspapers, ex: "1,500 reported dead in Armenian riots," Detroit News (Mar 11, 1988). Fad (ix) 20:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The reports are all similar, they either support the version of Azerbaijan, HRW, Memorial, etc, or they say that the massacre of Khojaly people is reported by Azerbaijani side or other journalists or organizations. I just needed to illustrate the point that it was not only Azerbaijan, HRW and Memorial, who blame Armenians for the massacre, that’s why I provided these particular media reports. And indeed, there’s none of any significance to support the Armenian version. Grandmaster 07:43, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

This is wrong, and you know it. Your version is not the Azerbaijani official version. Azerbaijan claims that there was nearly no resistance in Khojali, which you seemed to claim in the beggining too, neither others support the civilians 'killed' of more than 600, neither the claim that the 366e with the Armenian forces entered in Khojaly for no security reasons, while the 366e was attacked and has casulties before they announced that they will attack back if they are attacked again. The Memorial, from the translations you have posted, are the only that seem to come close to the Azerbaijani government official version, but it is also the less notable organization, which I have never heard of before. This organization seems to have no publications in French, English, German or any widely used languages other than Russian, and until now hasn't even a search engine neither any publication other than Russian in their own websites. I even doubt that they have the number of volonteers they claim they have, they could even not run a website all by themselves and yet they are called international organization. Also, in the very large majority of newspaper reports, the tone of 'Azerbaijan claims' 'Armenian claims' is maintained. Fad (ix) 18:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

The article says that all those parties claim that the massacre was committed by ethnic Armenian forces, which is true. They do claim so. The article says nothing about them supporting the Azerbaijani position, of course they differ in some aspects, but they all place blame with the same side to the conflict. The line about 366 motor rifle regiment can be made a separate phrase, because not all sources mention their role. Their action was not a self-defense, they participated in the attacks on Azerbaijani settlements before and were a legitimate target as combatants. It would be surprising if Azerbaijani side pretended that nothing happened, while militaries of 366 regiment continued to shell Azeri settlements and burn villages. They attacked and were attacked in response. About half of the officers of that regiment were ethnic Armenians, including current minister of defense of Karabakh separatists’ Oganian, others fought for money as mercenaries. As for Memorial, it is the leading Russian human rights organization, they may not be notable worldwide, but they are notable for Russia and former USSR. Grandmaster 19:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

PACE

Right, with the PACE thing, I think it is reasonable to include it — if we're sitting here arguing over it for so long then the chances are that it is notable in some way. However I would adjust the way it is presented. Below is Fadix' complaint:

This text has neither any historic value, neither was it supported by a significant number of non-Turkish and non-Azeris members to claim a 'various country' suggesting some sort of support for a term not used in a single notable work. 2 members from Albania, 3 from United Kingdom, 1 Luxembourg, 1 Poland, 1 Macedonia, 1 Bulgaria and 1 from Norway. The way it is worded seems as if various members from various countries have recognized it which is not the cases, there are hundreds of members in the PACE.

This is what the article currently states:

In a Written Declaration No. 324 a number of PACE members from various countries called on PACE to recognize the massacre in Khojaly as part of "genocide perpetrated by Armenians against the Azerbaijani population".

This is what I suggest the article is altered to state:

In Written Declaration No. 324, members of the PACE from Albania, Azerbaijan, Turkey and the United Kingdom, along with individual members from Bulgaria, Luxembourg, Macedonia and Norway called on the Assembly to recognize the massacre in Khojaly as part of "genocide perpetrated by Armenians against the Azerbaijani population".

I would also suggest that this be moved into an "International reaction" section which would contain reactions from governments, super-national organisations etc. I will make the change, please feel free to revert me. - FrancisTyers 12:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

That’s fine with me. Grandmaster 12:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, cool. I have also moved it down into the international reaction section. I think this is a reasonable compromise. The lead really was too long, and should only be for stating both sides of the story. The article looks much more balanced now. I also added This explanation however is widely disputed, you might want to find a source for that, I mean it occurs to me that this is true, but I can understand if the Armenian side want a source for it. As with all my edits to this page, feel free to revert, I have no stake in it at all, just trying to help :) - FrancisTyers 12:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

That’s fine with me too. I have already provided another source that disputes Armenian version, see an article from authoritative The Time magazine, it says: But the facile explanation offered by the attacking Armenians, who insist that no innocents were deliberately killed, is hardly convincing. [12]

Also, thanks for your assistance, we desperately need a neutral third party contribution to resolve our disputes. Grandmaster 12:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Francis, it's still misleading, this declaration claims that the whole population in Khojaly have been massacred along with other claims that even officials at Baku don't claim. This article was prepared by the Turks and Azeris members to be submitted two days on the panel after the Armenian genocide article was proposed because the Turkish delegation found that the other article about Armenia submitted on April 25 was not harsh enought. While this article has a place, it should clarly be specified that this declaration claims that the whole population in Khojali have been massacred while even the officials at Baku neither any organizations, institutions support this view. Fad (ix) 20:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, to get this out of the way, I agree that the declaration is ridiculous. I think that all sensible people would concur with me on this. The problem is that I believe it is definately notable enough to include. I have included more of the declaration, specifically the part that you mention. I would probably not agree with saying something like "the declaration stated that the whole population was massacred, but no-one else believes this". I think a more effective way forward would just be just to state the positions (with sources) of the parties involved and notable international organisations. I'm surprised the towns population is not mentioned anywhere actually. If the official death toll is 613, how large was the population of the town? We must try not to argue against points, but rather state positions in a fair and neutral manner. - FrancisTyers 23:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The figures for population of the town are available in the report of Memorial. According to them, the population of the town increased from 2135 in 1988 to 6300 in 1991 due to influx of Azerbaijani refugees from Stepanakert and other settlements of Nagorno-Karabakh. Also, Azerbaijani authorities settled in Khojaly Azerbaijani refugees from Armenia and Meskhetian Turk refugees from Central Asia. Azerbaijani authorities build new houses, schools and industry in the town, and it became second largest town with Azerbaijani population in NK after Shuha. By the time of the attack there were 2000 – 4000 people in the town, including a few hundred town defenders. Grandmaster 06:03, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Dude, for over a decade, Azerbaijani refugees still live in camps, how on Earth anyone is supposed to believe that in a period of 3 years, houses have been build in Khojaly to accept 4000 refugees, which represented two times the population of the town prior to it? The claims of 6-7 thousand is maintained by the Azeri government, who the hell wrote the Memorial report providing those numbers, is there any sources they provide for this assumption? Is there any census records? When the army penatrated, they haven't even reported 2 thousand people living there, yet the Azeri government claims in the 6-7 thousand. Fad (ix) 19:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

If you read carefully, the report says that by the time of the attack the number of population remaining in the town was between 2000 – 4000. The rest had left the town. The last Soviet census was in 1989. Grandmaster 19:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Intl. reaction

According to Human Rights Watch, "while it is widely accepted that 200 Azeris were murdered, as many as 500-1,000 may have died" [9].

I can find no such thing here: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5078/armenpress.html

Please explain yourself gm. --Eupator 19:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The citation is from this document: Human Rights Watch / Helsinki. Azerbaijan: Seven Years of Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. New York. 1994. Available here for the price of $10. Grandmaster 04:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Here’s the full citation of the relevant section:

Both sides shelled each other's cities and towns and committed atrocities. In February 1992, Karabakh Armenian forces - reportedly backed by soldiers from the 366th Motor Rifle Regiment of the Russian Army - seized the Azeri-populated town of Khojaly, about seven kilometers outside of Stepanakert. More than 200 civilians were killed in the attack, the largest massacre to date in the conflict.

And the footnote says:

There are no exact figures for the number of Azeri civilians killed because Karabakh Armenian forces gained control of the area after the massacre. While it is widely accepted that 200 hundred Azeris were murdered, as many as 500-1,000 may have died. Grandmaster 10:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

So fix it. It's linking to something unrelated.--Eupator 11:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

All the references got mixed up because of the latest edits and movements of the sections. I tried to fix them, should be OK now. Grandmaster 12:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Answer to the claim of the CIS burning Azeris villages

Their action was not a self-defense, they participated in the attacks on Azerbaijani settlements before and were a legitimate target as combatants. It would be surprising if Azerbaijani side pretended that nothing happened, while militaries of 366 regiment continued to shell Azeri settlements and burn villages. They attacked and were attacked in response. About half of the officers of that regiment were ethnic Armenians, including current minister of defense of Karabakh separatists’ Oganian, others fought for money as mercenaries.

We are back to square one Grandmaster, you again claim that the 366e was attacked because it was burning and attacking. You are taking the Azerbaijani government allegations to reality, which non-Azeri sources close to the government support those claims?

Here, I logged AGAIN in newspaper databases, from Feb 2 to Feb 26 gives a clear picture of what happened and for this reason I do believe it is important to post them, which might be important later for expending this article.

It started after the admission by Europe of 10 ex-Soviet SSR as nations.

Note, most of those materials are copies from the summaries of the articles, when there was no summary available I copied the first paragraph, when I believed necessary to include more, and thought that there was no other possibility, I did. Here, since the rest of the texts are not included, many references about the shelling of the capital are just not there. But I may come to that in another post. I have not censured anything.

Le Soleil Dimanche 2 février 1992, p. A6

La guerre au Nagorny-Karabakh

Illustration(s) :

Reuter De violents affrontements ont eu lieu hier au Nagorny-Karabakh, l'enclave arménienne située en Azerbaïdjan, quand les troupes arméniennes ont lancé une offensive pour reprendre des villages conquis la veille par l'armée azerbaïdjanaise. On aperçoit ici un lance-roquettes azerbaïdjanais, juché sur un camion, dont les projectiles sont destinés au village arménien d'Erkach. Au moins 34 soldats, en majorité des Azerbaïdjanais, auraient été tués hier.

