Talk:Kenshiro Abbe

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Kenshiro Abbe article.
Article policies
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
Good article Kenshiro Abbe was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
October 29, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed

Contents

[edit] Dates

Several changes were made with the most basic reducing the list of dates to something more in line with wiki policy. I'll admit to getting tired and hence a little fast with the deletions but the article should be about Abbe not different organizations or students. Further, the way the article read Abbe's introduction of martial arts to Europe was single handed - not quite true. I tried to introduce a little less POV. There are preferences for articles about the martial arts outlined in Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial Arts and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). Main point here is removing titles. I have one question - what was he chief instructor of with the Kyoto police. I'll modify the sentence in a couple of days if no one chimes in.Peter Rehse 09:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed class for biography and MA as the article has now been extensivly modified... Corky1979 17:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You don't remove - you update. I took a look and feel it still remains in the Start class but is pretty close to BPeter Rehse 10:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I promoted the article to B - as I said it was borderline. The flow still needs a bit more work and more citations would be nice.Peter Rehse 04:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move - Old

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move.--Tbo 157talk 22:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggest we go back to the original article name as this is an English language article and should use the English language version of his name. Comments? Corky1979 21:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

  • I would support getting rid of the macron. Is there really consensus on Abbe? If so, we should use it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - The "official" website uses Kenshiro Abbe, and normal Wikipedia policy is to use the spelling most commonly used in the English-speaking world, even if this differs from the correct romanized version of the Japanese name. DAJF 01:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The guidelines at WP:MOS-JP provide that the Revised Hepburn romanization is to be used for transliterating his name, unless it is widely known (especially published) with a different romanization. A website alone, regardless of how official it is, is probably not enough to establish this. The best measure would be how the name is romanized in publications, especially self publications. Hope that helps resolve the question, Bradford44 02:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I see that Kenshiro Abbe gets 18,600 hits on Google compared to 672 for Kenshiro Abe. DAJF 03:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC).

Oppose- The kanji characters spelt out in Roman letters are A-be (not Abbe). Mijalo 15:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose – Abbe is in no way correct, but it is the most widely used version. I say keep the current version. —Leo Laursen ( T | C ) 07:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose Having a macron in the name doesn't mean that it's not written in the English language.--Húsönd 15:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Not necessarily; but in this case it appears to mean that the name is not spelled as the English spell it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: I have found this letter online that is from Kenshiro Abbe (it's not relevant to the article), but he does seem to sign his name "K Abbe". It is also worth noting that in all of the references used to construct the article he is referred to as "Kenshiro Abbe". Corky1979 20:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: My feeling is that Kenshiro Abbe is probably the most appropriate as per comments of DAJF. I realize that Kenshiro Abbe would still work in a search so I can't get too worked up about the issue but I do have to point out the huge amount of work if we start inserting macrons into existant titles. In this article you would have to go through and make sure you are internally consistent. I think it was enough to have the correct form in brackets beside the name at the top of the article.Peter Rehse 01:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The work on macronning Japan-related articles has been going on for at least a year now; I'm not a big advocate of the process, but a lot of the people who add the macrons to titles are very committed to doing so, and I don't think the work involved is something we need to consider here. Dekimasuよ! 07:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I second that. --Hirohisat Talk 04:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Postscript on requested move -- Old

I was surprised to see the that outcome of this discussion was not to rename or move this page, especially as even one of the two editors opposing the proposal (unwittingly?) used an argument in favour of renaming, namely: Abbe is [ ... ] the most widely used version. I'm sure the renaming debate will reappear in the future, so for future reference, editors might like to consider the following pages for Japanese celebrities, for which the commonly-used spellings of their names have been chosen in preference to the "correct" Romanized Japanese.

Hopefully it will become apparent that Kenshirō Abe is not the most appropriate title for this article. DAJF 02:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move. Well, Bradford44 argument nailed it. Duja► 14:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Further to my request to move the article above I thought it was worth reopening the request based on this letter that I found very late on in the last discussion. The letter is signed "K Abbe", which seems to acknowledge that he himself spelt his name with two "b"'s. If you look at the image in the article, there is a poster on the wall over his left shoulder that also spells his name "Kenshiro Abbe". I have also looked at other sources on the Internet. The Aikido Development Society website references "Kenshiro Abbe" as the person who introduced British Aikido. The Kyushindo Martial Arts Association, MayoShinDo and Zen Judo also all acknowledge "Kenshiro Abbe" as the person who brought their styles to the UK. With all of this, it makes sense for the spelling of the article to follow the most widely used way, which is "Kenshiro Abbe" (without the macron and with two "b"'s for Abbe. Corky1979 16:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose: Taken apart, both Kenshirō (謙四郎?) and Abe (阿部?) are fairly common names, and everywhere transliterated as here. The only valid argument for the move is that the form Kenshiro Abbe has been used consistently for more than fifty years in the UK for this man. I believe it is more or less a coincidence – Kenshiro because ō or ô was unusual and difficult to type, and Abbe because it was more likely to be pronounced somewhat like his Japanese name than Abe.
    It seems that the move is already requested, so I added a template at the top, and changed the header. —Leo Laursen ( T | C ) 18:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - As was the case with editors opposing the move in the previous survey, your argument opposing the move is actually in support of the move. You wrote: The only valid argument for the move is that the form Kenshiro Abbe has been used consistently for more than fifty years in the UK for this man. That is precisely what this discussion is about: how the name for this particular person should be written - not how the Japanese name 阿部謙四郎 should be correctly romanized. --DAJF 02:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
      • No, I'm saying that I oppose. And I'm saying that in case of consensus for the move, it should be based on these facts. You actually seem to agree with the last part, so why not just voice Your support. —Leo Laursen ( T | C ) 10:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Very strong support; we should spell names as English does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - I'm sorry Leolaursen, but I disagree with you. --Тhε Rαnδom Eδιτor 23:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Support the rule at WP:MOS-JP#Names of modern figures should be followed. I will repeat the relevant portion here:
“ Spelling, including macron usage, of the name of a modern figure should adhere to the following, in order of preference:
  1. Use the official trade name if available in English/Latin alphabet;
  2. Use the form found in a dictionary entry from a generally-accepted English dictionary;
  3. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in the English-speaking world;
  4. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in any other popular Latin-alphabet-using language (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, German, and Dutch, or variations); or
  5. If none of the above is available, use the macronned form.
 ”
Since his name is essentially never romanized as Kenshirō Abe, and more importantly has no history of being published as Abe, the rule dictates it be Kenshiro Abbe. Note also that the only "dictionary" I'm aware of his name appearing in is the Encyclopedia of Aikido, which also writes it as Kenshiro Abbe. Applying the rule to these facts is fairly conclusive for "Kenshiro Abbe" unless someone can produce an equal or greater volume of examples of the macronned and single 'b' form. Bradford44 23:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Forgot to vote provide an opinion above and am surprised there was no consensus considering the ample evidence. — AjaxSmack 07:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Failed GA

I have failed this article because

  • It severely lacks references
  • The references that are presented fail WP:RS. Some are hosted on geocitites or the recreational website of a university member
  • Teh picture needs a more thourough Fair Use rationale
  • Lead is used inappropriately. The birth details should not be in the lead. The lead is supposed to summarise the core features of the article.
  • The anecdotal section at the bottom needs to be incorporated into the article better. IF it is an example which shows his style or character, then perhaps a style section should be made. An anecdote section separately is unencyclopedic. Some of the anecdotes are especially POV
  • One line sentences need to be integrated into paragraphs to express a key idea.

Best regards. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)