Talk:Khatyn massacre

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Contents

[edit] Khatyn and Katyn

To Ben-Vevel, the similarity of the names, fairly and logically would be sufficient reason to want to clarify the difference betweent the two events. Hard to understand why this clarification would be a problem to anyone. Before I readd this small but important detail to the Khatyn article, and a similar addition to the Katyn article, I am willing to discuss it further. Perhaps if you can show me where Katyn has been unnecessarily added to other articles of this nature, I would agree with your position, that there has been some kind of over kill on the subject. Dr. Dan 16:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Template:About is the solution for us - it was designed specifically to solve such problems.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear P.Piotrus! The template has already solved a problem of similarity of names of settlements. There is no necessity, to write the paragraph in this small article, why communist propaganda has chosen Khatyn. It as a POW more likely suitable to newspaper... I also have the point of view, why modern Polish propaganda ignores a theme of mass brutal killings of Polish civilians carried by the Ukrainian nationalists in 1942-1943 in Volhynia and Galicia. It has been killed in twenty times more Polish people on Volhynia and in Galicia than in Katyn. In July 1941 in Lvov many remarkable Polish intellectuals have been killed by the Ukrainian batallion Nachtigal (I can inform some names). But this theme is a victim of momentary political interests Ben-Velvel 00:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know there is any modern Polish propaganda - perhaps you should elaborate on that. Therefore I have no idea why this fictional entity would or would not ignore the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia or Massacre of Lwów professors. Besides that, I see no reason why the size of this article should be any reason to delete a sourced paragraph on how Soviet propaganda abused this massacre (there is even an expantion request here, after all).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
These themes (Lvov and Volhynia killings) practically are not discussed in the Polish press. Ben-Velvel 02:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I have asked Ben-Vevel a question here and on our respective talk pages in a civil and a "just wanting to know attitude". Unfortunately, he has not yet responded. So I'll ask him again, and anyone else for that matter, what the objection could possibly be, to not want to distinguish between two similarly named horrible events. Why someone would object to clarifying some confusion between two similarly named events that took place in relatively the same time period, and relatively the same geographical location, is somewhat mystifying. It honestly deserves some introspection, less it be interpreted as some weird agenda, that is deliberately trying to deprive unknowing persons of the truth regarding both events. Dr. Dan 01:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

It is already specified in this article, that Khatyn massacre and Katyn massacre are two different events. You certainly can state proofs, that Khatyn massacre is a dodge of the Soviet propaganda, to hide the truth about Katyn. But please do it in other article. This article is devoted to victims of a genocidal German policy in Belarus and these victims are not dodge of the Soviet propagandaBen-Velvel 02:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Now, it's specified in this article, but not thanks to you. What confused me was your removal of the information that didn't appeal to you without readding anything to clarify the matter. In any case it, seems to be settled fairly now. Dr. Dan 02:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why it should be a problem to mention the name confusion in this article, although it should not be the first thing said about Khatyn. No one is suggesting that Khatyn didn't happen (indeed, as the article states it was one of hundreds of such massacres in Belarus) or that there was any connection or equivalency to Katyn. However, the choice of Khatyn as the memorial site, rather than one of the 600 other massacre sites, some of which were better documented, and the timing (the late 1960s, as Polish exile groups were demanding recognition of Soviet responsibility for Katyn), suggests strongly that obfuscation was the reason.
This may seem less obvious to someone whose native language is Russian, but to the untrained ear in English (and in many, if not most other western European languages), the two names sound very similar or identical. In the event, the Khatyn memorial did indeed confuse a lot of people, of which the links in the article are just a small sampling. Owing to the secretive nature of the Soviet state, we will probably never have direct proof that such a decision was taken, but the fact that this was widely believed to have been the case should be mentioned. ProhibitOnions 20:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
In that case it is a POV, until we see direct evidence that this site was chosen because of the two names sounding so similar. It is nothing but an opinion, an opinion that has to be treated as such. --Kuban Cossack 20:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
No, it's a widespread and well-documented belief. It is therefore notable and should be mentioned. ProhibitOnions 20:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Exactly a belief, and should be treated as such. --Kuban Cossack 20:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Which is how it is treated in the article. However, just because it's a "belief" doesn't mean it isn't probably an accurate assessment of the situation in the absence of an admission from the Politburo. I'm curious, what do you personally think? ProhibitOnions 21:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Any theory shall remain a theory until proven or disproven by solid facts. As we lack the latter... --Kuban Cossack 22:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
That's not how an encyclopedia works; truth is not dependent on the Politburo's press releases. We are reporting the existence of a widespread belief that is entirely cogent to the choice of this site. Even Belarusians I spoke to at Khatyn spoke of the Katyn connection; it's hardly a fringe belief. ProhibitOnions 23:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section clarifing the difference of Katyn and Khatyn because it was out of place. While we certainly need to clarify that they are different events, it should not be done is such an offensive manner. I think that 2,230,000* victims of German genocide deserve more respect than having a paragraph with political accusations against the USSR placed above it. My solidarity is with the person who said "It is already specified in this article, that Khatyn massacre and Katyn massacre are two different events. You certainly can state proofs, that Khatyn massacre is a dodge of the Soviet propaganda, to hide the truth about Katyn. But please do it in other article. This article is devoted to victims of a genocidal German policy in Belarus and these victims are not dodge of the Soviet propaganda". With respect, Ko Soi IX 23:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC) *the actual number of victims of genocide is lower by perhaps 200-300 thousand people, if not more, that were killed in the crossfire.