Do you wonder of which village they talk about? Here the second news gives more information.

La Presse Le Monde, dimanche 2 février 1992, p. B5

Riposte arménienne

AFP

MOSCOU - Les forces d'auto-défense arméniennes ont contre-attaqué hier à l'aube au lendemain d'une vaste offensive de l'armée azerbaïdjanaise au Nagorny-Karabakh, qui a déjà fait au moins une quarantaine de morts. Un premier bilan de la contre-attaque se monte à trente tués côté azerbaïdjanais et quatre morts et 14 blessés côté arménien, selon l'agence ITAR-TASS citant des combattants arméniens. Les affrontements de vendredi avaient fait pour leur part cinq morts et 52 blessés dans les rangs azerbaïdjanais, d'après un bilan du ministère des Affaires étrangères à Bakou.

It all started when Azerbaijan decided to penetrate Karabakh villages by villages after they have modified its statue and abolished its autonomous territory. Here, I continue.

Armenia might seek UN troops; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 3, 1992. pg. C.10

DAVOS, Switzerland - Armenian President Levon Ter-Petrosyan said yesterday that he might appeal for UN peacekeeping troops to be sent to Nagorno-Karabakh, a mountainous region populated mainly by Armenians but located entirely inside Azerbaijan.

Le Soleil Lundi 3 février 1992, p. A6

De violents affrontements entre Azéris et Arméniens

Reuter; AFP

BAKOU, Azerbaïdjan - De violents affrontements entre Azéris et Arméniens se sont poursuivis hier au Haut-Karabakh, faisant au moins une trentaine de morts en 24 heures, selon la télévision russe captée à Londres.

La Presse Le Monde, lundi 3 février 1992, p. A8

L'Azerbaïdjan accepterait l'envoi d'observateurs au Nagorny Karabakh

AFP

DAVOS - Ayaz Moutalibov, le président azerbaïdjanais, a déclaré hier à Davos qu'il n'était pas opposé à l'envoi d'observateurs étrangers au Nagorny Karabakh, mais qu'il n'approuvait pas en revanche un éventuel déploiement d'une force de maintien de la paix pour s'interposer entre Arméniens et Azéris dans les combats meurtriers qui les opposent dans cette région.

Now, it was after that, that taking Khojali was not only a necessity for security reason but also for the survival of its habitants.

[ Emerging international interest in helping resolve the... ], Juliet O'Neill, Southam News. CanWest News. Don Mills, Ont.: Feb 4, 1992. pg. 1

Tuesday, France's minister for humanitarian activity announced he had negotiated an agreement between the presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan at the Davos World Economic Forum in Switzerland to open a "humanitarian corridor" to and from Nagorno-Karabakh, an Armenian enclave in Azerbaijan that has become increasingly cut off from food, fuel, transportation and communications with the outside world.

Russian President Boris Yeltsin said at the United Nations that peacekeeping troops should be sent -- a proposal rejected in the past by Azeribaijani President Ayaz Mutalibov, but supported by Armenia's leaders. Mutalibov is widely reported to be interested in peace, but is hemmed in by opponents. They include some pushing this as a Christian-Muslim dispute, who seek an ever-tougher line against Armenia and its claims on behalf of the Karabakh enclave that was carved from Armenia decades ago.

[Podoprigora], head of the Russian mediation team, recalls that former Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev proposed such a zone not long before he resigned. But it was a stillborn plan, he said, because it came from Azeri leader Mutalibov and "we told Gorbachev it would mean taking a pro-Azeri position . . . while the Azeris wanted to cut Nagorno-Karabakh off from the outside world and create unbearable conditions for the people and bring them to their knees."

Le Soleil Mardi 11 février 1992, p. C5

Des mercenaires iraniens se battent en Azerbaïdjan

MOSCOU - De cent à cent cinquante «gardiens de la révolution» iraniens sont engagés aux côtés des forces azerbaïdjanaises dans les combats contre les Arméniens au Nagorny Karabakh, assurait hier l'hebdomadaire russe Kommersant citant des «sources informées».

And how the Armenians answer back? Guerillas lunch an attack. As you see, I am NOT censuring anything, I just post a continuity of what was reported in the press.

Guerillas attack key Azeri village; [FIN Edition], Reuter. Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 11, 1992. pg. A.13

MOSCOW (Reuter) - Armenian guerrillas attacked a strategic Azeri village in the disputed enclave of Nagorno- Karabakh and burned it to the ground early today, Commonwealth television reported.

Armenian enclave fears a genocide; [AM Edition] Felix Corley. Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 11, 1992. pg. A.17

Are these fears realistic? The Azeris far outnumber the Armenians in weapons and manpower. Their troops are deployed all around the enclave and, within the enclave itself, around the capital Stepanakert. The Azeris have done all in their power to strangle the population. The increasingly unstable situation in Azerbaijan itself has seen both the president, Ayaz Mutalibov, and the opposition Popular Front whipping up anti-Armenian hysteria. The chances of an all-out assault are strong and the Karabakh government has to prepare its people for the worst.

Karabakh's Armenians are cut off. As they face repeated onslaughts from Azeri forces they know little of what the outside world is doing. They hope their urgent pleas for sanctions against Azerbaijan will be heard in the West including in Ottawa where, today, the deputy speaker of the British House of Lords, Baroness Caroline Cox, who led two fact-finding missions to Nagorno-Karabakh last month, will meet with Canadian MPs and External Affairs officials.

The same news of the Armenian guerillas attacking.

Armenians launch major offensive in disputed region; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 12, 1992. pg. A.11

MOSCOW - Armenian militants launched a major offensive yesterday in the disputed region Nagorno-Karabakh, capturing an Azerbaijani village and killing several people, Russian news media reported.

Armenian and Azerbaijani forces have been battling sporadically for control of Nagorno-Karabakh for four years, and several hundred people have been killed. The mountainous region is populated mainly by Armenians but is located within Azerbaijan.

Rights activist fears genocide in Karabakh; [FINAL Edition], IRWIN BLOCK. The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 13, 1992. pg. A.9

The blockade and shelling of the Armenian enclave of NagornoKarabakh inside Azerbaijan could result in the genocide of its beleagured inhabitants, Lady Caroline Cox, a British human- rights advocate, warned yesterday.

Nagorno-Karabakh is populated mainly by Armenians but located in and administered by Azerbaijan.

Cox, who has visited Nagorno-Karabakh five times in the last year on behalf of human-rights groups, says her worst fear is that the conflict may deteriorate into open war between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Shelling kills 20 in disputed region; [ONT Edition], Reuter. Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 17, 1992. pg. A.4

Nagorno-Karabakh Prime Minister Oleg Esayan said Azeri forces shelled the territory's main city of Stepanakert with rockets and heavy guns through most of yesterday, reported Interfax.

20 more killed in conflict over Karabakh region; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 17, 1992. pg. C.10

MOSCOW - At least 20 people were killed and dozens injured during the weekend in some of the heaviest shelling of the four- year Armenian-Azeri conflict over the territory of Nagorno- Karabakh, Interfax news agency reported.

Nagorno-Karabakh is a largely Armenian-populated area inside Azerbaijan, ruled from the Azeri capital, Baku. For four years, Armenian militants have been fighting for autonomy.

Ethnic clashes leave 25 dead in Karabakh; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 20, 1992. pg. B.7

The bloodshed in Nagorno-Karabakh, attributed by the Itar-Tass news agency to Azeri shelling of the region's capital, Stepanakert, occurred exactly four years after the Red Army was sent into the predominantly Armenian enclave in an attempt to stop the ethnic fighting.

[Leonid Kravchuk] said in Kiev that Ukraine, Russia and the two other nuclear-armed former Soviet republics should participate equally in arms talks with the United States.

La Presse Le Monde, vendredi 21 février 1992, p. A10

Arméniens et Azerbaïdjanais sont de nouveau d'accord sur la nécessité d'établir un «cessez-le-feu immédiat»

AFP

MOSCOU - Arméniens et Azerbaïdjanais, réunis hier à Moscou sous l'égide de la Russie, sont tombés de nouveau d'accord sur la «nécessité d'un cessez-le-feu immédiat» au Nagorny-Karabakh, tout en admettant pour la première fois le rôle que pouvaient jouer la CSCE et l'ONU dans un règlement.

Nagorno-Karabakh villages suffer heavy bombardment; Leaders' call for ceasefire goes unheeded; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 22, 1992. pg. A.12

MOSCOW - Artillery pounded the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh enclave in the Caucasus mountains yesterday and Azerbaijan's President Ayaz Mutalibov urged his countrymen to unite into a "single fist," local news agencies reported.

More than 1,000 people have been killed in four years of fighting between Armenian and Azeri gunmen over Nagorno-Karabakh, which the Kremlin awarded to Azerbaijan in 1923.

It asked him "to discuss the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh at the next sitting of the UN Security Council and urgently introduce UN peacekeeping troops to the region and declare Nagorno-Karabakh a disaster area."

Bad news from Karabakh Refugees resigned to grief; [FINAL Edition], KARL WALDRON. The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 22, 1992. pg. B.1.BRE

There are 120,000 refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh in Armenia, 2,234- plus villages in Nagorno-Karabakh and 836 red pins on the map of journalist Levon Zavarian. They mark a reported incident involving death committed by Azeri troops on Armenians, 182 of a different color marking those committed by Armenians on Azeris.

Since the signing in September of the Zheloznovodsk Communique - the treaty which "guarantees" and Azeri/Armenian ceasefire in Karabakh, the release of prisoners, and free movement of food, citizens, materials and telecommunications between the territory and Armenia - Levon Zavarian has added more pins to his map.

