Talk:Kenneth MacAlpin

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not to move.

Comment I am closing this discussion since no consensus will be reached on this plethora of moves, nor will further discussion here gain consensus. I would echo suggestions made by Andrewa and others that a proponent may wish to relist an individual move, which may allow for discussion to set precident for others or in the very least, maintain a neater discussion --Lox (t,c) 10:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Except Kenneth MacAlpin and Macbeth, none of these kings can be said to be well-known at all in the English-speaking world. Infinite replication of king lists and regurgitation of popular tertiary works on the internet does not count as being "well known", but rather "well replicated" or "well reproduced". Current titles may offer a comforting standard, but are misrepresentative of the facts and behind even much modern tertiary writing.

These moves offer the only accurate titles possible, and should be accepted. Rejecting this in favour of the misapplied Use English, which here seems to mean anglicize at the expense of facts, will damage wikipedia and set it's ambition far lower than the standard actually already reached in most of those articles. Anglicization is not the central problem though. It is numbering these guys inaccurately and treating them like renaissance monarchs when they're not. Scottish kings titles are currently the puss-filled carbuncle on wikipedia's representation of dark age insular history.

The current names are embarrasing and make users experienced in the modern historiography cringe. It is not pedantry to follow the standards of scholarship. Even encarta has abandoned them (though not in titles). Upward conformity is standard in scientific and techinical articles, but seems to be flimsically rejected in favour of inaccurate populism for history and monarch articles. There is no good reason for this. Kenneth I of Scotland was not called Kenneth, not the first ruler of the kingdom with that name, and did not rule a kingdom called Scotland. Likewise for Constantine I of Scotland, and others. You might as well tell the readers they lived on Mars.

Many of the arguments have already been put recently at Talk:Constantine II of Scotland and Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(use_English)#British_and_Irish_medieval_names; there are related discussions at Template talk:Scottish Monarchs and Talk:Kenneth I of Scotland.

Please do not reject this on the basis that "most readers" would not be able to find these articles. This is nonsense, as all monarchs will still be linked to list pages and one can make and keep as many redirects as one likes. If most readers think Kenneth MacAlpin ruled Mars, we can have Kenneth, King of Mars as a redirect without actually implying he did rule Mars on the actual page.

Article titles do not have to affect what forms (i.e. Malcolm versus Mael Coluim) are used in the body of the text. The primary aim of this proposal is to solve the title problem. Use of native/scholarly forms happens to be necessary, but is of itself incidental.

The following monarchs are the monarchs concerned. The names of later and omitted Scottish monarchs do not cause the problems currently entailed. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Caustantín of the Picts → Caustantín mac Fergusa
  • Kenneth I of Scotland → Kenneth MacAlpin
  • Donald I of Scotland → Domnall mac Ailpín
  • Constantine I of Scotland → Causantín mac Cináeda
  • Áed of Scotland → Áed mac Cináeda
  • Giric of Scotland → Giric
  • Eochaid of Scotland → Eochaid, son of Run
  • Donald II of Scotland → Domnall mac Causantín
  • Constantine II of Scotland → Constantín mac Áeda
  • Malcolm I of Scotland → Máel Coluim mac Domnaill
  • Indulf of Scotland → Ildulb
  • Dub of Scotland → Dub mac Maíl Coluim
  • Cuilén of Scotland → Cuilén
  • Amlaíb of Scotland → Amlaíb mac Ilduilb
  • Kenneth II of Scotland → Cináed mac Maíl Coluim
  • Constantine III of Scotland → Causantín mac Cuiléin
  • Kenneth III of Scotland → Cináed mac Duib
  • Malcolm II of Scotland → Máel Coluim mac Cináeda
  • Duncan I of Scotland → Donnchad mac Crínáin
  • Lulach of Scotland → Lulach
  • Malcolm III of Scotland → Máel Coluim mac Donnchada
  • Donald III of Scotland → Domnall mac Donnchada
  • Duncan II of Scotland → Donnchad mac Maíl Coluim

