Talk:Kenny Dalglish

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Needs more details on Liverpool playing career.

Dalglish made his name as an all-rounder forward under Jock Stein's Glasgow Celtic. Seeking new challenges, he joined Liverpool in 1977 when the club was looking to replace Kevin Keegan who joined Hamburg after Liverpool's maiden European Cup triumph in 1977. Dalglish didn't just manage to replace the seemingly irreplaceable Keegan but surpassed him in excellence. His two fellow-Scots, Alan Hansen and Graeme Souness, also joined Liverpool that year. The trio won 3 European Cups, in 1978, 1981 and 1984. Liverpool recorded one of the greatest seasons ever in the English League in 1978-79, capped a hat-trick of League titles in 1982-83-84 and won the League Cup 4 straight times from 1981 to 1984. Joe Fagan resigned as Liverpool manager after the Heysel tragedy and Liverppol's defeat in 1985 European Cup final. Dalglish was appointed player-manager and won the Cup and League Double in May 1986 in his very first season. In 1987, Liverpool signed Barnes, Beardsley and Aldridge. Hereafter, Dalglish's playing career was effectively over. He resigned from the club's managership in February 1991, citing stress as the reason. This started a trend of Dalglish ending his managerial appointments with the club in worse shape than at the time of his appointment. He later managed Blackburn Rovers, Newcastle United, was forever linked with Celtic. He liked to spend lavishly on starts past their prime. His fans remember him chiefly for his brilliance during his playing days with Liverpool. He is arguably the greatest player in the club's history.

Contents

[edit] Freedom of the City of Glasgow

Does he really have this? I can't find any reference to it anywhere and wondered whether it was a subtle vandalism of the page. That said, he certainly deserves to have the award. Mkns 19:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

By the same token, does he have the freedom of Liverpool?? Or do you have to have come from a city to be bestowed with such an honour? Again, he would be most worthy. Dalglynch-72 04:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic team Celtic ?

I'm not too sure about this part. I'd prefer if "He wanted to join his idols at Rangers, but the call never came. He had trials at Liverpool and West Ham, but they came to nothing. And so it was that Dalglish, the Protestant son of an engineer, found himself playing for the Catholic team Celtic, age-old fierce Old Firm rivals of Rangers." was changed to "He wanted to join his idols at Rangers, but the call never came. He had trials at Liverpool and West Ham, but they came to nothing. And so it was that Dalglish, the Protestant son of an engineer, found himself playing for Celtic, age-old fierce Old Firm rivals of Rangers."

What is a 'Catholic' team?

Is your argument that neither Celtic nor Rangers are officially affiliated to either the Catholic or Protestant faith? Mkns 20:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Glasgow Scotland

When giving the place of birth, is it really necessary to give it a Glasgow, Scotland. It seems quite superfluous. After all, he is credited as being a Scottish footballer (therefore from Scotland) and Glasgow is Scotland's biggest city and well known enough internationally. Alex Ferguson's article reads as just Glasgow and Bob Paisley's is Hetton-le-Hole Co. Durham (with no England). hedpeguyuk 09:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

A reasonable argument to a point; however, the same argument occurs all over Wikipedia and, unless there is a specific rule laid down somewhere, this kind of edit (adding or removing Scotland) could just go back and forth forever. I'd suggest not worrying about it, it's really not that important. At least they got the country right ;) Mkns 20:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1986 World Cup

This article says Dalglish missed the tournament through injury, but the Alan Hansen page says he withdrew from the squad in protest at Ferguson not calling Hansen up. Which is correct? Angmering 22:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a matter of some debate. Dalglish had played a major part in the later stages of Liverpool's season, without any mention of an underlying injury. He had played a big part in Scotland's qualifying campaign for the 1986 World Cup, under the then manager Jock Stein. When Stein died, Ferguson was installed as caretaker manager.

Dalglish was indeed originally selected for the squad and Hansen was not. It should be noted that although Hansen had a long and illustratious club career, he had wone relatively few caps for Scotland. The belief was that, as Liverpool manager at the time, Dalglish was angry at Hansen's absence from the squad and pulled out as a consequence.

I don't know if we will ever get the real truth on this, Dalglish himself never made a comment as far as I know, but things that should be noted are a) Dalglish gave up the chance of playing in his 4th World Cup, he would have been one of a very few British players ever to have achieved that. b) Hansen was club captain at Liverpool and Dalglish always supported his players to the hilt. c) Dalglish and Hansen were, and still are, close freinds. Hansen may have been one of the very few players he would have done this for. d) Despite public appearances, Dalglish and Ferguson have always been close freinds, both before and after this incident. --194.125.111.194 15:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

In his autobiography it states that he missed the 86 world cup through injury.