They carry drugs, scalpels, vaccinations - humanitarian aid, but because they also carry Armenian soldiers riding shotgun they suffer Azeri fire. Azerbaijan claims the troops mark them as military transports, Armenia says they fire only when fired upon.

Le Soleil Dimanche 23 février 1992, p. B4

Chapochnikov craint une guerre dans le Caucase

MOSCOU - Le commandant en chef de l'armée de la CEI a averti hier qu'une guerre à outrance risquait d'éclater dans le Caucase si l'ex-Armée rouge intervenait dans le conflit du Nagorny-Karabakh

Marshal fears full-scale war in former Soviet territory; [SU1 Edition], Reuter-AP. Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 23, 1992. pg. A.5

Armenia's defence minister, Vozgen Sarkisyan, said that more than 20 people were killed when Azerbaijani militants fired missiles on the mainly Armenian area of Askeransky inside Nagorno-Karabakh.

In another clash, Moscow Radio reported that two commonwealth soldiers and three Azerbaijani guerrillas were killed yesterday in a clash on the outskirts of the Azeri town of Gyandzha, just north of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Now, here is the claim of the army burning and destroying villages, which ended up to be unconfirmed and probably a pure fabrication.

Armenian invasion breaks 2-day truce Azerbaijan claims; [FINAL Edition], JOHN-THOR DAHLBURG. The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 23, 1992. pg. B.1.BRE

Allegedly riding tanks and other armored vehicles and accompanied by units of the former Soviet 4th and 7th armies, the Armenian forces were "destroying villages and annihilating the peaceful population of the border zones," Azerbaijan's official press service said. But the unofficial Assa-Irada press agency reported only two villagers were killed and two injured.

The invading force's goal, Assa-Irada said, was to sweep through Kubatly and Jebrail provinces and block the only road linking Lachin province and Shusha, the major Azerbaijani population centre of the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh, with the rest of Azerbaijan.

Since February 1988, the two republics have been locked in a violent feud over the status of the territory, which although predominantly Armenian and hence Christian in population, was attached to mostly Muslim Azerbaijan by Kremlin fiat at the dawn of Soviet rule.

Le Soleil Lundi 24 février 1992, p. B6

L'Azerbaïdjan attaque

AP

MOSCOU - Au moins sept personnes ont été tuées hier et dix autres blessées à Stepanakert, le chef-lieu du Haut-Karabakh, qui a essuyé une centaine de tirs d'artillerie en provenance de la ville de Choucha, en Azerbaïdjan, ont rapporté des agences de presse.

Le 366ème Régiment motorisé du chef-lieu Stepanakert, qui dépend des forces de la Communauté des États indépendants ouvait parmi les cibles visées, selon l'agence indépendante Interfax. Interfax a ajouté qu'un soldat avait été tué et 10 autres blessés.

Un porte-parole du département local des Affaires intérieures cité par ITAR-Tass a déclaré que les militaires de ce régiment avaient commencé à exprimer ouvertement leur mécontentement concernant la neutralité de leurs commandants, alors que les forces de l'Azerbaïdjan tirent non seulement sur la population de cette enclave arménienne mais aussi sur les soldats restés neutres.

ITAR-Tass a ajouté que six civils avaient été tués au cours des bombardements d'hier, qui ont également causé d'importants dégâts. «De nombreuses victimes sont sous les décombres ou dans des maisons incendiées.»

ITAR-Tass a aussi rapporté que le bilan global des affrontements au cours des dernières 24 heures dans cette enclave à majorité arménienne en Azerbaïdjan s'élevait à 16 tués et à 46 blessés.

As you see, no reported burning and killing as you claim, the only one reported was from Azeri autorities which was contradicted by another source(non-Armenian), but, here after the army was attacked, they pressurised their superiors to attack Azeri positions.

La Presse Le Monde, lundi 24 février 1992, p. B4

Repères

Nagorny-Karabakh: du conflit inter-ethnique à la menace de guerre

AFP

MOSCOU - Le conflit inter-éthnique entre Arméniens et Azerbaïdjanais pour le contrôle du Nagorny-Karabakh poursuit son escalade vers une véritable guerre entre les deux républiques du Caucase, sous le regard impuissant de la Communauté des États indépendants (CÉI).

Plus de 80 roquettes et obus tirés de Choucha, fief azeri près de Stépanakert, chef-lieu de la région autonome de l'Azerbaïdjan à majorité arménienne, se sont abattus hier sur la caserne d'un régiment de l'armée de la CÉI.

Les salves, qui ont tué un soldat et blessé 10 autres, dont deux officiers, ont provoqué l'exaspération des militaires qui exigent de l'état-major l'ordre de détruire les rampes azerbaïdjanaises, selon une information du Soviet Suprême (Parlement) du Nagorny- Karabakh confirmée par l'agence Itar-Tass

Again, as you see, the army was bombarded repeatdly, the Azeri side lunching missles attacking them under the pretext they are supporting the Armenians, while they were positioned disperatly requesting to react.

Capital of Karabakh under fire; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 24, 1992. pg. B.1.BRE

MOSCOW - The capital of the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan came under heavy artillery fire that killed at least seven people yesterday,...

Azerbaijanis attack remaining Soviet military bases; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 25, 1992. pg. A.9

MOSCOW - Azerbaijanis attacked the last remaining Soviet military base in the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh, killing two soldiers and wounded two others, news reports said yesterday. Azerbaijanis also fired rockets at the territory's administrative capital, Stepanakert, and seized several major munitions depots. ITAR-Tass said four civilians were also killed in Azerbaijani attacks, and at least 35 wounded.

Shall I add anything to this? And here is the answer... it is reported that they will answer back, this a day before the Khojaly tragedy.

Le Soleil Mardi 25 février 1992, p. A13

Les troupes de la CEI répliqueront dans le Haut-Karabakh

Reuter

MOSCOU - Les troupes de la Communauté des États indépendants stationnées en Transcaucasie ont reçu ordre de répliquer au cas où elles seraient attaquées, rapportait hier l'agence Itar-Tass.

Le commandement régional de la CEI a pris cette décision au lendemain de l'attaque par des forces azéries d'un régiment d'infanterie mécanisée basé à Stepanakert, capitale du Haut-Karabakh.

What followed, is what I have reported in the other newspaper article.

To this add what happened after.

Armenians, Azeris shatter short truce; [FIN Edition], Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 27, 1992. pg. A.17

The truce, called for 72 hours, took effect at 9 a.m. but was broken by midday as Azerbaijani forces fired on Armenian cities and Armenian militants attacked Azeri towns in the disputed enclave, officials and news reports said.

This morning, Azerbaijani forces with tanks and helicopters attacked the mostly Armenian region of Askeran in Nagorno-Karabakh, Armenian presidential aide Levon Dosikyan told The Associated Press.

From the other side, Azerbaijani presidential spokesperson Vagif Rustamov claimed that Armenian forces attacked the town of Agdam today, using artillery and machineguns. He said Armenian forces also were attacking other Azeri towns in the enclave, including Khodzhaly.

Iranian abandons ceasefire mission; [AM Edition], Reuter. Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 28, 1992. pg. A.19

Nagorno-Karabakh's ethnic Armenian leadership said Azeri forces launched a major offensive, penetrating 5 kilometres (3 miles) into the disputed territory and attacking the town of Askeran with tanks and missiles.

Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati abandoned plans to visit Nagorno-Karabakh, a mountainous territory claimed by both republics. He returned to the Azeri capital, Baku, and flew on to Armenia for talks with the Armenian leadership.

Armenian, Azeri shells shatter brief ceasefire in Nagorno- Karabakh; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 28, 1992. pg. A.7

In Agdam, Azerbaijan, officials of the main mosque said they buried 27 bodies yesterday, brought from an Azerbaijani town inside Nagorno-Karabakh that was captured Wednesday by Armenian militiamen.

Officials in Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan, estimated the deaths in Khojaly at 100, while Armenian officials in their capital, Yerevan, said only two Azerbaijanis were killed in the attack. An official from Baku said his government fears Azerbaijanis would turn against it if they knew how many had been killed.

Moscow pulls troops from enclave; [SA2 Edition], Special. Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 29, 1992. pg. A.18

Both Azerbaijan and Armenia have accused Moscow of siding with the enemy in the latest battle for Nagorno-Karabakh, a predominantly Armenian-inhabited region that is formally part of Azerbaijan.

Over the past few weeks, the 366th Regiment of the commonwealth army, which is stationed just outside the Nagorno-Karabakh capital, Stepanakert, has repeatedly come under fire from Azeri positions. Azerbaijan accused the regiment of helping Armenian irregulars.

Armenian officials in Nagorno-Karabakh have claimed to be building an army of about 7,000 men to defend the enclave from an estimated 20,000 Azeri militiamen.

CIS tells its troops to leave Nagorno-Karabakh; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 29, 1992. pg. C.6

MOSCOW - Troops of the former Soviet Union were ordered to withdraw to safety from Nagorno-Karabakh yesterday as rival Azeris and Armenians used helicopters and tanks in fighting for control of the disputed region, officials said.

Commonwealth troops began pulling out from Nagorno-Karabakh this year. The latest withdrawal is likely to be more of a blow to Armenia, which considered them a restraining force against Azeri fighters.

Azerbaijan's Interior Ministry said Armenian militants attacked the town of Shusha yesterday. It is the last Azeri stronghold in Nagorno-Karabakh.

Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Mar 1, 1992. pg. A.18

HAVANA (Reuter) - Cuba has accused former ally Russia of "vile and disloyal" betrayal for supporting U.S. criticism of Havana's human rights record.