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Oppose absolutely: It is a blatant falsehood to claim that men such as Duncan I, Malcolm III and Kenneth MacAlpin are better known by their Gaelic name forms. And whilst I will not speak for Constantine of the Picts, the others are far more commonly known by their English regnal titles than by their Gaelic patronymics. Michael Sanders 17:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support, 'of Scotland' is anachronistic. Haukur (talk) 17:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - but accepted. We are not here to rewrite history or historiography (furthermore, there are plenty of other cases of anachronistic usages which are accepted. "Holy Roman Emperor" as a title didn't exist until the 12th century, and I don't know when "King of France" - as opposed to "King of the Franks" - came into use, but it was certainly quite late. Michael Sanders 17:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose: This is getting out of hand folks. This is the English Wikipedia, and those English names are the more commonly used. What's next? change the entire article content to Gaelic? GoodDay (talk) 17:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Comment Hardly. Could you at least read the proposal. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Comment Read it, but disagree with it. The articles are fine as they are (even with the predominant Gaelic in it). GoodDay (talk) 17:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Comment Well, this is a discussion, not a vote; so it'd be good is you gave reasons. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Comment I'm a layman; these Gaelic changes are over my head. I can't read Gaelic or pronounce it; are we gonna start changing early Pope articles to Latin, next? GoodDay (talk) 18:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support (strongly) as nominator, per above. I'll add that I can't see any way of using convincing Anglicized names in the title, dabbing and being accurate at the same time. I know hostility to the native/scholarly forms through partially misguided loyalty to WP:UE is likely to cause the proposal to fail, which I think is a crying shame; just means this issue will remain. It hurts that one has to accept the realities of the way wiki works even when it's so clearly wrong. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. We can discuss "of Scotland" (although it is clearly appropriate as modern usage for, say, Duncan II), but the idea that the Gaelic names are what most English speakers generally call these kings; we are, for the hundredth time, optimized for general readers, not for the handful of specialists in this area. They have, and should thank heaven for, more reliable sources than Wikipedia is or is likely to become. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's simply incorrect to say that only Kenneth McAlpin and Macbeth are well known in English. At the very least, Duncan I and Malcolm III are well known from Shakespeare's play. Probably as many people have heard of them as of Kenneth. Going further, by analogy, if we are going to have Kenneth I and Malcolm III and Duncan I, it makes sense to use anglicized forms for the other kings with the same name - Kenneth II and III, Duncan II, Malcolm I, II, and IV. At that point, using the (relatively) familiar anglicizations more or less throughout (for obvious exceptions like Aed, whose name is never anglicized) seems like the way to go. I don't particularly care about "of Scotland" - I've never liked the way we disambiguate monarch articles, and if we could agree on a better way, I'm fine with that. Obviously, though, some disambiguation is needed, at least for the Constantines. john k (talk) 17:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Comment Being in Shakespeare's play doesn't mean being well known. When I was younger I acted in Romeo and Juliet and I still don't remember any of the obscure characters. Anyways, it'd prolly help if as many people as possible give some thought to how Constantine I of Scotland can ever be accurately and disambiguously renamed without using a native/ academic form.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  At the risk of turning this into a discussion of English literature, I think Duncan is fairly memorable in the Scottish play (his silver skin laced with his golden blood...). Michael Sanders 18:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  • And taking this objection literally, Deacon is claiming that MacBeth himself is an obcscure character in the Scottish play.... Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

    Hardly. And since you didn't notice, I'll point out to you that Macbeth is indeed absent from this proposal. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

  As Michael says, Duncan, at least, is pretty memorable. Perhaps Malcolm is less so, but he's still a fairly major character. Ross and Lennox are obscure characters. Both Duncan and Malcolm are integral parts of the plot mechanics. They are almost certainly better known to more people than any other king of Scotland besides Macbeth himself, Robert the Bruce, and James VI. As to Constantine I, I don't see what the issue is - don't we have the same issue with Edward I of England? Certainly the "anglicization" isn't a problem, as in that case the name isn't even a Gaelic one. john k (talk) 18:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  • And we must disambiguate him from the Emperor of the same number somehow. "(Scotland)" or "(Scots)" seems less helpful than the present title, which can at least be used in running text. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Well, English kings were dated from the conquest. That is contemporary and accurate, and a strong centralized state like England is not comparable to the Kingdom of Alba; in fact, these titles promote such a bad comparison, and are probably the reason so many think it apt. Scottish kings didn't know who their predecessors were, and if they numbered at all (which they didn't at least until Alexander II), they would have done it agnatically not through office holding. Those English kings had a system ... let's not try and pretend the Albanic kings did just because we want convenient comparisons. As for Duncan ... how about Lady Macbeth? You won't convince me for a second that of the 1-2% of people in the English-speaking world who remember a character called Duncan in that play, more than 10% of those know he was Duncan I/Donnchad mac Crinain. Best regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  And Scottish Kings were dated from the ascension of Kenneth MacAlpin. Both cases are good comparisons - both examples of later nationalists justifying the rule of their monarchs by dating it from a specific supposed watershed moment which had less to do with historical reality and more to do with propaganda. The only difference is that the Scots initially claimed that Pictish kings before MacAlpin were Scottish monarchs, a claim which has now been dropped in the mainstream. Otherwise, both cases are inaccurate usage which nonetheless is so well recognised that it would be damaging and arrogant to alter it. Michael Sanders 18:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  But they weren't ... that's the very point! Scottish kings didn't know who their predecessors were! Kenneth I of Scotland is a modern fantasy based on a now rejected Anglo-Norman myth. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Wait...Kenneth MacAlpin is fictional? I've never heard that. Michael Sanders 18:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Yeah, I think you missed the point there. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  That's not what the article says; it says his conquest of Pictland was a myth, which is quite different. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  What did you think I was talking about? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

