Talk:Khoisan

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I speak under correction, but isn't the Khoi and San the official names while Bushmen and Hottentots are the derogative names?

I have often heard from San (as well as Khoi) people that they feel offended to be called Bushmen or Bushies.

The assertion elsewhere is that "San" is a particularly negative name meaning "outsider" used by the Khoi. See Bushmen for details, pointing at the bottom half of [1] --Henrygb 00:50, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
for special information look a.t.: [2] --80.143.127.143 22:05, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] "Most archaic human group"

This statement can be misleading, as Khoisans have probably evolved roughly as much as other modern humans, and implies than modern humans evolved from Khoisans as opposed to both groups diverging from the same common ancestor. It's more accurate (and doesn't have eugenicist implications) to say that they retained some traits that were lost in other (i.e., non-Khoisan) modern humans. SteveSims 23:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Khoisan Extermination

The Khoisan were treated very poorly not only by the Europeans but also by the warlike Zulus who considered them to be be little more than animals.


"...who considered them to be be little more than animals." - what kind of evidence could possibly support this? If this were the case, surely the Zulu would not have incorporated clicks into their language? When the Zulu became "warlike", didn't they extend military hostility towards various ethnic groups in a uniform manner, not just towards the Khoisan alone? Be very careful of eurocentric textbook bias! Factual information is more worthy of encyclopedic reference than this "...considered them to be little more than animals" useless fluff. Extermination by Commandos

[edit] Adding some new information

I'm adding some new information that I believe to be accurate. If I'm incorrect, please change it in accordance with the facts. I just finished giving a class based on the Lee and DeVore book, as well as the biography of Nissa in her own words by Marjorie Shostak, and have been reading about the people of the Kalahari with great pleasure for a good many years.--Samivel 00:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose merging Bushmen and Khoisan

Oppose merge as Bushmen (San) is not equivalent to, but a subgroup of Khoisan.--Ezeu 14:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Khoisan is a term that includes both the Bushmen (San) and the Khoikhoi (Khoi), hence - Khoi-San. I wouldn't be a good idea to merge. --Khoikhoi 18:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] what exactly does "tribespeople" mean?

"...Both share physical and linguistic characteristics, and it seems clear that the Khoi branched forth from the San by adopting the practice of herding cattle and goats from neighboring Bantu tribespeople..."

I have always wondered... what exactly is a "tribesman"? (an official definition would be nice)

[3] [4] Tribesman - n.
  1. A man who is a member of one's own tribe.
  2. A member of a tribal people.
[5] [6] - pl.n.
  1. The people of one's own tribe.
  2. An aboriginal people living in tribes: "the tribespeople of the Kalahari Desert".
Cheers! —Khoikhoi 17:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)



Thanks...

For consideration:

Tribesman or Person?

[edit] what gene study ?

1) I really think it is someones POV that the physical uniqueness of Khoisan peoples are diminishing because of supposed increase in intermarriage.

2) What gene study says that the Khoisan are "similar" to other indigenous African peoples ? What exactly does "similar" entail since all humans are genetically similar ? I really do think the Khoisan are probably quite genetically different from other Africans, possibly as much as they are from Europeans, Asians or Austro-nesians in some respects. This especially makes sense considering current archaeological analyisis claims that the Bantu peoples only arrived in South Africa 1500-2000 years ago while the Khoisan have been there for 30,000 years or (probably) much more.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.126.241 (talk • contribs) 11 August 2006

Please remove all unsourced claims you find in this article.--Ezeu 23:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Special humans

I haven't read Knight 2003 and probably wouldn't understand it, but I doubt that it supports statements like “Khoisans thus actually represent the most archaic human group” or insinuations of Khoisan people somehow being the world's first human beings, oldest people or some such.

The latter is just plainly absurd – if there was a time when there were only Khoisan and no other human beings had entered the scene yet, then where did all other humans come from? Their ancestors may have been around for a long time, but so have everybody's.