MOSCOW (AP) - Armenian militants fired rockets and artillery shells at an Azerbaijani city outside the disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, both sides said yesterday. One report said it was the first such attack of the 4-year-old conflict. An Armenian official said Azerbaijan retaliated with attacks on Armenian villages inside the enclave.

Azerbaijani citizens flee rockets as Armenian forces launch attack; [FINAL Edition], PAUL QUINN-JUDGE. The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Mar 1, 1992. pg. B.6

AGDAM, Azerbaijan - In the first direct military conflict between two republics since the Soviet Union broke up in December, Armenian forces launched a rocket attack against an Azerbaijani city outside the disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, both sides reported yesterday.

An Armenian official said Azerbaijan retaliated with attacks on Armenian villages inside the enclave, and Azerbaijan said Armenian militants were massing on the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Three people were killed and 20 were wounded in the first attack late Friday afternoon, Azerbaijani officials said. Agdam is just inside the Azeri border from Nagorno-Karabakh, the predominantly Christian Armenian region inside Muslim Azerbaijan.

[ Thirteen-year-old Boris Hamidov is about to have... ], Juliet O'Neill, Southam News. CanWest News. Don Mills, Ont.: Mar 1, 1992. pg. 1

The boys are among refugees from the Azeri village of Khojaly, captured last week by Armenian paramilitary troops, reportedly backed by Russian troops from the former Soviet army.

Accounts by refugees and authorities helping them in Agdam contained many conflicting details on what happened in the latest of what Azerbaijan says is steady success by Armenians capturing Azeri villages in the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Some refugees reported seeing people killed, but the eyewitness accounts were on a much smaller scale than the death toll reported by the press service of Azeri president Ayez Mutalibov, quoting Khojaly prefect Elhan [Mamedov].

World-Wide: Dozens of Military Vehicles, Wall Street Journal. (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Mar 2, 1992. pg. A1

The commander of the ex-Soviet forces in Nagorno-Karabakh Azerbaijan ordered a withdrawal of the troops after they came under heavy attack during a week of intense fighting between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Ex-Soviet army to free regiment caught in battle; [PM Edition], (Reuter). Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Mar 2, 1992. pg. A.10

AGDAM, Azerbaijan (Reuter) - The former Soviet army prepared today to withdraw a rifle regiment caught up in the crossfire between Armenia and Azerbaijan over the disputed enclave of Nagorno- Karabakh.

Two convoys, including one of 91 vehicles, rolled through Agdam, an Azeri town of 150,000 on the edge of Nagorno-Karabakh on their way to the 366th motorized infantry regiment's base in the enclave's capital, Stepanakert.

Armenian officials said the troops represent their only hope of avoiding an all-out Azeri attack on Stepanakert. Militants have said they will lie down in front of departing CIS tanks.

Azeris bid to find victims of alleged refugee massacre; [FIN Edition], (Reuter). Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Mar 2, 1992. pg. A.1

AGDAM, Azerbaijan (Reuter) - Azeri authorities, horrified by the apparent massacre of refugees fleeing Armenian gunmen, sought helicopters today to bring the bodies out of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Armenia has denied atrocities or mass killings of Azeris after its well-armed irregulars captured Khojaly, the second biggest Azeri town in Nagorno-Karabakh, last Wednesday.

Azeri refugees say hundreds slaughtered; [AM Edition], (Reuter). Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Mar 2, 1992. pg. A.10

AGDAM, Azerbaijan (Reuter) - Azeri refugees, many of whom walked for days across snow-covered mountains, yesterday accused Armenian militants backed by Russian soldiers of killing hundreds in the disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Relatives of the dead, led by women beating their breasts and scratching their faces in grief, burst into a government guest house in this Azeri town to demand that steps be taken to evacuate corpses from Khojali, another Azeri stronghold just across the border inside Nagorno-Karabakh.

CIS moves to pull out troops; Azeri refugees accuse Armenians of killing hundreds; [FINAL Edition], The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Mar 2, 1992. pg. B.1.BRE

Two large convoys, including one of nearly 100 tanks, armored vehicles, troop carriers and missile trucks, drove down the main street of Agdam, an Azeri town on the border of the enclave, towards Stepanakert, capital of the territory claimed by both Armenia and Azerbaijan.

About 50 relatives of the dead, led by women beating their breasts and scratching their faces in grief, burst into a government guest house in this Azeri town yesterday to demand that steps be taken to evacuate corpses from Khojali, another Azeri stronghold just across the border inside Nagorno-Karabakh.

[ Moscow prepares withdrawal from Nagorno-Karabakh of Soviet... ], Juliet O'Neill, Southam News. CanWest News. Don Mills, Ont.: Mar 2, 1992. pg. 1

The pullout of former Soviet troops from Nagorno - Karabakh comes amid Azeri allegations of their involvement in a massacre of villagers, of selling and renting weapons and of siding with the Armenian enemy.

Armenia and the authorities of the Karabakh enclave now regard the former Soviet army as a buffer against Azeribaijan, if not an official ally. Armenia wanted the troops to stay.

Azerbaijan, which lost the support of Soviet interior troops when the Soviet Union broke up, now says it is losing the war for control of Karabakh territory, partly because Armenian national guards now have former Soviet army forces, equipment and weapons at their disposal.

World-Wide: Dozens of Civilians, Wall Street Journal. (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Mar 3, 1992. pg. A1

Dozens of civilians died as a result of intense Armenian artillery and rocket fire in the Azerbaijani town of Shusha in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh enclave. Armenia appealed for the UN's help in resolving the conflict.

Bloody retreat from ethnic enclave Armenian militants fire on army units; [FIN Edition], (AP-Reuter). Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Mar 3, 1992. pg. A.3

MOSCOW (AP-Reuter) - Armenian fighters attacked commonwealth troops today as the former Soviet soldiers prepared to withdraw from the embattled enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, killing at least one soldier.

Azeri officials have been recovering dozens of bodies, many mutiliated, after Armenian forces overran the town of Khojaly last week. Armenia denies allegations of a massacre.

The disputed region's majority Armenian population opposes the troop pullout, saying the regiment is a restraining force against an all-out Azeri attack on Stepanakert.

Azeris mourn victims of alleged massacre; [AM Edition], (Reuter). Toronto Star. Toronto, Ont.: Mar 3, 1992. pg. A.3

AGDAM, Azerbaijan (Reuter) - Dozens of bodies lay scattered around the fields of Nagorno-Karabakh yesterday, evidence of what has been described as the worst massacre in four years of fighting over the disputed territory.

[Assad Faradzhev] said the helicopter, bearing Red Cross markings and escorted by two MI-24 helicopters of the former Soviet army, succeeded in picking up only the three children before Armenian militants opened fire.

Armenia repeated denials that a slaughter of civilians had taken place and rejected Azeri claims that more than 1,000 were killed at Khojaly.

But, the thing is that after this, Azerbaijan Attacks Armenian Enclave, Financial Times (Mar 8, 1992)

Armenia under pressure of what happened to Khojaly, after being accused of massacre, request its army and Azeri army to be replaced by UN peacekeepers, that this is what happens: Azerbaijan rejected the use of U.N. peacekeeping troops to end four years of fighting with Armenia over the Caucasus Mountains enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh., Wall Street Journal Bowling Green (Mar 18, 1992).

With regard to 366 regiment see de Waal’s book:

В Степанакерте с августа 1988 года базировался 366-й мотострелковый полк. Офицеры этого полка начали помогать армянам, а военнослужащие подразделений 23-й дивизии в Гяндже стали сотрудничать с азербайджанцами. Анатолий Шабад стал очевидцем этой, по сути дела, приватизации Советской Армии.

"Части 23-й дивизии фактически воевали друг с другом: те подразделения, которые базировались в Степанакерте, открыто поддерживали армянские вооруженные силы. Для меня это было очевидно... и я наблюдал, как командир воинского подразделения в Степанакерте обеспечивал боевую поддержку армянской стороне, в то время как командир Будейкин в Гяндже, без сомнения, помогал азербайджанцам".

Около 50 из примерно 350 оставшихся солдат 366-го полка были армянами, включая и командира второго батальона майора Сейрана Оганяна. Для карабахских армян сам полк и его обширные запасы боевой техники были даром богов. Даже до августовского путча в Москве солдаты продавали оружие, или сдавали его напрокат. Американский правозащитник Скотт Хортон говорит, что в июле 1991 года некий офицер по имени Юрий Николаевич, приняв его за бизнесмена, предложил ему купить танк за 3 тысячи долларов. Рассказывали также, что армяне просто платили полковым офицерам водкой или рублями, чтобы те вели стрельбу или готовили оружие к бою.

Наиболее ценным имуществом 366-го полка были десять танков, причем другой тяжелой бронетехники в Нагорном Карабахе не было. В начале 1992 года армяне несколько раз "одалживали" эти танки. Азербайджанский прокурор Юсиф Агаев рассказывал, что в феврале он был в южном поселке Юхары Вейсаллы, когда туда прибыла полковая бронетехника для огневой поддержки наступления армян, развернутого с целью изгнания азербайджанского населения. [13]

You probably have an access to this book in English. The chapter is called War breaks out. It says that the CIS troops located in Stepanakert were openly fighting on Armenian side, and Russian parliamentarian Shabad said that he personally saw how the commander of the regiment in Stepanakert was providing military support to Armenians, and Shabad was sure that the commander of Russian troops in Ganja was helping Azeris. It also says that Armenians paid the officers with vodka or Russian rubles for shelling or servicing the weapons. One of the officers of the regiment offered an American journalist to buy a tank for 3000 USD. Actually, Azeris would have never shelled 366th regiment without any reason, they wouldn’t have wanted to create new enemies for themselves. It's not logical. Grandmaster 11:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I have provided VARIOUS sources, and what you do again, citing De Waal book. History is not written based on one partisan book which mimic neutrality. As I already told, de Waal is a friend of Goltz, he admited this already more than once, including during an interview given to an Armenian newspaper. While he admit that Goltz take a partisan position, he praise his book.