  That the numbers were made up later is completely irrelevant. Not a single ancient monarch used ordinals. They are convenient ways to refer to people, no more. Bringing in Lady Macbeth again. Lady Macbeth is not a name, it is a title, among other things. As to the extent of familiarity with Duncan - I think that most people, on looking at a list and seeing that there was a historical King Macbeth, would expect that his predecessor would be Duncan and his successor Malcolm (Lulach having been ignored by Shakespeare). That most people are unfamiliar with almost all history seems irrelevant here. Many more people are familiar with the notion that there was a Scottish king named Duncan who preceded with Macbeth than with, say, anything having to do with Alexander II. Obviously, there's many people who are familiar with neither, but what does that matter. The basic point is that the vast majority of people who have heard of Donnchad mac Crinain know him as "Duncan". And that that number is not derisory. Macbeth is one of the best known plays in the English language. Along with Braveheart, it is about all that most non Scottish people know about medieval Scottish history, even if they aren't fully aware that it's about real historical figures. "Lady Macbeth" would be a ridiculous name to use, in that it's not a name. Traditional anglicizations of the Gaelic names "Donnchad" and "Mael Coluim" don't fall into the same category at all. Additionally, no historian would ever call Gruoch "Lady Macbeth" - lady Macbeth is a literary character. Plenty of historians call and have called Donnchad mac Crinain and Mael Coluim mac Donnchad "Duncan I" and "Malcolm III" respectively. john k (talk) 19:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Please, don't bring Braveheart into this; that movie is full of inaccuracies. GoodDay (talk) 19:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  As is Macbeth. And Ivanhoe, and pretty much every other work of historical fiction ever written. Garbled as such things may be, people still learn about real historical figures and events through such works. john k (talk) 19:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - We've had this vote before - not that long ago - and I see no reason to change my opinion. Deb (talk) 18:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  Comment: That was an entirely different survey. What were your reasons then anyways? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  See the archives. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. I still am convinced that we need to use english, to be generally understood. All details can be decorated to the article text, with plenty of explication. Henq (talk) 19:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. It would only be fair that those who will be working on improving these articles get their way in naming them. I have unwatched the lot as my efforts have produced shoddy academic pedantry which looks like vandalism. For the next six months at least I'll go and do something else instead and David Lauder and Deb and John and Sanders and Tharkun Coll and Good Day and Anderson, armed with the Pears Junior Cyclopedia, etc, can surely do better than me. I look forward to the rush of featured articles. Have fun, Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC) [Changed to support. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)]

Comment I've never read any Pears Junior Cyclopedia, clarify please. GoodDay (talk) 20:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

What can I say? I unreservedly withdraw the baseless claim that your knowledge of this subject is based on academic pedantry like the Pears Junior Cyclopedia. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Your comments show a level of personal attack which is unacceptable on Wikipedia. You do not own the articles to which you refer and that is the inference. Any more disgraceful remarks referring to others in a thinly veiled manner as intellectual idiots using Pears Junior Cyclopedia as their only reference books and I will pursue a complaint against you until satisfaction. You need to get a grip. David Lauder (talk) 11:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

See here. The respect for knowledge and expertise on this project is just shocking. No wonder it's so mocked in the outside world. It's so sad that a guy with the character Angus has has finally been overwhelmed by it. I have spoken of this often, and [ it's hardly an undiscussed phenomenon; and whenever one tries to deal with it, one's burden gets supplemented by well-intentioned self-righteous blunderers with sysop privileges. Knowledge on wiki equals arrogance; protecting quality equals "edit-warring", arbitrarily punishable unless one spends most of one's days giving history lessons on talk pages. Revert power, time and energy are everything! Angus aims for accuracy, quality and hence upward conformity in history articles, as is natural in science and other such articles and for anyone with a normal professional mindset, but he's told that low is good (apols to John who should be praised for at least showing evidence of understanding the issues). So is it really a surprise that it's all finally got to a guy even as laid back as Angus? Good luck getting decent articles here with Deb and the bunch, who don't even bother to read any of the debate they expect to have a say in when they suddenly take an interest in subjects they don't have a clue about. I hope you're all happy about driving Angus away. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This attitude is quite unworthy of you both. If you are going to contribute constructively to wikipedia, you have to learn that you can't always have your own way. If you can't accept that, then I'm sorry to say it's probably better if you do leave. And for your information, I did most of the groundwork on the articles for British kings and queens on which you later built. Deb (talk) 21:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I reckon it would be unwiki for me to keep editing in any field where the work I'm doing is opposed by quite so many editors. It's only fair to let those who feel they can do better have their chance. Perhaps I'm being unduly smug and self-satisfied but I see my attitude here as being rather more generous and in line with the best interests of the project than the usual course of events. No dramas and ANI or RfCs, just six months of peace and quiet to get on with editing. What is your problem here exactly? Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

As for me, I would merely like to be able to read the articles when done, and compare what we say on these kings with ODNB (I don't have a Junior Encyclopedia) without trying to guess the Gaelic from the pronunciation. I think many of our readers have the same preferences. If you want to start an e-journal of early Scottish History, by all means do so; but this cannot be it. Please learn when to write for a general audience (and do read WP:OWN). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your intentions here are good, but such advice will more probably than not come across as patronizing and misguided. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You are correct that it is not so intended; however, I do not see that the poster of "...and Anderson, armed with the Pears Junior Cyclopedia" (of which I have never heard) has much ground for complaint. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I suspect that the Pears Junior Cyclopedia is a British reference work comparable to the U.S.', Golden Book Encyclopedia, which may still be in existence. The GBE was geared towards primary school children. I have often thought that the latter has been used to bolster arguments, or used to even write articles on these pages. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Angus, I'm genuinely sorry to hear this. I have nothing but respect for the work you've been doing in improving articles on medieval Scottish history, and I'm sorry that you feel your contributions aren't valued because of what really ought to be fairly minor disagreements over nomenclature. I hope you reconsider. But Septentrionalis is right about WP:OWN - compromises with the hoi polloi are always going to be part of wikipedia. john k (talk) 21:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  John, that's not what's gotten to him. It's much deeper and broader, and you'll get a better idea if you follow his recent contribs and mine (although you probably need to have his expertise to identify the true extent of his frustration). The past week he has been bombarded with low quality tendentious editing and demands on his time. It's demoralizing. Top quality editors like Angus (and he is an editor of the finest quality) should be protected and helped, not recommended to leave. BTW Deb, those articles are nothing you should be boasting about. And if you want to be taken seriously, practice what you preach and contribute constructively, not impune people with base motivations. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me Deacon, but I do understand why you and Angus prefer Gaelic on those articles. Those Gaelic names were what those monarchs were known by in their lifetimes. But I still disagree with 'moving the pages' to Gaelic titles. GoodDay (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly support as regards getting rid of the anachronistic 'of Scotland', numbered nonsense. Fairly neutral concerning the Gaelic/English controversy. Q·L·1968 ☿ 20:26, 2
• Strong support. "Use English" does not mean "naively anglicize". --Lysy^talk 00:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