[edit] Dubious Information

Caps and goal figures in the article likely contain European cup/Domestic cup data in addition to Domestic League data (this is very certain based on this user's previous edits containing similar information [1]. Please correct this issue and leave a note here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alfmaster#Footballers.27_European_goals, to warn this person about putting improper information on Wikipedia. --Palffy 21:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Fixed now. --Palffy 17:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah, yes, I probably should have dropped a note here when I made the change. Apologies. --Daduzi talk 18:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2004 Rooney Court Case

I have found myself locked in an edit war with User:82.156.33.151. Basically they think that reference to this court case should be in the lead section. I would argue that it shouldn't. I personally hadn't heard about it until this user started writing about it on this article, so I can't see that it's *that* big of a story to be on a par with his footballing career.

I have researched the story and written a section about it, hoping to negate the edit war, but no, every day it gets reverted. As far as I can tell the case didn't involve Dalglish. He wasn't called as a witness. There is no actual proof in the allegations. It is merely allegations, which admittedly look bad. Anyway, I believe that this infomation definitely doesn't deserve to be in the lead section.

what say ye? aLii 23:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, Ali. It is notable enough to require being in the article, but not so important to demand being in the lead section. I had also never heard about it before I read this article. Jim (Talk) 11:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC) (PS, I'm not cyberstalking you; I had your talk page on my watchlist because of a comment I'd put on their a while back, and saw the comment [] had left. :-) )
  • That is absurd logic just because you haven't heard about it then it is not important. You have researched and written an inaccurate version of the trial. The prosecution decided not to rely on Stretford's evidence becuase he lied about when he poached Wayne Rooney. This point has no baring on the fact that it was accepted by the prosecution and defence lawyers that Dalglish brought a leading London gangland figure to a 2002 meeting. Kenny Dalglish has to be described in the totality and if he decides to associate with convicted drug dealers that should be included.
No, it's perfectly reasonable logic. Also reading the source you just added I see further evidence of this being a whole load of nothing: "On one occasion, notorious London gangland figure – Tommy Adams – accompanied former superstar Kenny Dalglish to a meeting. Dalglish had a stake in Stretford’s agency, but Adams’ role, other than his intimidatory presence, went unexplained." Is that it? It isn't a crime to be in the same room as a "notorious gangland figure". Is it notable? Perhaps. Is it notable compared to Dalglish's football career? No. I'm going to revert you again. aLii 13:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The suggestion that it is perfectly reasonable logic is facile nonesense and deserves no further comment. Amongst all your bluster you now accept that the meeting did happen and Dalglish did bring Adams. Nonetheless your bias knows no limits and you go on to attempt to change the goalposts and say in effect "oh well, so what". Dalglish has to be described in the round. If you are a prominent sportman, albeit in this case retired, you are generally taken to be a role model for society. Associating with Adams' is reprehensible. Dalglish wasn't just grabbed at a stadium or some other public venue and shoved into a photograph with someone he didn't really know. He brought this man with him to a business meeting. By going down this path Dalglish has put his personal off pitch reputation at issue. Skilled as he was, his skill does not somehow allow fanatical Liverpool fans like yourself to attempt to sketch a portrait of him that doesn't fit with reality. When Peter Shilton passes away his gambling will be mentioned when his life is summed up. At the time that Paul Gascoigne dies, inter alia, his drink problem will feature in the press. Part of Dalglish's life is that he has associated with noted criminals.
I accept that the meeting probably happened, but so what? It doesn't make your writing of this to be one of the defining moments of a glittering career to be any more acceptable. Your mentioning of "when Peter Shilton passes away his gambling will be mentioned when his life is summed up" backs up my point perfectly infact, because this will not be mentioned in Dalglish's career. The fact is that it is a footnote, if anything, to the career of Kenny Dalglish, and should be treated as such.
    • More non-sequitur's and nonesense.
You should see Non sequitur (logic). Read it understand it, and learn to spell it. Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. aLii 22:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Grow up. Not going to repeat the same points again and again. It happened. It was accepted by the lawyers. 82.156.33.151
They were not Dalglish's lawyers and Dalglish was not present in court. The case was thrown out because of unreliable witness. The media report Dalglish's involvement as "alleged". How much more evidence do we need to see that there was no conrete evidence offered? This article should reflect the press reports, not your personal bias. aLii 23:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
You even say that as role model he shouldn't be seen to be associating with criminals, however you fail to note that he hasn't actually been seen by any of us to be doing that. There are no photographs. There is merely the say so of a dodgy football agent, and Dalglish's refusal to talk to the police. I admit that it looks bad, and as such I've written into the article what we know about the case from the press reports. Your distaste for Dalglish is noted, but it shouldn't be allowed to colour this article. Again I refer you to WP:NPOV. aLii 19:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Planet Ali: what Ali thinks is important is important. If Ali hasn't seen it- it didn't happen. Grow up. Your hero worship of Dalglish is noted. There are only so many ways of saying it was accepted in court that Dalglish brought the drug dealer and gangland figure Tommy Adams to a business meeting. The veracity of Stretford's evidence on another unrelated issue is irrelvant to this point. Go and read the court reports again.82.156.33.151
Hey, at least I have the balls to sign my posts with my name, so that my views can be challenged. At the moment it's 2 to 1 on this argument, so I'll consider myself in the majority. aLii 22:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Great good for you. Nothing like sophisticated debate.82.156.33.151