De Waal book alone is not an evidence of anything, for Khojali, he recycle various of Goltz clames, he even goes on to 'balance' the Armenian genocide 'claims' by the Azeri government claims of genocides of two million and a half perpetrated allagedly by Armenians. While he present it as claims his aim is to conterbalance and present the Armenian genocide 'claims' as much of an Armenian position than the Azernaijani government fabricated accusation of genocide.

If you don't mind, I will trust the Canadian newspapers account, I guess this time around it seems that the Memorial too doesn't seem to cover what you claim.

To Francys, I think it could be a good idea that you show our friend here, why other language words are included in the lead of some articles, I have attempted but without success. If someone want to have the last word fine, but at least he should make a point and not just throw that there is no argument provided by the other just to creat an illusion of making some sense. Fad (ix) 14:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

How come that de Waal is partisan? Just because he’s friends with Thomas Goltz? You should try better, Fadix. You were the one that told me that it is not good to discriminate sources this way. De Waal is a well respected journalist and worked on both sides of the conflict. His book is one of the kind attempt to analyze the history of the conflict, and he’s being criticized for his book from both sides. Also note that de Waal cites Russian Duma deputy Shabad, who was a close friend of Starovoytova and is known for his pro-Armenian position. But even this person confirmed that 366th regiment was fighting on the Armenian side. Grandmaster 18:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

De Waal in his analysis already suggest by introductions in his chapters that he will be taking the stance of 'two parties as equally guilty,' he is one of those British scholars that still maintain the old Anglo-saxon interpretation that neutrality means to conterbalance and with a 50-50 distribution. when an author goes on to devote a considerable space to the Azerbaijan government claims of 2.5 millio killed by Armenians as an Azerbaijani genocide to conterbalance the Armenian genocide which he does everything to cover in a way that it could only be interpreted as an 'Armenian claim' one can't do else then wondering of the value of such a book. The question here is not about the 366e regiment here, the question here is about whatever or not the 366e backed the Armenians and interveened because the Azeris position were bombarding its position. You claim that the Azeri position attacked them because the 366e was burning villages. Yet, I have posted every newspapers I had access to, there is one instance of such a claim from the Azeri government which in the same article is contradicted by a more neutral source giving a casulty figure of 2 persons. The rest of the articles discribes the situation of the 366e being attacked and disperatly waiting an order to attack back without getting it and this before it obtained hours before the attack in Khojali after they were bombarded again. This is what newspapers report and yet you want an equal wait for something that has yet to be sourced properly. I have provided at least two books for the figure of more than 150, yet it wasn't satisfying for you, but one book is satisfying enough to build a large part of your argumentation. That De Waal is a friend of Goltz is not the issue here, that he praises Goltz overly Azeri nationalistic work IS!!! De Wall interpretation of what weant in Khojali is highly inspired and amazingly similar to Goltz, but yet, you shout 'pro-Armenian' here and there like the example above, but have no problem overusing the work of someone who gives himself the task, and don't even hide it, to conterbalance from each sides scratching to find equivalents. The only he wasn't able to do so in Sumgait, but yet finally succeed juggling and finding a similar cases with the Germans nearly a century ago. So give us all a brake, and start using other sources. I am here researching the matter in archives and various books but yet you haven't done your homework on your side. Fad (ix) 19:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Fadix, but I’m gonna use de Waal as a source, he’s book is as good as anything else. And he refers to sources too. As for 366th regiment, many of the Russian officers were mercenaries for Armenians and the commander of the 2nd battalion was an ethnic Armenian Seyran Oganian, who is currently the minister of defense for Karabakh Armenians. This fact speaks for itself. Azerbaijani government many times informed the Russian government that this regiment was involved in the hostilities on the Armenian side, but Russian authorities at the time refused to withdraw it. They did it only after the massacre, in fact, they dissolved it and fired all officers from military service, though did not prosecute any of them. Think for yourself, why would Azerbaijani forces shell this regiment, if they were neutral? What was the point in making enemies with them? The answer is clear, they responded to the attacks in which this regiment took an active part. Grandmaster 20:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You are twisting my words again. I never said De Waal should not be used, I simply said that you can not present a single book as sole source of what happened. I provided VARIOUS newspaper articles and full coverage and you are dismissing the huge amount of materials on the basis of a single book. I have supported my arguments by presenting more than one book but still haven't claimked that my position is the truth like you are doing. Fad (ix) 17:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

But I don’t argue with what your sources say. They say that the base of 366th regiment in Stepanakert was shelled and they said they would respond. But it does not mean that they did not attack Azeri villages before that. According to both HRW and Memorial Armenian forces burned a number of Azeri villages before Khojaly and killed civilians. Azerbaijani government accused this regiment of supporting Armenian in these attacks, and de Waal’s book confirms this. It is not just one book, it’s rather a collection of sources. He cites among others a deputy of Russian parliament. Grandmaster 12:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I served in Artsakh myself as a volunteer (after the war) and I know many veterans, none of them ever mentioned anything about Russian help other than on a mercenary basis. The only help most people cited was from the Yezidi Kurds of Armenia. Just curious, what is the ethnic background of this Shabad guy? Is he just saying this out of thin air or he presented actual evidence? Any documents? Videos? Photographs?--Eupator 18:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Anatoly Shabad is a Russian politician, who always traveled to the region to report the facts from the Armenian side. He never actually was on the other side of the conflict, as far as I know. He’s known to be one of Staravoytova’s supporters. But even this guy says that he personally saw the commander of the regiment providing military support to Armenians. At the same time he accuses the commander of the Russian troops in Ganja of supporting Azeris. And Russian officers of the regiment were providing help to Armenians for money, as mercenaries, and there were also Armenian officers in that regiment, including current minister of defense of the separatist regime. Grandmaster 18:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like hearsay. Former-USSR soviet mercenaries were used by both sides, that's known by everyone. I personally saw several graves of Ukrainian mercs working for Azeris shot by Armenians--Eupator 18:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, mercenaries fought on both sides. But Fadix claims that the officers of the regiment were not mercenaries and they attacked Khojaly in response to Azeri attacks on them, while there are facts that they participated in attacks on Azerbaijani towns and villages before the massacre in Khojaly. That’s why they were considered combatants and not a neutral force and were a legitimate target. The officers of the regiment did it for money, de Waal also cites an American journalist Scott Horton, to whom a Russian officer Yuri Nikolayevich offered a tank for $3000. Grandmaster 19:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't twist my words. I have posted without censuring anything, from BOTH SIDES, you can check... THERE WAS ONE INSTANCE REPORTED OF BURNING AND MASSACRES, THE NEWSPAPER IN QUESTION PRESENT THE POSITION OF THE AZERI AUTORITIES AND ANOTHER FROM A MORE INDEPENDENT SOURCE, ANOTHER EVENT (BOTH NOT EVEN INVOLVING THE 366) REPORTED OF FEB. 11 FOLLOWING THE REPORT THAT THE AZERI SIDE WERE USING IRANIAN MERCENERIES. The warning of the regiment answering back has created a reaction from the WHOLE WEST!!! They were blocked BY ORDER as it was reported in the newspapers, they attacked hours after they were given the order which was hours before they tried penetrating Khojali. This is what was reported in the press, on the other hand, you propose something that could only be confirmed by a single book, while I have wasted hours researching the databases and then posting those newspapers chronologically since every newspapers don't use the same databases. Usage of mercenaries has no relevency with the claim that the army started burning villages and massacring people, the only time this was claimed was from Azeri officials and this was not confirmed by the more independent coverage of that event. Here, you can in no way claim that I am not neutral, since I have not censured the coverages I did not like... Fad (ix) 19:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The regiment had no official written orders to attack Khojaly. That’s what Armenian militants said to Memorial. Your sources prove only one thing, that Azeri forces shelled the base of 366 regiment in Stepanakert. See your source:

Over the past few weeks, the 366th Regiment of the commonwealth army, which is stationed just outside the Nagorno-Karabakh capital, Stepanakert, has repeatedly come under fire from Azeri positions. Azerbaijan accused the regiment of helping Armenian irregulars.

But why did Azeri forces do it? They must have had a really good reason for doing that, otherwise they were creating a serious enemy for themselves. Azerbaijani side accused this regiment of helping Armenians, and had a good reason to do so. Russian parliamentarian confirms that such claims were not baseless. Khojaly was just the last in a chain of similar attacks on Azeri settlements that resulted in a complete ethnic cleansing of NK from Azeri population. See reports of HRW and Memorial. Armenian militants killed civilians in those villages as well. And they were using armored vehicles of 366th regiment. The most active part in the attacks on Azerbaijani villages took 2nd battalion of this regiment, the commander of which was current minister of defense of Karabakh separatists Seyran Oganian. Russian officers were selling their weapons for money and fought as mercenaries. According to Mutalibov [14], the president of Azerbaijan at the time, the attack on Khojaly was a punishment to Azerbaijan for its refusal to sign an agreement with Moscow about joining the treaty of collective security. Russian generals, who according to Mutalibov made decisions at the time in post-Soviet territory, took their revenge by turning a blind eye to the actions of this regiment or even encouraging it to support the Armenian side. Anyway, the actions of this regiment cannot be justified by anything, and Memorial report says:

В штурме Ходжалы принимали участие военнослужащие 366 мотострелкового полка, принадлежащего к войскам Содружества Независимых Государств. По мнению правозащитного центра «Мемориал» факты участия военнослужащих СНГ в военных операциях и боевых действиях в регионе конфликта, а также факты передачи военного имущества формированиям конфликтующих сторон требуют специального расследования.