[edit] Who?

The quoted book says something different than written in the article. Either correct or remove the link. Xx236 14:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The IHR link

After having a look at who writes or wrote there:

http://www.ihr.org/other/authorbios.html

I have decided to delete that link. Not because it claims that the site was chosen for the similarity of the name (only in English) but because it claims that it never happened. Small surprise that guys writing there would do so? User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 17:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Like you, Pan Gerwazy, I don't like these people. Unlike you, I don't act like the Grand Censor, and delete information that doesn't appeal to me. What has made Wikipedia of great interest, to many people, is its diversity of view points and information. Censorship of information is more likely in the main stream encyclopedias. A link to the extreme left or right shouldn't be deleted in a "knee jerk" reaction. It can and should be debated on the talk pages. I also believe that the author of the book on Katyn, Fitzgibbons, is not a kook. So let's not have guilt by association. Am I wrong? Dr. Dan 21:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the information not directly related to the massacre

To Piotrus - it seems this article did not say that the Balts participated in *this* massacre, but rather that they participated in other similar events in Belarus. However, the way the article is currently written is wrong:some of the things does not belong here, a separate article should be written about the German operations in general, and this should be left about this particular massacre. Village burning as a revenge for actions of the Soviet partisans was common not only in Belarus, but in other occupied territories as well, therefore, perhaps it would be the best to add it to the existing Soviet Partisans article? However, the information as it is written now is factually inaccurate (the batallion name numbers are not accurate frommy knowledge of the events (even the number of batallions that participated itself is not clear, as it says 10 but 11 are listed) other inaccuracies also exist, such as downplaying (not mentioning) the actions of Belarusian collaborators who also participated in these events). And, as well, that text is a possible copyright violation, as it is largely copied and pasted from the official website of Khatyn massacre, link to which is given at the bottom (just few words are changed, example: the word "fascist" is changed to "nazi"). Therefore, I am removing that misplaced, inaccurate and possible copyvio section. If I'll find out more about these German operations (revenge for Soviet partisan actions), I might write an separate article about them myself. Kaiser 747 09:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