Where did all other humans come from? That is very easy question to answer: one proto-Khoisan long time ago had a genetic mutation and all non-Khoisan people are carrying that mutation. For Y chromosome, the name of that mutation is M168. ( The group of peoples without mutation M168 is a little wider than Khoisan but I have to simplify things to give a simple answer to your question). So what you are calling a plainly absurd is actually well-established scientific fact. I agree that we should be careful assigning to peoples names like 'archaic' but in this case its meaning is extremely well defined. Warbola 14:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

As to the claim that Khoisan “represent the most archaic human group”, wouldn't that mean all Non-Khoisans have evolved into something less archaic after the assumed fork (that is, during a time of few common ancestors) while the Khoisan idly sat on their butts and refused to evolve? I understand that you can look at two groups of people, then compare each group's average body features, and then postulate a set of notable differences that set one group apart from the other, but how can we say one group's feature set is more “archaic” than the other's? How can we know which group's bodies and brains more closely resemble their common ancestor's? Do we even know gene material of people who predated their descendants' forking into Khoisan and non-Khoisan?

While the “oldest humans” insinuation makes Khoisan original/real/better humans over others, the “most archaic” claim links them to an earlier stage of evolution in a way that makes them look like a more primitive life form compared to other modern humans. I don't like either idea. Sorry for the long post, feel free to remove it. 15:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alien perspective?

References to physical appearances of _human beings_ and using these as a basis for differentiating between surrounding ethnic groups is interesting, but seems a little dated - the kind of material one would expect to find in the diary of Vasco Da Gama or Jan Van Riebeck, or the kind of material one would expect to find about animals in a safari game guide booklet. Are we discussing aliens who are incapable of understanding our communications? It seems as though this kind of information is stated as scientific (such as reference to female genitals), and therefore unoffensive, relevant and useful - worthy of encyclopedic reference. "Elongated labia"?? Who decided that they are elongated? I bet if they were asked for their opinion, they would suggest that the ones you are used to seeing are "miniature labia"... Some respectful neutrality when talking about ethnic groups would be more in tune with our times.

A lot of other interesting information, which I am sure would be more worthy of encyclopedic reference exits and should (in my humble opinion) replace the other less humane references. Detailed information on family structures, religious beliefs, rock art and its meaning/importance, environmental harmony, hunting expertise, architecture/dwellings, clothing... contribution to medicine (buchu, hoodia etc), musical instruments, weapons, contemporary lifestyle issues... Where did "IKE E : IXARRA I IKE" come from, why was it chosen, what does it mean and how true are the rumours that it does not mean what it was believed to mean? some such information has been included, but i think this should be the main focus and the other stuff should perhaps even be omitted all together. I wish someone would share knowledge and rescue us from this... The Gods Must Be Crazy ...level of knowledge (pitiful ignorance, really). Comments on "Special humans" and "Tribespeople" echo similar concerns, please can someone display knowledge and update this article so that it teaches its readers something new and fresh? Just a thought (with a flare of irritation, yes i admit... but i did try to control it).

[edit] Unevolved template humans

The sentence

"The distinct characteristics of all human varieties [...] all may have beginnings in the physiology of the Khoisan [citation needed]"

does not deserve to be in a Wikipedia article and should be removed.

I doubt that a citation will ever be provided. This is a view sometimes expressed by people who do not fully understand the implications of mitochondrial DNA studies and incorrectly believe that since they have the longest lineage all other human populations must've evolved from them. As noted above, this then implies that they're Ur-Humans who sat down and stubbornly refused to evolve.

Speculation about (as I once saw on TV) "skin colour that can either become lighter or darker, the high cheek bones like those of Mongolians, the East Asian eyes,..." does not deserve to be in a modern encyclopedia without citation (in context).

Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 12:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Feel free to get rid of it. — mark ✎ 15:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't, as always. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 16:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Format clean up needed

clean up and chapters needed.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The physical appearance section belongs in a Human Zoo, not in an encyclopedia

This material is unworthy of encyclopedic reference:

San woman from Botswana
San woman from Botswana

Physically the Khoisan, with their short frames (149-163 cm/4'9-5'4;), copper brown skin, tightly coiled "peppercorn" hair, high cheekbones, and epicanthic eye folds are quite distinct from the darker-skinned peoples who constitute the majority of Africa's population. They have moderately long legs with long muscle bellies, which is a trait that sharply distinguishes them from surrounding Pygmy and Bantu populations having muscles with short bellies and long tendons (Coon 1965). Two distinguishing features of some Khoisan women are their elongated labia minora and tendency to steatopygia,[7], features which contributed greatly to the European fascination with the so-called Hottentot Venus. However, the physical differences between Khoisan and other peoples may be diminishing due to intermarriage.