  You're right. It doesn't. It means "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article". We're not talking about creating new forms, we're talking about maintaining usage of the commonly used forms which most readers recognise these people by. Michael Sanders 00:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose moves to foreign language names per WP:UE, WP:COMMONNAME, and common sense. — AjaxSmack 04:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose I cannot pretend to be an expert of the history of Scotland, however even I have heard of many of the supposedly unknown Kings by their numerals in my time studying English history, the flight of Edgar Ætheling to the court of Malcolm III springs to mind. Narson (talk) 11:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support many who opposes this move points to naming conventions, but conventions are not set in stone. Plus 'of Scotland' should be eliminated, ASAP. M.K. (talk) 13:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose (rather strongly) Its the English wikipedia not gaelic.
  Notice for instance Francis I of France; he's a French king, absolutely nothing to do with England but the article is still at the English version of his name not Francois 1er.--Him and a dog 15:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Have done some research, and have read the arguments. Kenneth MacAlpin does not strike me as being Gaelic. Dr. Dan (talk) 21:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"Kenneth MacAlpin" is probably more common than "Kenneth I of Scotland" in English usage. The others, however, are never used in common references, and as David Lauder has pointed out above not even all Scots would recognise them. Michael Sanders 00:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Support - agree that "of Scotland" is inaccurate, and that "Use English" does not mean "naively anglicize". - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)changing to Strong Support per Piggie - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right. It doesn't. It means to use English forms if they are more commonly used. They are. Nobody ever calls these people by the Gaelic forms, and it is insulting to the vast majority of the readers who know about these monarchs by their English names to use forms which barely anyone uses. Michael Sanders 00:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Nobody ever calls these people by the Gaelic forms <- You seriously believe that? Or do you believe that the modern historians of the subject are members of the category "nobody"? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I am sure some of the early kings may have this, but come on, you seriously want us to buy that Malcolm III is more commonly known by his Gaelic name? I have seen him referred to has Malcolm III, Malcolm III of Scotland, Malcolm III Canmore, Malcolm Canmore (King Malcolm III). Isn't there a manual of style on how we refer to monarchs? Mind you I fear this discussion will get invalidated like the Franz J Strauss one due to the messages you scattered about the place on peoples talk pages. Narson (talk) 02:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

you seriously want us to buy that Malcolm III is more commonly known by his Gaelic name <- I'd love to see where you got that argument from Narson. Shame hardly anyone has read this proposal. Anyways, what's this about messages on talk pages? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Because you requested we move him, as we use the name people would expect to find a page at (WP:UCN) you are therefore making the argument that people expect to find Malcolm III at Máel Coluim mac Donnchada. If you arn't, I apologise, but then I really have to question why you want the page moved if you acknowledge it isn't the name by which most would know him? As to talk pages, I was referring to the fact you left quite a few messages (that were almost all identical) on many users talk pages pointing them to this debate. The first bullet point in the WP:CANVASS 'generally accepted guideline' bit is: Be open. Do not make cross-posts that initially appear to be individual messages.. While not wrong, a similar action by Unschool at the Franz Josef Strauss article got the entire move discussion halted. Narson (talk) 04:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Struck my previous post, I had missed a key line from WP:UCN, and the tone of the rest was getting too snippy. However, I would like to point to number 8 on the monarchy naming conventions: No family or middle names, except where English speakers normally use them. I would take this to include patronyms... Narson (talk) 04:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The reasons for the move request are on the proposal. As for WP:Canvas, you'll have to forgive me for being lazy ... don't see what different it makes though nor why it is not 'open'. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

What? That we need to be accurate? I'm afraid that so called 'accuracy' is not an overwhelming reason to use obscure names over the common names and ignore the naming conventions. Not to mention that accuracy could be taken to mean what he is widely known as or what the current sitters on the Scottish Throne use to describe their predecessors. As to the 'Of Scotland' why not use Picts or Alba or whatever is appropiate. We can explain in the articles that they are numbered as though they are Kings of all Scotland. Narson (talk) 04:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

