Talk:Kerry Vincent

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Kerry Vincent has unquestionably altered the history of sugar art and cake decorating. Please READ the article in its entirety. Gracemcmillan (talk) 04:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)Gracemcmillan

You must include verifiable references to prove the subject is indeed notable in order for an article to qualify for inclusion on Wikipedia. Your claims alone are not enough. See WP:References for more information on how to add references. Ejay (talk) 04:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It's also not useful to SAY in the body of the article that the statements can be corroborated by DVDs, or whatever -- you need to provide the references in a verifiable way. Accounting4Taste:talk 06:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed deletion

After a second read of the article, it seems to be nothing more than an unremarkable biography sprinkled with links to external sites for the purpose of promotion. If nothing more has been done to fix this article in the next few days, I will PROD it. Ejay (talk) 05:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I have tried to clean it up somewhat after putting on the speedy deletion notice. However, after noticing that it had been put up twice before for CSD I removed it. Perhaps it is still valid then? Or should it go through AFD?♦Tangerines♦·Talk 05:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

It was I who originally declined the speedy, but I'd have to say that was only because I thought there were some tentative implications of notability. I didn't PROD or AfD it at the time in order to give others the chance to improve it, but it would need an awful lot of work. My only argument against PROD/AfD now would be to avoid discouraging a new editor who seems to want to contribute positively - how rarely are they encountered on new page patrol? Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 07:37, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, after a quick Google search, I couldn't find any good third-party articles on Vincent (except for a heap of books and the sites trying to sell them, and some promos/brief bios by companies who somehow are affiliated with Vincent). If all the web links are removed from the article, it would be totally unreferenced. And besides, almost all the links are promotional/commercial, and they don't really add any further (detailed) information. And yes, I can understand how hard it is to see through a new editor, when they are trying to learn how to do the right thing, but instead continue to put in more garbage that needs fixing. The argument here is, if we allow junk like this to come in unabated, whilst the author can't (or is not willing) to learn the right ways, then we might as well let others do the same. Having said that, I am in favour of putting it up for an AfD discussion. Ejay (talk) 12:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it might be worth for now holding back from putting it up for AfD discussion and see if the creator of the article has any third party sources. As mentioned above, this is a new user who seems unaware of wikipedia guidelines on writing articles. Maybe at least first trying to discuss it with them and then if that is unsuccessful put it forward for AfD?♦Tangerines♦·Talk 17:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Editing the article

Tangerine: I am mortified that I don't seem to understand the system in order to contribute a successful submission. I don't want to do a disservice to Vincent by making more mistakes and adding negative tags to her profile. The information that I have gathered was to try to support the existence of -- say her book -- there are a lot of newspaper articles about her would that work? Can you define third party sources --does that mean names and addresses? I was loathe to do any of that for privacy issues. I had no idea that I made so much extra work for you when I replaced the file -- I apologize. I know this person is worthy I guess I just have to learn how to navigate the site, it isn't easy to understand what makes it tick. Can you help me? Using these keywords, kerry vincent sugar art oklahoma food network, would there be something you could advise would illustrate a good reference?Gracemcmillan (talk) 19:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I have discovered that this submission should be under the subcategory 'wedding cake' perhaps you can tell me how to introduce this -- I don't see to find any buttons on the page.Gracemcmillan (talk) 20:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

No worries there is no rush. Googling the words above I came up with an article on newsok.com the "Oklahoman Direct" website, here - http://newsok.com/article/3203825/?print=1 which might be a good source. From what I can tell of the website it seems to be a decent source. Maybe someone who knows more could say yay or nay. Newspaper articles are a good start yes, especially if you have a link to the article online. And if you have a read of the articles I have linked you to on your talk page, they will explain more about citing sources, but no it doesn't mean names and addresses! Just have a read of the articles I linked for you as that is the best way for you. Please don't worry about the tags, they aren't negative, they are more to alert users that the article needs work doing on it.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 20:24, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Oklahoman is a very creditable respected newspaper that has been around for a long time. I can't believe how inadequate I am regarding navigating this site. I appreciate your thoughtful tone and help -- thank you. I found a couple of other newspaper articles that I added to the references that I think will be right and will visit the talk page. I just saw something called wikirage and Kerry's name tops the billing and I am embarrassed that I have caused this.Many thanks. Gracemcmillan (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Tangerine -- I promise I will not make another change -- I misunderstood what you meant with the references. Believe it or not I posted those correctly at the beginning of all this but had the wrong content. Then the way I understood your message, I thought I was to correct the placing and add them to the bottom in the box. I just hate to cause all this trouble for you. I will leave it alone and try to understand from the texts what I should be doing.I am sorry to drive you crazy with my inept efforts -- truly in my real life I try to be honorable and capable and I am upset with myself that I don't seem to be comprehending this easily.Gracemcmillan (talk) 21:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

