Talk:Key signature

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Archive - discussions about key signatures unrelated to article

[edit] 7+sharps/flats, Modes

The article explains that the seven-sharp and seven-flat key signatures are rare but they have nonetheless been used. Why have they? Also, the article doesn't explain how modes play into the whole thing. I would imagine that F lydian uses the same key signature as C major, right?

--Furrykef 05:16, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

I'll try to explain here: Lets assume that a large scale piece is "in A major". If a section of that piece takes place on the mediant, and is in major, it would "correctly" be notated in C# major, with seven sharps. However, this is fairly rare, and more rare still considering subsidary key areas are often not notated with a change of key signature and that this change could be notated or enharmonically ("incorrectly") as Db major. Hyacinth 20:55, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
There may also be more mundane reasons; the Bach prelude and fugue cited in the article, for example, is notated in C sharp major rather than D flat major because (if I remember rightly) Bach took an old piece he had written in C major and just stuck seven sharps in the key signature to put it in the required key - much easier than re-notating the whole thing in D flat major.
Incidentally (a bit off-topic this), I've been looking at Chopin's mazurkas for fun, and noticed that in Opus 6, No. 2, there is a passage which is notated in G sharp major - eight sharps, that is, seven sharps and then F sharp again making F double sharp. This happens because G sharp major is the dominant parallel major of the piece's home key, C sharp minor. Of course, this isn't expressed in a key signature, but it's sort of interesting anyway, I think. --Camembert

[edit] Proposed outline

  1. Intro: In music and musical notation, a key signature is a series of sharps or flats placed on the musical staff.
  2. Indicates:
    1. A key signature indicates which notes or pitches are to be played one semitone sharp or flat. The "standard" against which notes are raised or lowered are the natural or white keys of the musical keyboard.
    2. Despite being called the "signature" of a "key", or tonic, it does not indicate, by itself, the Key, mode, or scale. However, if one knowns the key or tonic and the key signature then one can deduce the scale or mode.
    3. Accidentals are flat, sharp, or natural signs outside of a key signature. They may appear throughout a score. These override the key signature for the duration of the bar they occur in. Thus a written F, in key signature with F#, will be played F# unless it has an accidental natural sign immediately preceding it and any written Fs in that octave will be played as F#s until the next measure.
    4. During a modulation or change of key, the key may be temporarily different than the one still indicated by the key signature, or the key signature may change also.
  3. History
  4. Purpose: The purpose of key signatures is to avoid having to write sharps and/or flats before every note which would require one. The lines and spaces of the musical staff represent the white keys of a piano. This represents the C major and A minor scales and all modes beginning on the appropriate pitches. However, if one wishes to write in another scale, such as G major, one would need to write a sharp sign before each F that one used. Rather than do this, a key signature consisting of one sharp on the line for F, is added to the beginning of the score. Thus key signatures are a convenience of notation in tonal music, but are less usual and thus less frequently found in atonal music.
  5. Design
    1. Standard:
      1. Key signatures are generally written immediately after the clef at the beginning of a line of musical notation, although they can appear in other parts of a musical score.
      2. They contain only sharps or flats and only in the order of the circle of fifths
    2. Non-standard: Nonstandard key signatures not included in the chart below are sometimes used by composers. One example being the key signature to Frederic Rzewski's song "God to a Hungry Child" (lyrics by Langston Hughes), which features Bb, Eb, and an F# in one key signature but which starts in the key of D with a D major chord.
  6. misc: from F to B, the set of notes used in C Major or A Minor scale.

[edit] list of songs?

Perhaps someone should include in the articles for each key a list of songs or pieces in it? I know some do but it's not ocmprehensive enough.

That's not very logical. Most songs can be arranged in various keys by various arrangers. Look in a few songbooks that you think have at least one song in common. Look up the song in each songbook. Are they in the same key?? If the answer is yes, then try either another song or a third songbook with the same song. Georgia guy 00:50, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Non-diatonic key signatures

Anyone know of a widely used non-diatonic key signature not in the table?? Georgia guy 21:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Key signature with 1 flat in

I am trying to arrange a piece of music using the music software Sibelius, and am having trouble with the key signature. The music shows a key signature with a G flat in. I was wondering if anyone knew the name of this signature so I could enter it in Sibelius? Thanks! Hawk

Well, a key signatre with one flat has to be B. G-flat is the fifth flat in key signature order. Georgia guy 23:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disagree with this sentence

"...if you see a piece with a one-sharp key signature, you cannot be certain it is in G major."