One can explain that in the article without splattering it in the title. No? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Michael. No one? Insulting? Uh, yeah, I agree on the insulting part, but probably not the way you meant it. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 02:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Support Perhaps it's the language pendant in me that prefers accuracy over an erroneously Anglicized nomenclature of inaccuracy. I find the Gaelic more accurate as well as more evocative of the frame of reference around these people. This adds to understanding context and content of the articles. Pigman☿ 03:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, good points. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't going to butt into this survey, but these comments compelled me. Contra Kathryn, I think Pigman's points to be about the worst heretofore expressed in this exercise. First, "accuracy". If by accuracy is meant contemporary documents, he may have a point. But then, contemporary documents have varied forms in Gaelic and perhaps Latin. How do we decide which are the accurate ones in an era before standardised spelling? If a 10th-century scribe had come from a region where the spelling "Kenneth" was pronounced like Cinaed, he'd have written it that way and it would be the accurate form. And what do you know, Kenneth isn't so far off from Cinaed. And why is it that we don't use the Latin anyway? Applying this to other historical figures would change most of the names of pre-modern people. Charlemagne and Alexander the Great would go. Could we even use a non-Greek alphabet for Alex? Second, "erroneous Anglicisation". What makes an Anglicisation erroneous? Is the word "erroneous", taken from Latin errōneus, an erroneous Anglicisation? Who decides what words can and cannot be Anglicised? Who decides what the proper spellings of Anglicised words are? How does Pigman know they are erroneous? Does he mean non-contemporary? Will he support a move request to Carolus Magnus from Charlemagne? Wait, was "magnus" used of him in his lifetime? Most English words are "anglicisations". Most languages "icise" foreign names of historical figures and their speakers have every right to. Third, "evocative" and "context". Does it really aid in giving context? What context, really, does an unfamiliar "Cinaed" supply? I don't think anyone denies that Cinaed will be mostly unfamiliar to the readership. "Frame of reference"? But aren't we talking about half-Pictish figures, sometimes half-Norse, who ruled a Pictish gens/regnum and for a good chunk of the period under discussion preferred Latin for their documents? Some even had Latin names (Constantines) and some genuine Norse ones (e.g. Amlaib). So what do their Gaelic names supply? Nothing. Of course, the English ones are no better, maybe worse. The whole point is that the Anglicisations are not innaccurate in any valuable sense of the word nor are they erroneous (at all). And the context has to be supplied by reading the article. The names only help if background is given on the names. I think some background must be given on the names (Gaelic, Latin, Norse, English) and the ordinals in order to understand what is traditional about these monarchs, what the best research says, and what we can really know about them as people in a given time and place (context). Srnec (talk) 04:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, no-one before the modern era would have called him Kenneth. "Kenneth I of Scotland" is a cringeworthy inaccuracy in every way it could be. Virtually all sources covering Cinaed mac Ailpin before the Norman era were in Gaelic or Gaelic-Latin diglossic documents like the Chronicle of the Kings of Alba. K didn't exist in any insular language until the Normans imported it. As for non-Gaelic names ... well, names always go between languages and become naturalized. It's hardly confusing if the German wiki uses de:John Gielgud rather than Johann Gielgud or Yôḥānnān Gielgud. The context is that while firstly almost every one else in his world gets their names spelled in accurate or relatively accurate ways in modern writing, the Scottish kings stick out as sores. No, France, England and Germany aren't good contexts ... those areas in this period had names very much in keeping with modern naming in the English speaking world. No, this is more like calling Ivan IV of Russia John IV of Russia, whenever one else in his article is Ivan, Boris, etc. Surely, he is John, Ivan isn't an English name?! The context really does matter. Cinaed is a 9th century Picto-Scottish king, Kenneth is your mate you go ski-ing with, or whatever. You don't go ski-ing with Áed Oirdnide or Mael Muire. Anyways (love that word), the more important context is that scholars don't use these anglicized forms any more; Gaelic rulers get Gaelic forms, Norse rulers Norse forms, etc. But ... I don't want confuse by harping on as much about anglicizations just because others do ... as the proposal above indicates, it's not so much about using native names rather than anglicized ones, it's about abandoning the silly "X N of Y" formula, which is far worse an affliction for Scottish kings articles than having their names anglicized. Let's call Niall Frossach Nigel II of Ireland and Áed Allán Hugh IV of Ireland and we'll have something approaching a replication of the current Scottish situation. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Close, but no cigar. Let me try to be systematic. First, though, note that the comments I objected to were solely about Anglicisation (and maybe "of Scotland"), not enumeration.

The context is that while firstly almost every one else in his world gets their names spelled in accurate or relatively accurate ways in modern writing, the Scottish kings stick out as sores. Howso? Is "William the Conqueror" more or less accurate than his contemporary Norman French name? Is "Charlemagne"? What about other Dark Age kings, like the Carolingian Charles's or the Asturian Alfonsos? And almost all of these have variations in contemporary manuscripts. Anglicisation rules in medieval contexts, as you ought to know. The Scottish kings hardly stick out as sores. What about the Henries of France? Or the Peters and Johns of Aragon? Constantine seems accurate enough for a Scottish king if it's accurate enough for Constantine the Great.

France [...] and Germany aren't good contexts ... those areas in this period had names very much in keeping with modern naming in the English speaking world. And names like Malcolm, Kenneth, and Donald aren't common enough? I would say they may be as or more common than names like Henry, Louis, and Philip. You mean that Cinaed and Mael Coluim are uncommon today? Yes, but so are Ludovicus and Heinricus. I am not dead set against using original Gaelic forms, but I hate to see arguments against Anglicisation in general or alleging "innacuracy" and "error" in it. The really strong argument is "scholars don't use these anglicized forms any more", just like Anglophone Russian scholars never used John IV of Russia (much).