Military personnel of 366th motor rifle regiment of CIS army participated in the assault on Khojaly. In the opinion of Memorial Human Rights Center, the facts of participation of CIS military personnel in military operations and hostilities in the conflict area, as well as facts of transfer of military equipment to the armed forces of conflicting sides require a special investigation. Grandmaster 12:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You aren't here to write an encyclopedic article but to advance your POV Grandmaster, you still repeat the same thing and doesn't even try to embelish it. Find another person to waste his time, I done with this. Fad (ix) 17:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Your sources don’t prove that participation of 366th regiment in the attack on Khojaly was a self-defense or somehow justified by the shelling of their base by Azerbaijani forces. Your sources only prove that they were shelled, and that their commanders threatened to take measures to prevent it, but they don’t prove that 366th regiment was not involved in the previous attacks on Azerbaijani settlements. I presented the source that says they were involved in such attacks, were supporting one of the conflicting sides and therefore were a legitimate target. Also Oganian must have done something to earn his current promotion as a minister, and at that time he served in that regiment as a battalion commander. If 366th did not want to be shelled, all they needed to do was to refrain from attacking and shelling Azerbaijani villages and towns, and not to commit another crime. Simple as that. If you have sources to prove that they were innocent victims and Azerbaijani forces attacked them without any reason, you are welcome to present them. But accusing me of POV push is not the best solution. Grandmaster 07:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Links

Khojaly.net:

• "This is a genocide perpetrated by violent Armenian blood thirstier!"
• "This genocide is appealing us to vengeance! And that must be done until the blood of genocide victims will be subdued. Till the end of that vengeance, peace is not possible!"

Is anyone else disturbed by this? Hakob 18:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You actually looked at that site? That calls for its removal as per Wiki policy against racism and promotion of hate and violence.--Eupator 18:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

resolutions

i think a new headline should be made for the resolutions made by un, eu, cis, and other organisations. Karabakh 09:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Karabakh

Slaughter

Almost the entire article is about how to call this slaughter this and that but no mention of the people who's head's been cut off, who has been burned alive, girls raped to death, old folks tortured, etc. The brutality of this slaughter should be added. Baku87 07:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87

As an Azari I think there is a lot of Anti-Armenian POV

This is clearly a POV. I am an Azari and I think it is POV, you know a lot the things the government in Baku says are totaly fabricated. In fact a lot of the massacres in the region were by elemts from outside, i.e Russians, Turks, and even Europeans. Keeo this in mind. The wording be used is very anti-Armenian and seems aimed at painting a picture rather than being academic. 69.196.164.190

You think that if you use a different IP no one will know that you are banned user User:72.57.230.179, evading the block? Grandmaster 21:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Tag

Numerous neutrality and fact issues have been raised regarding this article, and been ignored. In particular, MarshallBagrhamyan repeatedly stated the need to include the military significance of the town Khojalu, and why Armenians had to actually attack it (due to constant shellings of Stepanakert). Despite continuos reminders of this issue, it's been dismissed. Furthermore, a very important piece is missing--Azeri president Mutalibov's statement that the massacre was perpetrated by Azeri opposition. Again, this has been raised, and ignored. Furthermore, the whole International Response section is geared towards anti-Armenian statements. I see no reason to copy entire sections from various statements by this or that body or individual. There were some reactions that actually doubted the Azeri claims, particularly those by CSI (Christian Solidarity International), which again is omitted. The Armenian response is reduced to a minimum, without any details as to why Armenians maintain their position.

Therefore, until these and other issues have been resolved, it is necessary to restore the disputed tag.--TigranTheGreat 00:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Undue weight. If you want to add information, add it. But this article is not "un neutral", nor is it "factually inaccurate". If I didn't think higher of you, I'd think you were making a point. - FrancisTyers · 00:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

No point, but the article itself is highly stacked in favor of the Azeri position, and I have told you about it before. Thanks for making changes to it, they did make some improvements. But undue weight is about not giving equal weight to a minority view--it does authorize reducing the minority view to a mere minimum, which definitely needs to be corrected.--TigranTheGreat 01:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, you see no problem with the International Response section? On Sumgait page you argued that we don't need to copy entire quotes with all its phrasings--that we should reword it. The whole section is geared towards demonizing Armenians.--TigranTheGreat 01:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I would be very happy to have a section called "International reaction" in the Sumgait Massacre article describing the positions of various international groups in similar detail. The section does not demonise Armenians. I have no idea where you got that idea. I don't see anything like "Christian Armenians brutalised the helpless Muslim inhabitants in a manner reminiscent of the crusades". Think for a second what the section would look like if we based the article on Azerbaijani government sources. I would also be happy to include a proportional section on the Armenian denialist position, providing the international position was more broadly covered. - FrancisTyers · 18:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It appears that Tigran is trying to make a point in response to Sumgait article. CSI is a Christian fundamentalist organization, ran by a prominent pro-Armenian lobbyist Caroline Cox. Looks like you guys have serious problems with providing any unbiased sources to back up your position.

Here's another prominent Armenian lobbyist US congressman Frank Pallone praising her collegue at a party, organized by the Armenian diaspora and attended by the leader of NK separatists Arkady Ghoukassian:

Special guest of honor, Congressman Frank Pallone who received a standing ovation, has been instrumental in garnering the support of 127 members (30%) of the U.S. House of Representatives for the Armenian Caucus in Congress. He expressed the hope that Congress will give Armenia $75 million next year, and stressed that the North-South Highway is a "lifeline" for the future of Karabagh, and paid tribute to Baroness Cox as a "true Armenian nationalist who would give her life for Armenia and Karabagh." [15]

And while Cox is used as a reference on Sumgait massacre, Tigran and others still claim that the article is neutral. Grandmaster 04:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Grandmaster: It appears that Tigran is trying to make a point in response to Sumgait article It appears that you chronically lie on talk pages and attempt to fanatically push your POV. However, I follow the rules of assuming good faith, and so will you. This article is major POV issues, which will need to be corrected, so adding a POV tag is warranted. Whatever the CSI's bias is, its response must be included under rules of NPOV. And Palone's statements about Cox are not fact. Cox is reputable, and can be used as source.--TigranTheGreat 08:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Point out POV issues, if they exist. And if you caught me lying, please show where and when. As for Cox, it is a fact that Pallone called her a "true Armenian nationalist who would give her life for Armenia and Karabagh." She did not even try to deny it. It is also true that she is an “Honorary Citizen of Karabagh”, head of Armenian-British Friendship Group in British parliament (lobbying certain interests), and it is true that she said at the same meeting that “Karabagh is holy Armenian land”, etc. Doesn’t sound too neutral, does it? Grandmaster 08:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's more about her neutrality: [16] Grandmaster 08:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

She is also quite islamophobic: "Islam is not inherently a religion of peace," Caroline Cox said. Nonetheless, "we have to give the hand of friendship to moderate Muslims." [17] Grandmaster 09:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate Tag?

This article is tagged under the category of "nonwar-armed confrontations," yet the text of the article and basic common sense would indicate that the Khojaly Massacre happened during a time of war. Unless this can be explained in a satisfactory way, I'm removing the tag and replacing it with a war crimes category, which I believe is a more accurate description of the event. Augustgrahl

Yes, I also think it should be in the war crimes category. Grandmaster 04:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Armenian Relocation also occured during the war. ~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.76.237.169 (talk) 17:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

Discussion

The reason for my revert was that a big chunk of text was removed from the article and replaced with unsourced poorly writen Azeri POV. Vartanm 17:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've been reverting this guy's edits for two days now. I've requested that the page be semi-protected, the repeated removal of text and introduction of potentially copyrighted text can be considered as vandalism. -- Augustgrahl 17:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

de Waal and Goltz quotes

added relevant quotes from de Waal and Goltz's books. Will add more from other Western authors. --AdilBaguirov 08:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC) Also added a quote from Congressman Dan Burton, and an appeal from Khojaly survivors and IDPs to the international community. --AdilBaguirov 08:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

As promised, adding another quote from Hugh Pope, "Sons of the conquerors: the rise of the Turkic world", New York: The Overlook Press, 2006, ISBN-10 1-58567-804-X, "In February 1992, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross, at least 600 people from Hodjali, mostly Azeri civilians, were killed as Armenian troops forced them to flee late one winter night. The Azeris say many more died. It was Azerbaijan's worst catastrophe in Nagorno Karabagh. Even the lower figure represents one twelth of the Azeri dead in the whole six-year war. Overall, during the war years between 1988 and 1994, one in ten of all Azeris were displaced from their original homes." (p. 52)

"Alef Hajiev, the militia leader, helped Hodjali cling on for a few months with little food, no gas, no electricity and firefights around a contracting perimeter." (p. 59) --AdilBaguirov 04:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Recent additions / edits

Hi, we had quite some problems with this article in the past. Before the recent additions, we had a consensus version that was NPOV and hadn't changed in quite a while. We had avoided including the Armenian denialist position, even though it exists, and also avoided including the more emotionally charged Azerbaijani point of view. This is a good thing. Now, a brief rundown on the recent additions:

• Additionally, dozens of Khojaly children are missing.^[1]

We shouldn't be using geocities sites as references. If this was the other side, you'd be having none of it.