The composition will be in either G major or E minor. Of course it may fleetingly move elsewhere, but if it were not principally in G maj or E min it would have a different key signature.

Relative major / Relative minor, could be better explained on this page.

If the piece is tonal it will will be composed around a tonic note, which is G if major, E if minor or some other note for other mode.

Karl 10 July 08:35 UT

Karl, it seems you have little experience with Baroque music, where the key signature often doesn't match the tonality. Many pieces with two flats are in C minor, with the A-flats added as accidentals throughout. Bach's famous Dorian toccata is in D minor with no key signature (here, too, the B flats are present as accidentals). One can find examples like this as late as Haydn. —Wahoofive (talk) 04:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exotic key signatures

We really should include a section on modes expressed through key signatures (e.g. D flat and A flat = ahavo-rabo mode) and acknowledge that these exist. Amber388 15:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

What is an exotic key signature?? Georgia guy 20:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] "In-between" key signatures

How do you decide the key signature of a piece tuned between e.g. C and C-sharp? (Well, to be pedantic, a piece tuned a quarter-tone over C...) 85.228.206.181 12:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Because key signatures only affect the 12 notes of the scale. You're discussing an issue of tuning, which key signatures have little control over. You could either simply notate in C major and make a note that the instrument should be tuned a quarter tone sharp, or you could make really unnecessary use of the quarter- and smaller-tone notations mentioned in the microtonality article. Amber388 16:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This probably won't answer your question, but the Accidental article has some quarter-tone examples. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Semitones"

The start of the page says that a key signature denotes that each note is played a semitone higher or lower. This is inaccurate, a key signature shows that a note is played one half step higher or lower, not a semitone (quarter step). 72.70.158.183 21:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Dan

I think you're confusing US notation with British: semitone is correct, half-step is American. — Gareth Hughes 21:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, in America, a semitone and a half step are two different things. A semitone is a quarter step, located between two half steps (i.e., the pitch between C and C#). I asked my music theory teacher about this, and she confirmed the difference. 72.95.15.198 20:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)Dan
Not to speak for all Americans, but I've always been under the impression that a semitone and a half-step are the same thing. See any number of American-English dictionaries on the matter for confirmation. I believe you are confusing the word semitone with smaller tonal subdivisions, such as those found in microtonal music. 71.199.186.236 02:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Key signature graphics

Who deleted the key signature graphics? unsigned comment by User:71.174.72.72 —Wahoofive (talk) 03:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

While I don't know what that comment means, I wonder why the article doesn't start with an example of a key signature. Instead, the first graphic is a B major scale. Even in the second graphic, there's really no explanation describing what part of the graphic is the key signature. It would be great to have a key signature example with the key signature in red to emphasize it. —Wahoofive (talk) 03:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] It is well again...

The comment was posted because, for a time, several of the images were missing.

Now they are back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.71.23.54 (talk) 22:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Key signature characteristics of 430Hz tuning?

I am curious about which pitches Christian Schubart actually heard when writing of characteristics for each key signature. Modern musicians hear A to be 440 or higher, but the standard tuning of most keyboard instruments of Schubart's time (1806) was around 430. If so, would these characteristics be best heard when centered around 430, or are the characteristics "transposable"?

I'd say this is in the ear of the listener; various writers throughout history have made associations between various keys and various emotions, and they haven't agreed much. But part of our feelings for various keys stems from associations with music that we've heard in that key. For example, music in D major historically tends to be majestic and triumphant, music in F major tends to be more pastoral (or Christmas carols), etc. These are just historical associations based on the literature and have nothing to do with pitch level, although in some cases the "feel" of a key comes from the fact that string instruments play with more open strings in some keys. This factor would be transposable. —Wahoofive (talk) 23:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "For any number of sharps, take the last sharp and go up one semitone to get the (major) key."

This turned out to be wrong so I changed it to whole tone. It's not helpful when you are trying to learn this stuff and wikipedia tells you things like this :P WikiLlama 15:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Semitone is correct. For example, in the key signature with 3 sharps, the last sharp is G♯, and you go up a semitone from G♯ to A, not a whole tone from G♯ to A♯. Georgia guy 15:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I just realised my mistake, thanks anyway. WikiLlama 15:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I added an example to make it clearer. WikiLlama 15:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)