If you can find a tradition of calling Niall Frossach Nigel II of Ireland, you'd be right. But I think you should say that modern scholarship has simply discarded the notion that these kings belong in a Scottish monarchic succession. Fact is that both tradition and scholarship consider(ed) Cinead mac Ailpin to be Kenneth I of Scotland, while they do not consider Niall to be "Nigel II of Ireland" (I don't think). I am comfortable with working to change all this, which is why a suggested a separate discussion on how we could name these figures if we were going to try and scrap the "of Scotland" bit. Finally, note that I recognise the trend in historical studies of keeping to non-Anglicised forms, but I am not yet convinced that as a widespread phenomenon it is anything more than a fad. There is no strong reason to use the idealogical Pedro or Pere where one could just use Peter. Srnec (talk) 06:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference, Srnec, between between recognizing that Cinaed mac Ailpin is often called Kenneth I (of Scotland is kinda redundant) and considering him as you implied the first Kenneth to have ruled either his kingdom or Scotland. He isn't considered such. As I said to John before, the issue of anglicization is partly gonna be a philosophical issue where both sides prolly aren't gonna move much by argument. But to address some of your other points. Names in Gaelic are particularly significant because they represent a distinct body of names, rather than differing pronunciations of common names such as Petrus (as a note, only a handful of "common" names crept into Gaelic before the 12th cent. because Christian names were generally avoided through Gilla and Mael prefixes; Duncan, Malcolm, Donald and Kenneth are recognizable names today because they were royal names, names hereditary to the royal dynasty ... and they were virtually unused in the English speaking world until recently as Scottish immigrants spread them, and all three have come via Lowland Scots). Neither Gaelic speaking countries were in the Roman Empire nor got taken over by Germans, which distinguishes it much from the rest of western Europe. Also importantly for the impressionistic point you're trying to drive home; Gaelic was a written language ... no other living western European language was until just about Kenneth's own time, when English and Welsh were joining it. There were standard ways of writing names, even if some scribes didn't always have perfect "literacy" ... i.e. knowledge of how to adhere to the "standard" forms (though they usually do). This is an important point for your impressionistic argument. Scholars have these names to use, and so use them. The Germanic variety mother-tongue to Carolus Magnus wasn't a written language, so Latin was the only language in which his name (something like Carol or Carl) could be standardized; Latin names aren't used to refer to medieval secular figures, so scholars don't have the option of synchronising his name into a system like they do with insular languages. That lies behind the very relevant fact that scholars call Charlemagne Charlemagne, but Kenneth MacAlpin Cinaed mac Ailpin. This isn't a fad either ... no scholar, no scholar specializing in pre-Norman Scottish history will call Cinaed MacAlpin Kenneth unless he has to ... you simply won't encounter it today unless you read and old or tertiary book. An entire generation of undergraduates moreover have studied these kings almost entirely in these forms, and to them (as I can testify) names such as "Kenneth I" and "Donald I" are almost unrecognizable; Nigel II of Ireland would give you a good way into this impression. They come across as unspeakable anachronisms. That is not the case with Charlemagne or William the Conqueror, and you can't make it so because you desire comparisons. Maybe it's not rational, but that's the way it is. All <- that btw is just to respond to your point, and is not to advance those forms per se. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 07:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