What is problem? 118th schutzmannschaft batallion (Ukrainian) participated in Khatyn massacre. Baltic schuma-batallions participated in "Winterzauber"-operation in 02-03/1943 in this region. The description of this operation and German occupation in general is a pertinent part of this article because Khatyn is a symbol of a genocide of the slavic population of the East Europe. Your "revenge for Soviet partisan actions" is "1 to 1" Nazi propaganda. Only Nazis considered that it is possible to execute two hundred civilians including women and children for one German soldier. 2 mio Belorussian civilians and 4 mio Russian civilians killed by Nazis is "revenge for Soviet partisan actions"? During these "antipartisan-actions" tens thousands of Jews were massacred also. Kaiser, do not joke these questions... About copyvio. The information on massacres in Belarus and Russia is PD. There is the reference to a source in the article... I have removed from the article the information on execution of Polish. This tragic incident occurred in other settlement and other time, it has no relation to this article. It is not necessary to mention NKVD each time, the huge number of mass killings had taken place in the world without any participation of NKVD. Ben-Velvel 00:24, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, comparing me to a nazi is a great insult to me; I just said that they were *meant to be* by the nazi regime as a revenge for actions of the Soviet partisans - I haven't said anywhere that this revenge was justified. As for copyvio, the policy of Wikipedia is that nothing should be copied and pasted from elsewhere, even with references. And each article should only be about a particular topic. Kaiser 747 09:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for interfering in your and Kaiser's dialogue, but I would just like to note, that I have explained some related things in your talk page rather than here, as it has soemthing to do with general Wikipedia policies rather than particular articles. I hope that will help. As for NKVD by the way, I am not sure if Katyn should or should not be mentioned here (the reason why it could is a similar sounding name which might mislead some users into believing that this is the same event), but, in general, of course, I would like to note that the fact that many massacres were perpetrated not by NKVD does not means that NKVD massacres should not be mentioned at all - Wikipedia is big enough, all the more imprtant events will find their place here. Burann 11:24, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The outcome of the genocide policy was that 2 230 000 people were killed in Belarus within the three years of German occupation. Every fourth Belarusian died during the WWII.

1. It's "Khatyn massacre", not Belarus in the WWII. 2. The number is doubful. What is your non-Soviet source? Xx236 14:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the section as I agree that it is not directly related to the particular subject: we are not going to repeat same stuff on *every* article dealing with nazis in Belarus (articles about massacres in Belarus, ghettoes in Belarus, resistance in Belarus and so on) as this is encyclopedia rather than a book about a particular event. Instead of repeating the same stuff it is always better to link to other article that is specifically made for that stuff. The sentence "Hundreds similar settlements shared the fate of Khatyn in Russia and Belarus during WWII." is enough to signify that this massacre was not the only such event in Belarus during the World War II. Judging from the page history, I believe we are not the only people to share such opinion about too much information and it is a common Wikipedia's practice not to overcrowd article with unnecessary information that is not *directly* related to the article's topic. I as well decommented the part of the commented out section which says that it became the national war memorial of the Byelarussian SSR as this is useful information I think. Burann 21:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

In order for this discussion to be more visible I have moved it here at one place. No one have yet provided any counter-arguements. Kaiser 747 09:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that this para provides a useful background, and the article is short enough not to merit any need for summarization. It may be moved to an article about Nazi attrocities in Belarus or something, but for now it is rather useful. And certainly I don't support Ghirla removal of yet more sourced information.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

At Talk:Lviv User:Irpen has suggested to move this article to Khatyn incident and asked me to propose such a move as a sign of good will. While I'm certainly not sure it's a good idea, I'd like to hear what the others think. //Halibutt 09:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments
Only after Katyn Massacre is moved to Katyn incident. Please leave your double standards aside. --Ghirla -трёп- 09:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Not mine, Ghirla. Not mine. It was Irpen to propose it and ask me to forward his proposal here. I wouldn't support such a move myself. //Halibutt 10:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Per Ghirla, how silly is this? --Kuban Cossack 16:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, as Halibutt notes above, it was Irpen who suggested this move. If he thinks it is a better title, and Halibutt agrees, then perhaps we should consider it seriously.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Here we go again about the usage of strong terms in Wikipedia. Let me explain for a umpteenth time my take on this. First, strong terms in titles should be avoided at all cost. This article's new name should reflect this common sense rule.