No worries, you haven't driven me crazy (honestly!). Wikipedia can seem an unusual place to say the least when you first start trying to edit and I have made many, many mistakes and still do. I have though cleaned up the article now, added sources and tried to "wikify" it as much as possible. I've also removed some of the tags at the top of the article as they no longer apply. If you have any further newspaper articles, let me know and I will have a look for you. I have though had to add the "fact" (citation needed) tag at quite a few places. For some content, the link given did not verify what was being said, so I removed the link, replacing it with the tag and for other content there was simply no source so the tag was added. It would therefore benefit the article greatly if sources can be found in each instance. Have fun and hopefully notability has now been asserted, and the article needs more content adding.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 23:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Tangerine: You are kind. Yes,it is not an easy thing to get around the site -- so many detours. My heart still squeezes when I think of the changes I made without realizing what a disruption I was. Once again thank you so much for what you have done and your patience. I am going to get the 'citation' info that is needed then check with you before ever attempting another post. I wanted this to be a surprise for Kerry but may have to ask her about accessing more information. I have seen a ton of newspaper clippings in her home and can't find them on the internet -- perhaps archives -- many times people have to pay to access those pages and I was trying to avoid that sort of reference. In the interest of honesty, one change you made that will need to be corrected. Lord Wedgwood was an admirer of Kerry's work and they visited from time to time; he wrote the foreword for her book, she did not make a cake for him. Same applies to Christian Lacroix, he wrote to Kerry telling her how much he loved her work after seeing it in magazines in Europe, in one instance she had used one of his stunning gowns as inspiration for a wedding cake design -- just complimentary mail. Kerry still retains the letters on file -- perhaps they could be posted on an internet site. Gracemcmillan (talk) 00:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you have anything to do with this website? www.gracemcmillan.com If so, I can understand where you're coming from. If you are indeed a desktop publisher, using Wikipedia would be a major shift for you, and quite a learning curve too. Ejay (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank Tangerine and Ejay. yes, you are right about the website. Can you please tell me the procedure regarding using reputable magazines and newspapers for citation. Many of the sources are online, but the files are no longer available, so have to provide the information from the individual copy itself. I expect you need, name, month of publication, and page # where the article appears-- anything else. I found the following online that would be a suitable citation, that would be appropriate for either Kerry or the sugar art show.

[1] page 20 [2] page 22

For Food Network, each show lists the judges and or the episode: www.tv.com shows bio info [3] Wedding Cake Surprise [4] Wedding Cake Classic 2005 [5] Designer Wedding Cake Cook-off [6]l National Wedding cake Championship [7] Gracemcmillan (talk) 03:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I will have a look through the links on Sunday if that's ok? And yes it is possible to use sources from articles that aren't online, in the same way that books are used as a source. It would need the newspaper or magazine etc name, article authors name (if appropriate), article title, date of publication (exact date if a newspaper article) or month/issue for a magazine.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 05:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You are funny Tangerine-- of course it is OK to wait till Sunday -- you must have been hunched over the computer for hours fixing up my mess as well as trying to help others. According to Wikirage I have the all-time record for making the most number of mistakes, so it doesn't take much to guess that I am not very computer literate and the symbols/icons, etc., being used don't mean much to me. Like a whole new language. Now I am going to make the least amount of mistakes to try to balance the playing field a bit. I don't know where you are but you are certainly working long and dedicated hours. I had to take some aspirin late yesterday afternoon, can't remember when I took that last, all because I was so determined to try to master the requirements that my neck hurt, read that as throbbed. I have never spent such a sustained period of time in front of a computer. I also noticed that the last post to you had spelling errors, something that I try to avoid, but when tired ...

One thing I found which reminded me as I was present at the event and I think I forgot to put it in; Mayor Kathy Taylor, City of Tulsa proclaimed October 6, 2006 to be Kerry Vincent Day, because of her service to the city and the promotion of the sugar arts. I will call the Mayor's office Monday and ask where to find it on the Internet, or how it should be referenced if it is not on the site. What I have seen online is only 2007 and 2008 records; of course if anyone inquired directly to the mayor's office it would be corroborated, but I will ask them how I should go about handling that. When you check the www.tv.com link remember to scroll right down near the bottom of the page where it shows that Kerry judged a list of challenges, not all are there yet, but this is a casting site so the information comes from Food Network directly to them, it says she 'plays herself.' I am am going to gather the magazine and newspaper information so we can add the citations that are needed. I feel so much better in your hands and the other helpers, believe me, and the page looks wonderful. Now, I know I could never have managed it myself on my own.