"An entire generation of undergraduates" wouldn't happen to have been Scottish would they? Perhaps all at least passingly familiar with Gaelic? You're right, it is about impressions and that creates an impasse, but I would still like to find a better way to refer to these kings than the current one in light of current scholarship without resorting to forms which are undeniably obscure for anybody familiar with these kings by their traditional identifiers, as I am still. And, no, I have no great ideas. Srnec (talk) 07:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I really don't think Scottish-ness is a factor; most of the scholars concerned aren't Scottish, but North American, Irish or (other) British. While I don't know the proportion of Scots taking courses with Benjamin Hudson at Pennsylvania State University is, it isn't very high at the Universities of St Andrews, Edinburgh, Oxford and Cambridge (prolly is at Glasgow), and I don't believe knowledge of Gaelic is ever a course requirement (wouldn't help that much anyways). I came up with a provision at User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/King moves which avoided the native names first, before I tried this ... you could check that out and say what you think. I don't think, even with a negative outcome here, keeping the current names is really a long-time option. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose, with comment, for now. I am most in line with john k's thinking on this whole issue. Sadly, this issue is at least three rolled into one: Anglicisation, enumeration, and "of Scotland". I can sympathise with wanting to gut all three, but I do not want Malcolm III of Scotland at a Gaelic title. Since most ordinals are anachronistic, yet used, I cannot see that alone as a reason to abandon them. Many inaccurate enumerations survive, see the monarchs of Sweden. Or England. And the "of Scotland" I would love to see revised, but these figures are known as Scottish kings. The fact that the nomenclature evolved over time so that most of them never called themselves Scottish kings in their lifetime is not reason enough to abandon it without a stronger alternative. The patronymics are obscure to me and uninformative/nondescript. I think we need to have this discussion, but perhaps one issue at a time. I vote to discuss revising the "of Scotland" first. Srnec (talk) 04:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose it is irresponsible to try to rename two dozen individuals with one discussion. There are arguments which could be made either way for each of these individuals. They should be treated individually. Noel S McFerran (talk) 05:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support. It seems like common sense that we should use the same titles and names which are used by current (English) scholars. I don't see how anyone can become confused when entering an article - one would only have to read about three words before the "sometimes known as" or "also known as", and voila they just might find that name they first read on a website. If the bulk of the sources used point to "Cináed son of Alpín" why should the article use "Kenneth I of Scotland"? If kings are not styled "I", "II", or "III of Scotland" in current works then why should we? The only argument is that it goes against some policy, but Deacon and others pointed out that scholars neither use these names or this numbering system. If we want these articles to be as accuartate and as up-to-date as possible, then blindly following some policy is a detriment to wikipedia. I think the changes requested are made with the best intentions of accuracy, so i support them.--Celtus (talk) 08:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is simply untrue to claim that current scholars use the Gaelic spellings. As an example the late Marion Campbell, a Scot, used the Anglicised spellings of those Scottish kings she referred to in her recent biography of Alexander III. Maybe some scholars are using Gaelic spellings - but how many of the people who read them are going to be bothering with wikipedia? We have to worry about with the far greater number of people who have read a bit about the Scottish monarchs in a general context and under an anglicised name, and want to find out more about them - and who aren't going to be particularly happy if they go to wikipedia, a work of general presentation, and find out they are being excluded for the sake of a chimerical accuracy which, as Srnec pointed out above, isn't even that accurate! Michael Sanders 15:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Marion Campbell isn't a specialist scholar, but no matter the period she writes in is late; scholar writing in the area concerned have indeed abandoned anglicized naming ... and it's pretty much universal. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I know Marion Campbell isn't a scholar (although she did do a lot of research)...that's the point. Few people who are reading scholars will come to wikipedia. Many people who read writers like Marion Campbell will. Michael Sanders 16:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: It matters not a bit what "current scholars" or so-called "specialist scholars" are doing, wish to do, or what their disciples want followed. This is the English-language Wikipedia. Naming forms have been established down through the centuries in virtually all our history books, and these forms have been used in our greatest Histories of Scotland by established scholars. It is madness to have page titles in a form which is essentially foreign to 99.9% of the English-speaking world. Put the Gaelic form in the texts, certainly. Regards, David Lauder (talk) 19:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. In English these are all far more commonly known by their English-format names. I might even support the movement to change this, but it hasn't yet happened, and probably won't happen any time soon. Andrewa (talk) 04:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Honestly people, this is going too far. Having the gaelic in a secondary style on these articles, was fine. But moving the articles to gaelic? When will it end? GoodDay (talk) 17:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The proposal is also dishonest. The nominator claims that men such as Duncan I, Malcolm III and Donald III (Donalbane) are unknown in the English-speaking world - which I think readers of Macbeth, or for that matter anyone interested in that period of history, would challenge. The proposal also uses inconsistent Gaelicisations of "Constantine", which appear to be historically dubious and dependent less upon established usage and more upon the whims of whoever first Gaelicised the articles. And, finally, given that there are plenty of other monarchs in similar positions, it is inconsistent to follow this policy here and nowhere else - but I seriously doubt anyone favours moving William I of England to Guillaume le Bâtard, or Charles II of Spain to Carlos el Hechizado. Michael Sanders 17:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm a layman folks; all these Gaelic words are decorative & I don't mind them in a secondary style (as they once were). But things are getting out of hand now; little guys (like me) are being crushed by these Professor-like changes (that only Professors can appreciate). GoodDay (talk) 18:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to note that I think Deacon and Angus are trying to claim a unique situation for medieval Scottish monarchs, when in fact this same situation exists with most non-English European monarchs. My readings rather strongly suggest to me that more recent scholarly writing in English tends more and more to not use anglicizations for the names of any continental monarchs. One is increasingly likely to see Felipe II of Spain, Friedrich II of Prussia, Frederik VI of Denmark, Henri IV of France, and so forth. This isn't nearly universal yet, and especially the more textbooky books tend to stick with familiar anglicizations, but it's certainly a growing trend. In many ways, sticking to a "native form" rule for continental monarchs would make things simpler, in that we'd know which form to use for most everyone. It has been generally decided, however, that this is not how we should do things, and that we should use the "most common name" for monarchs. Thus, Frederick the Great retains his anglicized name, for instance. This is arguably misleading and less accurate in similar ways to the anglicizations of the names of Scottish monarchs. Not exactly the same, obviously, as the anglicizations were (mostly) in use at the time, but I'm uncertain why that should be the dispositive issue. At any rate, the decision has been that, because more generalist works, and older works, and references in other media, and so on and so forth, are most likely to be to the anglicized forms, we should use them. I don't see why this doesn't apply to the Scottish monarchs. Beyond that, I'm not completely clear on what's supposed to be wrong with the anglicized forms. Name forms are always adapted to different languages. Whether or not this is anachronistic seems irrelevant - certainly Mark Antony and Pompey are anachronistic forms, and that doesn't bother us. The ordinals used are, of course, arbitrary, but ordinals are always arbitrary. Yes, Constantine I ruled over the same country as Causantin of the Picts, whose name is the same as his, and the ordinals don't function properly. But so what? Edward I reigned over the same country as Edward the Confessor, and the ordinals don't function properly. As far as I'm aware, Sweden did not have actual historical kings named Charles I-VI - Charles VII was the first king by that name. The numbering of early French kings is entirely fucked up. The other issue, as I understand it, is "of Scotland" - again, though, I don't think anachronistic titles are that much of a problem, so long as we are clear in article text. For a notable comparison, see the western emperors between Charlemagne and Frederick III - these men were simply called "Emperors" or "Roman Emperors." The term "Holy Roman Emperor" is anachronistic, only having been adopted in the fifteenth century. But there's no other good way to call these people, so we're stuck with it. The situation here seems similar. In sum, when one looks at this stuff through a broader lens than scholarly literature on medieval Scottish history, one sees that these problems are not unique, and that the way Deacon and Angus propose that we solve them does not match the way we have solved similar problems in other areas of wikipedia. john k (talk) 18:14, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I must say I'm not a big fan of the argument ... ";there are problems elsewhere so let's not try to fix anything". One risks descending into some half-dreamlike maze of circularity. "Swedish kings should be moved" : "No, no, no, look at the Scottish kings, they have the same problem". And need I really enumerate all the reasons square pegs don't fit into round holes?