Another issue is whether we are allowed to use strong words in Wikipedia or we are not allowed to use them at all, even in the text. Strong words are not only "massacre" (as opposed to incident), but also "liberated" , "occupied", "murdered" as well as nouns, like "Genocide" (as opposed to "numerous deaths"), "uprising" (as opposed to "mutiny"), "revolution" (as opposed to coup d'etat), etc. If all these words are banned, we should only use "killed", "died", "taken", etc. This, however, is not the case. No encyclopedia, book, writer, no matter how NPOV can be required to stick to PC language and no one does that, including the very respectable Britannica and Columbia which also have NPOV policy.

The issue is different. If the majority of scholars see something as NPOV and acceptable usage, we can use this here as well. That the Holocaust was Genocide, that creationism is unscientific (still doesn't make it wrong), October was revolution, Pinochet was coup, Bounty was "mutiny", 1939 was Soviet-German Occupation of Poland, and 1943-45 was liberation of Europe are the terms the scholars agree on to use. I don't object to the usage of the strong words in the article texts, provided that they are backed up by similarly wide usage in the majority of the literature. I will not support the expunging of the word massacre from the article's text. But titles, are the different story. Katyn incident, Battle of the Lower Dnieper (rather than Liberation of Ukraine), Khotin uprising (rather than Khotin Massacre) and its "mirror", so to speak, Fântâna Albă incident rather than Fântâna Albă massacre, etc. --Irpen 17:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This above was written under my false impression that we are talking about Katyn massacre -> Katyn incident move. My typo caused the confusion. I still support ridding "massacre" from all article titles. This one should be just Khatyn (since there is no village, a shorter title is preferred). The other article has to go to Katyn incident. In Katyn as well as in this article we can keep massacre in the text, but rid the titles from such. How about that? --Irpen 18:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that a revision of "Words to avoid" list would be a decent option, I don't think getting rid of POV from the titles would be enough. Besides, if we adopted your view that "well-established means NPOV", then such a solution would be inconsistent. If we consider something as NPOV, then why not use it in the title as well? On the other hand, I doubt such a wholesale approach is possible and I believe we should discuss it on a case by case basis. //Halibutt 19:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, I was going to bed but this one caught my eye. If it looks like a massacre and smells like a massacre, it probably is a massacre. What can any honest person call the murder of these POWS, besides a massacre (or worse)? Some of these officers, were "kids", who did not deserve such deaths (nor did the older ones, either). It's a historical event that makes me sick, whenever I'm reminded of it, and there cannot be any rationale or excuse for it. And after reading about the Khotin massacre, for the first time, it should be so renamed, IMHO. Dr. Dan 04:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC) p.s. Goodnght, and this time I mean it!

If Katyn incident then Auschwitz falanster, Zyklon B inhalations against asthma and Gulag travels for Stakhanovites.

Incident says "An incident is a series of events that involves an attack or series of attacks (compromise and/or breach of security) at one or more sites. Who did attack someone in Katyń? Xx236 13:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Result

I don't see consensus for the move, so page not moved. Eugène van der Pijll 21:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where is the place?

The article doesn't inform, e.g. where is the Khatyn situated. Xx236 13:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It still doesn't. Xx236 08:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I have added some info from pl wiki on location, and note geodata in top right corner.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Khatyn and Katyn

Khatyn has been selected as the symbol from tens or hundreds equal places because of its English name. Such information should be in this article. The best tactics is to accuse others of POV and to promote his own POV.