Bootroom 101: Kenny Dalglish Sunday Herald, The, Oct 10, 2004 In an attempt to persuade Wayne Rooney's then agent to take a hike, Kenny Dalglish turned up at a meeting with one of the notorious Adams family (it wasn't Morticia), an English Crown Court heard last week.

The Adams in question was a London villain. Dalglish clearly models himself on a character from the fictional Addams family, Thing, the grabbing hand which pops out of the box, palm open. The rapacious failed manager loves money more than his own legend, which he has long since discredited. Remember those cringe-making BT ads? The dalliance with Rangers? Trying to grab his former Celtic employers by the throat until their financial pips squeaked? And who can forget, in his dog days at Parkhead, the procession of press conferences through the festering fleapits and fleshpots of Glasgow's East End? Thing, get thee gone.

Sorry I don't see the point of the above quote and attempt at humour. It just paints yourself in a worse light. Please sign your future posts. At the end of your comments, simply type four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. Also please do not remove the above "unsigned" notes. aLii 19:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
    • You don't see the point of a lot of things. It is just an article from a Scottish newspaper in late 2004 that speaks for itself.82.156.33.151
I have a challenge for you:
  1. Google "Kenny Dalglish", infact here's the link to that search
  2. Each page of results holds 10 results. Find which page gives the first mention of this court case, neglecting Wikipedia and pages that take their information directly from Wikipedia (e.g. answers.com).
  3. Admit that this is not a major factor in the life of Kenny Dalglish.
aLii 22:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
      • That is just silly and such an exercise has no probative value. Again not going to repeat previous comments his life has to be described in the round.82.156.33.151
It has plenty of value. It shows that this case isn't important within the scope of this article. You only refuse my challenge because you know that you'll immediately lose the argument. aLii 23:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I tend to side with Ali on this one. Several people are described as "known gangland characters," without specific sources for such knowledge ever given out. In effect, it is almost an attempt at establishing guilt by association. If they were substantial evidence that his contact with this person resulted in some sort of specific action which might not otherwise have happened, and there was good evidence that this association might have been the cause of that action, I would think differently. But accusation and allegation, particularly for a living person, might constitute libel and on that basis the section should be, at best, not the lead. I also think putting it in the lead is inherently perjorative. We don't mention Sally Hemmings in the lead to Thomas Jefferson, or any other similar alleged misconduct by prominent people, and we shouldn't here. And while it may be true that something will come out after his death, that's fine. He can't sue then. While he's still alive is an entirely different matter. Badbilltucker 20:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biographies of living persons

I placed the templates relating to biographies of living persons onto this talk page yesterday hoping that it would bring some order to the problems being experienced by this article recently. Unlike many things at Wikipedia, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons is a policy rather than a guideline or an essay. It makes it quite clear that biographies of living persons, which require a degree of sensitivity, must adhere strictly to our content policies:

The burden of proof for any claim rests with the editor making that claim. In this case, it would appear that one newspaper has intimated something which most (all?) other newspapers have decided not to be reportable. The fact that one newspaper has made this intimation should not be overlooked but its bearing on the article, and its isolation in the world of media, should also be made clear to provide the right balance and, hence, abide by Wikipedia's formal policy. It is clear, therefore, that these details have no place in the article's leading paragraphs which should concern themselves with the main reasons for this person's primary notability. As for the rest of the article, the burden of satisfying the three key policies bulleted above rests with the editor making these claims. -- Alias Flood 23:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bit of a cleanup

I just gave this quite a major trim in line with our policies on WP:NPOV and WP:V. There are still far too many unsourced assertions, so I suggest getting references if we can. --Guinnog 01:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legend

The number 1 Liverpool Legend, end of.

[edit] Goals

Should the total goals for Celtic not read 112 considering that only league goals are considered in the final tally?? 194.81.124.196 09:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Correct me if i'm wrong but the photograph in this article is of Phil Neal, not Kenny Dalglish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.182.60 (talk) 00:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)