[edit] References for the Khoisan being the oldest and original Homo Sapien population

[8]

I will add this in accordingly just not right now.

let me explain how the Khoisan having the oldest lineage means that they are the now living group that is most like the group from which we all decended. You see if no one in the world has a longer bloodline and everyones DNA points to Khoisan being the ancestors of everyone else (kind of like a DNA paternity test can tell who'd the baby daddy but going back hundreds of generations.) then they are the original Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Thier simple huting gathering lifestyle allowed them to survive the Toba catastrophe and live to repopulate the world.

This would not make them better or superior. That thinking is a residue of an old idea that white people were the original people and everyone else devolved from their pure white perfectness (that was the kind of thinking that gave the world "eoanthropus dawsoni" a.k.a. Piltdown man. A hoax fossil that placed the missing link in Engalnd. )--Hfarmer 01:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The article you link says nothing about the Khoisan being "living group that is most like the group from which we all decended." Rather it says they are probably, along with another group, the "oldest branch of modern humans" in the study quoted. These are two radically different things. If this latter point is true, the Khoisan probably contain far more genetic diversity than other humans, which may come from them being most like (in the quantity of their diversity) the group from which they descended, but does not fall out naturally from the conclusion you presented to the lay reader. KP Botany
| Genes Help Identify Oldest Human Population By NICHOLAS WADE Published: January 8, 2002
This is an excerpt with emphasis added by me. Pay close attention to all the words in bold.

This study, by Dr. Douglas Wallace of Emory University, indicated that the most ancient human populations are the Vasikela Kung of the northwestern Kalahari desert in southern Africa and the Biaka pygmies of Central Africa. Most parts of the human genome are shuffled between generations, making it hard to sort out the pattern of inheritance. Two exceptions are the Y chromosome, which descends through the male line, and the DNA of mitochondria, the energy-producing organs of the cell, which are transmitted only through the mother. These two segments of DNA have been inherited unchanged from the ancestral human population, except for occasional rare changes or mutations in the DNA caused by radiation, copying errors or other damage. This makes it possible to draw up a human family tree based on the series of mutations that accumulated over time as people emerged from the ancestral human cradle in Africa and spread out across the globe. Such trees were drawn up by Dr. Wallace and others, based on mitochondrial DNA, and more recently by Dr. Underhill and his colleagues, based on mutations they found in the Y chromosome. The deepest branches in these gene trees -- the ones that join nearest to the point of origin -- presumably represent populations that are closest to the ancestral human population. Dr. Underhill finds that the earliest mutations in his Y chromosome tree are found at high frequency among the Khoisan and also among the Oromo and Amhara peoples of Ethiopia. Many early lineages in the ancestral population are likely to have been lost, however, and it is a matter of chance which survive, Dr. Underhill said. So it is not surprising that the earliest branches on his Y chromosome tree lead to a different set of populations than those in Dr. Wallace's mitochondrial DNA tree. Both trees point to the Khoisan, however, since Kung speakers are members of the Khoisan language family. Archaeologists tracing the ancient distribution of the San people, part of what is now referred to as the Khoisan, believe that in Paleolithic times they occupied the eastern half of Africa from Ethiopia to South Africa. Dr. Underhill said this distribution matched that inferred from his Y chromosome studies. These earliest Y chromosome lineages, he said, are found only in Africa and seem to be associated with these hunter-gatherer-forager lifestyles. He believes the men carrying these lineages began to spread out in Africa from 130,000 to 70,000 years ago, based on the estimated rate at which genetic changes accumulate in the Y chromosome.

That is a reference for the Khoisan being the oldest population. Therefore that detail should stay in the article. The reference should stay in the article. --Hfarmer 13:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)