This article is about Nazi pacifications in Belarus, not only about Khatyn massacre. Some edits or new article are needed.Xx236 08:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I request to stop inserting CIA propaganda into the article. Thanks, Ghirla-трёп- 09:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

And I request limiting of the NKVD/KGB propaganda. Xx236 11:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC) [1] A Thesis Presented to the Department of History Western Illinois University Xx236 11:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't insert anything into this article. Since it's you who promote a fringe theory, it's up to you to provide a reliable source for your insinuations. CIA propaganda is not a reliable or unbiased source, when it concerns the Soviet Union. Neither someone's "feelings" or "suspicions" on the issue are a valid source. --Ghirla-трёп- 12:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
  • CIA propaganda is quoted in thousands of Wikipedia articles, eg. the The World Factbook.
  • A Thesis Presented to the Department of History Western Illinois University [2] Xx236 13:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I understand that a CIA publication might be unacceptable to some, and since there should be no difficulty in finding something better, we might as well do that.
Still, just to satisfy the curiosity of the readers, the article should explain just why Katyn and Khatyn have such similar names, and what is the possible significance of that. Passing over this in silence insults the intelligence of the reader. Balcer 14:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I found the explanation by Benjamin B. Fischer very interesting, and a good addition to the article. I don't understand why this quote (coming from a scholarly publication) is being removed, with the agitprop-sounding dismissive comment "CIA propaganda". I say, let's have the info in the article, and let the reader decide on its validity -- not censor Fischer's work on such dubious grounds. Turgidson 14:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Polish language text: http://tygodnik.onet.pl/1560,1180210,dzial.html

There is also allegedly a capsule in Europe by Davies.Xx236 14:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think Davies ref is enough to show it's not a fringe theory. For the record, I have 404 accessing Fischer's article, but pdf link works - but I think its the entire CSI part of CIA section that just has a short downtime. Anyway, Studies in Intelligence seems relativly reliable, although one should of course keep in mind possible bias originating from CIA pro-American stance. That stance, however, should not be significant when dealing with history of Soviet Union (see also [3], [4] and [5] for blurbs about that journal).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record: we have this page crowded by a group of "truth-seekers" from the Polish noticeboard within several hours after intense and incivil canvassing on that page by Xx236.[6] Once again, I urge the administrators to delete the canvas-board, where they belittle "a small nuumber of Auschwitz prizoners" as compared to the great and overpowering tragedy of Katyn. Until that is done, I won't stoop to continuing the discussion. --Ghirla-трёп- 19:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

For the record: I am not a ""truth-seeker" from the Police noticeboard". Just someone editing at WP, and who doesn't like people being judged by their ethnicity, country or origin, country of residence, or any such criteria, which should not have their place in discussions here at WP, I submit. Turgidson 21:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't care about your self-identification, but you never fail to pop up on any Poland-related discussion to say "yes" to Russia-bashing. That's the only means I have of assessing your persuasions. --Ghirla-трёп- 10:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Writing about Soviet crimes isn't Russia-bashing:

  • Many Russians were buried in Katyn forest.
  • NKVD wasn't a Russian formation, it had two Polish leaders, one or more Caucasian ones, and many Latvian and Caucasian high officers.

Xx236 10:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Auschwitz concentration camp informs:

  • about 7,500 prisoners were liberated by the 322nd Infantry unit of the Red Army on January 27 1945.
    • A reader can decide if 7,500 is many or a small number comparing to millions of Soviet or Nazi German victims.
  • After the war, the camp served through most of 1945 as an NKVD prison

Xx236 06:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of killed in Belorussia

I strongly believe that the number of over 2 milion killed in Belorussia is confusing. First of all it includes Belorussia 1938, annexed territories in Poland within 1945 borders and Bialystok area. It also includes Jews (if we take 10% as avarage Jewish population this will gives us 800 000 people, but there were areas with 15% of Jews and most of small towns were entirely Jewish), all population killed by Soviets(few hundred thousands), conscripted KIA, vllages burnt by partisans. The numbers invented by Soviet propaganda usually were few times enlarged to make more impression (see 4 milion of victims of Auschwitz versus 1.2 milion reality). Can we give it here with question mark rather then reality? Cautious 09:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)