Francis, I agree that Geocities should not be generally used, as shouldn't be used any free or otherwise amauterish websites, or samizdat publications. However, in this case Geocities is only a repository for an authoritative source -- the provider of the information is the Human Rights Center of Azerbaijan (HRCA), which is the most active and respected Human Rights defender in Azerbaijan. Its founder and director, Eldar Zeynalov, has been at odds with the government of Azerbaijan ever since the establishment of the organization, and pro-government officials have been creating a lot of hysteria against him in the press throughout the 1990s and early 2000s (I haven't followed the status recently). His information is used and relied upon by all international organizations, whether HRW, Amnesty Intl., PACE, US State Department, etc. So he is a very credible source and this list is straight from HRCA. I am sure we can get an affidavit from him via e-mail as well, certifying that the information is correct. Additionally, I have visited a Khojaly children camp, and have a photocopy (photo-shot) of the document, which lists the names, DOB, etc., of the children who lost either all or one of their parents and grandparents. I of course have photos of the camp and the children, too, all of which I am intending to post on this page and release copyright to Wikipedia. At any case, we can remove the Geocities reference, no problem, but why remove the sentence itself -- I don't think anyone doubts that children died during the massacre.

Additionally, we should note somewhere that the Parliament of Azerbaijan held discussions of the massacre in 1994, and thus gave it a legal opinion. Also, the 1998 Presidential decree on the Azerbaijani Genocide should be mentioned, as it lists Khojaly as one of the most important events in the string of massacres. Of course, both of those should be clearly identified as Azerbaijani sources/view.

• As Hugh Pope remarks, "In February 1992, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross, at least 600 people from Hodjali, mostly Azeri civilians, were killed as Armenian troops forced them to flee late one winter night. The Azeris say many more died. It was Azerbaijan's worst catastrophe in Nagorno Karabagh. Even the lower figure represents one twelth of the Azeri dead in the whole six-year war. Overall, during the war years between 1988 and 1994, one in ten of all Azeris were displaced from their original homes." ^[2]

This lengthy addition is irrelevant as we already quote the death toll. If we have the ICRC reference, we should add it to the intro. The opinion of Hugh Pope is just repeating what we already have and is redundant.

Hugh Pope is a 1) major Western journalist, who speaks the local languages and has been posted in the greater region for decades and 2) is an eyewitness to before- and after- the massacre, knew some of the key officials and defenders, such as A.Hajiyev. His writings are thus important, especially since he is balanced, doesn't have a horse in the race. Also, I don't have the ICRC link, whilst Hugh Pope without a doubt has correctly cited it.

• The Khojaly massacre was the culmination of hostilities against the civilian population. "Hundreds, possibly thousands, were slaughtered in a turkey shoot of civilians and their handful of defenders. There were 477 that (one) day, a number that did not include those missing and presumed dead", writes Thomas Goltz, who was the first Western journalist to visit the scene of massacre.^[3]

We should be avoiding using emotive terms like "turkey shoot". We already have the death toll and the fact that they were shot. Along with the fact that there are missing and presumed dead. What factual information does this add?

Francis, the "turkey" word is a citation from Goltz, another very prominent journalist, and who is the first Western journalist to be at the site, and is an eyewitness, having been to the town before and after the massacre too. The factual information is the 477 dead he counted.

• Eyewitness journalist Hugh Pope provides background on the state of the town before the massacre: "Alef Hajiev, the militia leader, helped Hodjali cling on for a few months with little food, no gas, no electricity and firefights around a contracting perimeter." ^[4]

I wouldn't be averse to having a background section, detailing some of the prior actions in the war, and the state of the place when it was attacked. But this has to be done carefully, with consensus.

This provides only very brief background, and seems very important, as it shows that the defenders were in essential blockade and unable to give much resistance, much less attack (which was one of the early excuses that were heard, that allegedly Khojaly defenders were bombing Khankendi/Stepanakert.

• In 2005, the displaced population and survivors of Khojaly made an appeal to the United Nations (UN), the Council of Europe (CoE) and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).^[5]

What was the appeal.

The appeal is in the PDF document - we can include excerpts from it, but I didn't, just provided a link and basic info.

• Recently, the matter has been raised in the United States House of Representatives. Congressman Dan Burton drew the attention of his colleagues in his statement on 17 February 2005: "Ironically and tragically, none of these Members has ever once mentioned the ethnic cleansing carried out by the Armenians during the Armenia-Azerbaijan war which ended a mere decade ago." He concluded with the following appeal: "This is not the ringing condemnation that the survivors of Khojaly deserve, but it is an important first step by an international community that has too long been silent on this issue. Congress should take the next step and I hope my colleagues will join mein standing with Azerbaijanis as they commemorate the tragedy of Khojaly. The world should know and remember."^[6]

Azer.com is not a reliable source. Grandmaster you know this. Furthermore this quotation gives undue weight to the opinion of Dan Burton.

Why is Azer.com not a reliable source? It is published in the USA, and its editor and founder is an American. It's verifiable and is authoritative as has been around since 1993, publishes a high-quality magazine, features interviews with several very prominents US, international and Azerbaijani officials and figures, etc. Meanwhile, I can easily provide the original Congressional Record in PDF format or HTML if needed. Con. Burton is important, as he is a senior member of the Congress, and until recently was the only member of Congress to say more than a few words about the massacre (since then, another congressman spoke). I think one quote from a senior member of Congress makes a lot of sense in the article. --AdilBaguirov 04:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That's all for now, I'll see if I can make a start on that background section. - Francis Tyers · 14:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Serge quote, the source is in Russian, but the quote is here in English, who did the translation. Can you find an English language source for that ? Is de Waal talking about the same quote? Perhaps this should be included, but it should be discussed here first. - Francis Tyers · 15:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The quote is taken from de Waal's book, Black Garden, which is written in English. We have full title and ISBN number in the article. Grandmaster 15:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Then what is the BBC reference for? - Francis Tyers · 15:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

BBC published this book in Russian in full in its Russian website. English language version is not available for free, but you can read some pages here: [18] The quote is taken from the English original of the book. Grandmaster 11:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I reckon we could include it, but could you give the full quote from the book. - Francis Tyers · 12:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Page 172:

Asked about the taking of Khojali, the Armenian military leader Serzh Sarkisian said carefully, "We don't speak loudly about these things. “A lot was exaggerated” in the casualties, and the fleeing Azerbaijanis had put up armed resistance, he claimed. Sarkisian's summation of what had happened, however, was more honest and more brutal: “But I think the main point is something different. Before Khojali, the Azerbaijanis thought that they were joking with us, they thought that the Armenians were people who could not raise their hand against the civilian population. We were able to break that [stereotype]. And that's what happened. And we should also take into account that amongst those boys were people who had fled from Baku and Sumgait”. Sarkisian's account throws a different light on the worst massacre of the Karabakh war, suggesting that the killings may, at least in part, have been a deliberate act of mass killing as intimidation. Grandmaster 16:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say we should include some of the quote, but leave out de Waals interpretation. We should include the fact that he claims that "a lot was exaggerated" and "the fleeing Azerbaijanis put up armed resistance", along with the more longer quote.

Armenian military leader Serzh Sarkisian states that the perpetrators of the massacre were people who fled from Sumgait and Baku, and that "a lot was exaggerated" and "the Azerbaijanis put up armed resistance". However, he also states that, "Before Khojali, the Azerbaijanis thought that they were joking with us, they thought that the Armenians were people who could not raise their hand against the civilian population. We were able to break that [stereotype]."

How about that? - Francis Tyers · 16:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, it is important to provide both the full quote and opinion of de Waal, because it gives an insight to the motives of the massacre, and it is an important aspect that we need to reflect. My proposal:

According to Serge Sarkisian, long-time Defense Minister and Chairman of Security Council of Armenia, “A lot was exaggerated” in the casualties, and the fleeing Azerbaijanis had put up armed resistance. At the same time he stated: “before Khojali, the Azerbaijanis thought that they were joking with us, they thought that the Armenians were people who could not raise their hand against the civilian population. We were able to break that [stereotype]. And that's what happened. And we should also take into account that amongst those boys were people who had fled from Baku and Sumgait". In the opinion of Thomas de Waal, "Sarkisian's account throws a different light on the worst massacre of the Karabakh war, suggesting that the killings may, at least in part, have been a deliberate act of mass killing as intimidation". Grandmaster 20:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your re-wording of the Sarkisian quote, but disagree that Thomas de Waals point of view should be included -- unless we include another POV on this quote. - Francis Tyers · 08:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Francis, don't you think that the quote pits de Waal against Sarkissian, and de Waal's POV is essentially countered with Sarkissian's POV that "a lot was exaggerated", etc? It looks like by including the whole quote, it will be NPOV by definition, since both primary actors will speak (indeed, Sarkissian represents Armenian POV, whilst de Waal doesn't represent Azerbaijani POV -- and his book angered many in Baku, where he is considered pro-Armenian). --AdilBaguirov 09:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Adil here. De Waal a third party observer, and his opinion is important as it sheds light on possible motives of the massacre. We do not violate neutrality by quoting him, as he does not represent the Azerbaijani side. Grandmaster 14:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Did some work on the page, added the quotes, new info, removed GeoCities URL from HRCA's report, adopted above compromise version of Sarkisian's quote. --adil 07:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

problems in all NK War cycle articles

In light of Francis' comments, I'd like to point out problems in other articles in the NK War cycle. The thing is, if correctly-cited, verifiable and authoritative quotes from Hugh Pope, Thomas Goltz, Con. Burton, the US-published magazine Azerbaijan International, or the Azerbaijan government opposition organization HRCA are to be trimmed or omitted from the article (the latter two because they potentially represent the Azeri POV), then what looks like less authoritative and clearly Armenian POV quotes should be removed from other pages:

I) This page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maraghar_Massacre

1) First reference to: http://www.nkrusa.org/nk_conflict/ethnic_cleansing_campaigns.shtml#maragha - This is of course not acceptable for clear and obvious reasons.

2) Forth reference to "Ethnic Cleansing in Progress, War in Nagorno Karabakh, by Caroline Cox and John Eibner, Institute for Religious Minorities in the Islamic World, Zurich, London, Washington, 1993" -- a very long quote from a well-known pro-Armenian Baroness Cox. At very least the quote should be trimmed, as it's undue weight.