Regarding the category issue in which this should be placed.-- when I looked, does this fit people, food and beverage, or the sub-category ceremonial food? Her specialties are master level gumpaste and rolled fondant technique, wedding and celebration cakes -- if you go to [www.oklahomasugarartists.com] and look at the home page -- the gold cake is hers you will see what I mean. I can also provide a picture of her as well as her work for the wiki site, but have no idea how to load or where. I wondered if the icon fourth from last might be image friendly as it sort of looks like it might be something to do with posting a picture -- don't have a panic attack, I am not going to do ANYTHING on this page without checking with you first. Will practice in the sandbox. Gracemcmillan (talk) 14:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Tangerine: found the magazine CAKE DECORATION from United Kingdom that has EXCLUSIVE VINCENT MARQUETRY on the cover. It is the December 1995 issue, Aspen Litharne were the publishers. Jillian Cole Editor, she mentions the Vincent Marquetry technique as "a new and beautiful technique" in a paragraph in her editorial page 4, article page 26 and 27, content called Christmas Casket, text by Jillian Cole. I can scan and send to you if that is possible. Gracemcmillan (talk) 14:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Tangerine: Another citation to reference Vincent's travel and art. Cake Decoration, August issue, 1996, United Kingdom. Cake Decoration Sugar-craft and Baking Show Birmingham, England: By invitation, Kerry Vincent presented the Vincent Marquetry and made personal appearances at the National Exhibition Centre (NEC) October 4, and October 6, 1996 . Reference: Cake Decoration. Aspen Litharne publisher, Pages 40, 42, 46. Also in the same issue Vincent's participation noted on the cover plus pages 52, 53,54 a Marine sugar showpiece by Vincent and the steps on how to create the project. Editor Jillian R. Cole.Gracemcmillan (talk) 15:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The citation needed for the Centennial inclusion of the Oklahoma State Sugar Art Show would be as follows; Tulsa World, November 15, 2007 Oklahoma 100 Centennial Special, featuring the state's best food, restaurants icons and cooks, Editorial contributors, Natalie Mikles and Ashley Parrish; 20 reporters worked on and contributed to this special edition. I can give all names if you would like.Gracemcmillan (talk) 15:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Hall of Fame Citation: International Cake Exploration Societe magazine, October 2004, Volume 26, Issue 1. Page 18. Gracemcmillan (talk) 15:40, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Tangerine:

Can this go?

Kerry is a frequent invited contributor to the Australian publication Modern Wedding Cakes & Chocolates.

Citations/reference:

Modern Wedding Cakes & Chocolates, Wildfire Publishing, Annual, 7th edition, Wildfire Publishing, Australia, editor Gill McCracken, page 133, 137, 139, 140. Modern Wedding Cakes & Chocolates, Wildfire Publishing, Annual, 8th edition, Wildfire Publishing, Australia, editor Gill McCracken, page 154, 155, 159. Modern Wedding Cakes & Chocolates, Wildfire Publishing, Annual, 9th edition, Wildfire Publishing, Australia, editor Gill McCracken, page 144, 145, 147, 151. Modern Wedding Cakes and Chocolates, Wildfire Publishing, Annual, 10th Anniversary collectors’ edition, Wildfire Publishing, Australia, editor Gill McCracken, page 130, 131,140,

-- BTW what is the considered difference/definition between a reference and a citation? Gracemcmillan (talk) 20:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow you have been busy, I will have a look through all the sources. I had noticed in one of the newspaper articles that is stated Kerry Vincent contributed to a number of magazines so that info will be a good addition. There is a lot of content though above to check and add, so it might take some time to all sort out so be patient!♦Tangerines♦·Talk 20:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No impatience here, if you can help me when you can, I am a happy lady. I think I am getting the hang of some of the requirements. I even found my way into the sand box and practiced but am deathly afraid of posting anything like a citation or a reference. Are you American or from overseas? Somehow I am thinking you are from another time zone. I found a few spelling errors that need correction probably happened when the changes were made and I wondered if you would trust me to fix those? I will just keep researching and adding the information, just get to it when you can there is no hurry, I feel we are well on our way. I quite understand that I am not the only person you have to deal with. I must say I am just so glad the peacock is gone from the text, the other tags don't look near as bad -- he was quite a fashion statement! Gracemcmillan (talk) 23:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Tangerine: Italian sources where Vincent's work has been editorialized and published.

Pasticceria Internazionale, Chiriotti publications, Dr. Livia Chiriotti Editor in Chief, issue 184 May (Maggio) 2005, pages 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65 Pasticceria Internazionale, Chiriotti publications, Dr. Livia Chiriotti Editor in Chief, issue 194 August (Agosto) 2006, page 146. Pasticceria Internazionale, Chiriotti publications, Dr. Livia Chiriotti Editor in Chief, issue 202 May 2007(Maggio)pages 109, 110, 112, 114, 115, 116, 117.Gracemcmillan (talk) 18:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)