II) This page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kelbajar

1) has way too much of Melkonian's "My Brother's Road" references -- that's both undue weight and Armenian POV.

2) Contains an external link to http://www.nkrusa.org/nk_conflict/armed_conflict.shtml - This is of course not acceptable for clear and obvious reasons.

III) This page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shusha

1) Contains several references to Melkonian's book and to another Armenian POV author of Levon Chorbajian, but not a single one to an ethnic Azerbaijani writer to balance it out.

2) Contains an external link to: http://www.nkr.am/eng/gov/Image14.jpg - This is of course not acceptable for clear and obvious reasons.

IV) This page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ring

Contains an external link to an Armenian website, where the video is not even available http://www.mrav.net/en/videos_en.asp

V) This page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumgait_Pogrom

1) Contains an external link to: http://sumgait.info/sumgait/sumgait-eng/sumgayit-victims-eng.htm - This is of course not acceptable for clear and obvious reasons.

2) Seven (7) references to Armenian author Shahmuratian, Samvel -- this is a definition of "undue weight".

3) In addition to Shahmuratian, another ethnic Armenian author is featured: Malkasian, Mark. Only once is an Azeri author cited, and even then in co-authorship with a Russian author.

Changes to bring these pages in compliance with Wikipedia's policy should be made in any case, since nearly all of them deal with Armenian POV, whilst in case of Khojaly page only one or two of the above-mentioned cases deal with potential Azerbaijani POV. --AdilBaguirov 04:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirely. Most of the massacre articles suck. Seriously suck. This one is good. Don't make it suck. Good luck in your work. - Francis Tyers · 08:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

thanks. I will make an effort to accurately cleanup the above-mentioned stuff from the respective articles -- incase of URLs it's easy, but undue weight is harder, so I will need help of other interested users. --AdilBaguirov 09:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I expect Aivazovsky to provide explanation of his revert of Adil's and Francis' edits. Grandmaster 14:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

There nonsense POV don't add bs. Artaxiad 20:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't excuse your language, and I don't appreciate your vandalism in removing fully sourced, authoritative and verifiable quotes. And you are not an expert, and should not speak for Aivazovsky. Removing congressional speeches by senior members, removing info on Alef Hajiyev whose role in defense of the town is noted in all chronicles about Khojaly massacre, removing the info on Khojaly survivors' appeal, and other quotes from Goltz, Pope, etc., is not the answer. A compromised citation of de Waal's quote and removal of HRCA's weblink were already done. --adil 05:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Try and compromise instead of 1) Trying to paint the Armenians in as bad light as possible, 2) stacking up countless quotations which add nothing to the text. Please could you outline how the opinion of one writer (de Waal) qualifies for entry? - Francis Tyers · 07:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Francis, why do you think that de Waal is not notable? I think he is, he wrote the most thorough research on the history of the conflict, and he is quoted in many other articles, such as Ziya Bunyadov. I see no reason why we cannot quote him here. Please check his details here: [19] [20] [21] Grandmaster 07:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say his books were unworthy sources. I think they are good sources. I just said that his opinion was not particularly notable, and not worth including. To be honest, the Serge quote says enough as it is. Without de Waals flamboyant addition. - Francis Tyers · 09:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but since there was no problem quoting de Waal in the article about Ziya Bunyadov, I think it should be alright to quote him here too. We do not violate neutrality here, as the quote is fully attributed to a third party source. Grandmaster 09:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

That is a bio, not a historical article on a massacre. Can you not see the difference? (Incidentally I don't think those quotes add anything to the article, they appear to be there solely for the purpose of discrediting the man). - Francis Tyers · 09:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the article about Bunyadov was created with character assasination purposes presumably by socks of a certain banned user. But since some people insist on inclusion of those quotes, which are an opinion of this journalist, I'm sure we can use his opinion here too, considering that it provides an insight to the possible motives of the massacre. I understand that maintaining the neutrality of this article is your main concern, but I don't think Armenian users would object to quoting de Waal here. Grandmaster 09:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

He doesn't give any more insight that Serge does. Perhaps we should invite some (historically reasonable) Armenian users to comment? (e.g. Tigran and Clevelander -- or Fadix) perhaps? - Francis Tyers · 10:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not? I think it is a good idea. Grandmaster 10:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Francis, when I wrote that Pope, Goltz, de Waal are all very authoritative authors and their books and articles are definitive when it comes to studying NK conflict in the West, that's exactly what I meant. I also invited you to check it out for yourself. There is no question that de Waal, for one, is authoritative and notable. Even though his book infuriated many in both Baku and Yerevan, and he is not a scholar, but a journalist and narrative historian, he is an expert and specialist on Caucasus, covering the region for a long-time, knowing well both North and South Caucasus. His quote is very important -- no wonder even recently, Feb 15, 2007, Congressman Bill Shuster noted it in his speech about Khojaly massacre.[22], [23]

Whenever you say "authoritative", a squirrel cries. - Francis Tyers · 09:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

 :) Why? These individuals spent years in the region, in case of Goltz, were in the front during military action, in case of Pope and de Waal, crossed the Line of Contact after the 1994 cease-fire agreement. Thus, they have a greater insight into the military situation -- which is the most important in any war -- than even many people in any of the armies. And having been published by large, notable publishing houses, given many lectures, written many articles, etc., all makes them authoritative. It doesn't mean they can't be wrong or don't make mistakes -- everyone does -- but they are still authoritative. --adil 09:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, Goltz and Pope are eyewitness journalists, and that alone is enough to make them part of the article. I also cannot understand wby remove the quote that mentions the National Hero of Azerbaijan, Alef Hajiyev. He is written about especially a lot in Goltz's book. He was the militia leader and in charge, and is just as important as Monte Melkonian to Armenians. Only thing he didn't have a brother with a US passport to write about him and publish as a book.

No it isn't. There were plenty of eyewitness accounts. We can't include them all. We had no end of problems on the Sumgait article including "eyewitness accounts". Eyewitness accounts are no more necessary for inclusion than anything else. I agree that the Alef Hajiyev quote should be included. To conterpart the Serge quote — but there is no quote from Alef Hajiyev currently in the article! Not the recent version or your version. - Francis Tyers · 09:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You are right about eyewitness account, but we are not including the opinion of refugees/IDPs and survivors, or the miltiary personell. Only third-party sources from authoritative Western observers. They beat Caroline Cox any time of the day in terms of impartiality, yet she has a huge quote in Maraghar article. Meanwhile, on Alef Hajiyev [24]. --adil 09:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You can't compare this article with other articles. Because many are hopelessly Armenian biased. That is no excuse of having this one Azerbaijani biased. What quote do you want to include from that PDF ? - Francis Tyers · 09:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Same applies to every other quote. This article is about an important event, and it deserves to have mentioning by authoritative sources. If we just write it, we get accused of OR and POV by the Armenian editors. Here we just quote the sources directly, adding very little, only in terms of interlinking descriptions -- but are now asked to do-away with quotes. Why, so that again start a cycle of disputes, with some editors coming in and reverting and asking citations for each and every word?! We should keep all those quotes, they do not detract from the article. --adil 08:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The quotes will not be included. - Francis Tyers · 09:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I really don't see why they shouldn't - they do provide valuable insight, be it of statistical nature or personal (e.g, about Alef) or other. --adil 09:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Work out what information they contain. Then add that information. Not the opinions. - Francis Tyers · 09:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

On unrelated note, I started an article about Thomas de Waal. Grandmaster 09:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Francis, you removed a lot of quotes, man, it took me a lot of time to research them and put them together. The article was giving full information without any POV from editors, relying strictly on third-party Western sources, that don't have any horse in the race and wrote only what they saw and experienced.

Meanwhile, if the PDF you meant was the appeal of Khojaly survivors, here are three quotes, any of which could be included:

"Seventyeight of the mutilated were minor boys and girls. As a result of this military-political crime, members of six families were murdered to the last man, 25 children lost both parents, and 130 children lost one of them. Fifty-six people were burned with special cruelty, tortured, beheaded, and blinded, ears, noses cut, pregnant women bayoneted."

"For 13 years we, the residents of Khodjaly, living the life of refugees, have appealed to all peaceful peoples and international organizations of the world, with heartache mixed with high hope. We beg you not to remain indifferent and neglect our sufferings and all the tragedy resulting from the Armenian military aggression. We do not believe that such authoritative organizations as the United Nations, the Council of Europe and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, as well as powerful nations, are incapable of bringing Armenia, a State that defies the civilized international community, to justice."

"We, the witnesses of Khodjaly genocide, who miraculously outlived the tragedy, condemning all kinds of genocide and terrorism against humanity, once more appeal with high hope to the United Nations, the Council of Europe, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe and the civilized world community, and call for rendering a legal and political assessment of the Khodjaly genocide." --adil 06:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Why do you insist on trying to include emotional POV in this article? Of all the articles on the NK war, I'd say this is (in the current version), the most neutral. - Francis Tyers · 08:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

New Category

Added Turkophobia category, where this topic also fits in. Atabek 11:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Would it be more accurate to say that this was an act of anti-Azeri sentiment? -- Augustgrahl 13:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it does fall into anti-Azeri category. However, Azeris are Turkic-speakers, and called as Turks by Armenians. Moreover, the main article Anti-Turkism, mentions that the sentiment is directed not only against Anatolian Turks, but also about other Turkic peoples of Azerbaijan, Central Asia, etc. Atabek 18:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Then why not call the category "Anti-Turkism" instead of "Turkophobia"? -- Aivazovsky 00:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I think they mean essentially the same thing. -- Augustgrahl 00:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)