Honestly, do you think Causantín mac Cuiléin is more comparable to Frederick the Great than Kenneth MacAlpin is? Really? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not my position. My argument is "there are problems elsewhere that we have solved, without too much argument, in a particular way. We should use these as models for our situation here." There are obviously some outstanding problems, but calling the king of Sweden "Carl XVI Gustaf" rather than "Carl X Gustaf" (which would be incredibly confusing, given that the real king Charles X was also a Carl Gustaf) is most definitely not among them. Obviously we shouldn't try to make all problems fit together, but we shouldn't also pretend that comparisons are useless. One of the distinctive facts about Wikipedia as compared to monographs on medieval Scottish history is that Wikipedia is much more than a work of reference on Scottish history. Comparable problems should be dealt with comparably, so far as is possible. As to your last question, I don't really understand what you're getting at. Using "Kenneth McAlpin" is similar to using "Frederick the Great." Using "Causantín mac Cuiléin" is like using "Friedrich II." john k (talk) 19:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

John, horse for courses! If you find you are relying on exotic parallels for your best arguments, you probably have a problem. I do understand where you are coming from though; it's just a philosophical difference, and arguing until the cows come home probably won't sway either of us. I do honestly believe though that if you became immersed in this subject, you would have much more empathy with us. Maybe that wouldn't be a good thing I hear you mutter, but nevertheless. Anyways, what I was getting at was that Kenneth MacAlpin may be comparable with Friedrich II, Causantín mac Cuiléin is not. You'll notice that Kenneth MacAlpin is the proposed destination for Kenneth I of Scotland (I suspect it will end up there anyways).Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I think I see what you're getting at - Friedrich II is too famous to be a good example. So what about, I dunno, Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel? Comparable obscurity levels, I think. And I do feel sympathy for your position - my inner pedant really does want to call minor 18th century German potentates by their German names, and I don't know that that would necessarily be worse than the current solution. But I think that the "principle of least surprise" is a good one, and I think it should be applied uniformly. And I don't see why Scottish names present sufficiently distinct issues as to constitute a good exception. john k (talk) 22:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Like I said above, it's just a philosophical difference, and arguing until the cows come home probably won't sway either of us. It's funny, you always present me with situations in articles I've never went anywhere near, and expect me to be persuaded. I'll tell you explicitly, I'm an issue by issue kind of guy. Just quickly, I don't see why Frederick, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel shouldn't be Friedrich, etc. Scottish articles have problems, and I'm just trying to fix 'em ... problems with articles like this just don't make this any harder or easier. I'd need to spend time getting into the nitty-gritty; I, unlike some others, don't think it's best for wikipedia to spout opinions on areas I know little about just because I can (and I'm not referring to you here). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• My parallel would be Ptolemy II Philadelphus. There it is absolutely certain that the numbering is an anachronism (I believe by 1700 years) and that the spelling is completely an English invention. Some people would write Ptolemaeus; some would write Ptolemaios Philadelphos, and Aeschylus Aischulos. This helps neither the scholar, who will see the Greek through any one these forms, nor the Greekless lay reader, who will expect Ptolemy and wonder if he sees Ptolmaeus whether this is someone else he's never heard of.
• My question is, if Deacon can make it clear, why should Kenneth be treated differently than Ptolemy, or the Langgrave Frederick, who are so called both in and out of Wikipedia? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Moving those articles to Gaelic names is too much. It's decorative, but unreadable. GoodDay (talk) 18:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but is it Rory O'Connor? No. Howell the Good? No. Dermot MacMurrough? Not that much longer. I'd think that Ireland and Wales are a better guide to Scotland than France. "Kenneth MacAlpin"'s daughter Máel Muire doesn't marry a Charles or a Robert or an Alfred, she marries Áed mac Néill and then Flann mac Máele Sechnaill, her children are called Domnall mac Flainn and Niall Glúndub and Ligach. The non-regnal names that appear in the histories are similarly "decorative, but unreadable". Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it should be Rory O'Connor and Dermot MacMurrough, probably. But Scottish names are not nearly so non-anglicized as the Irish ones. john k (talk) 19:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

In cases where there is no commonly used anglicisation, it would be unfair to make up an anglicisation to reassure the vast majority of us who are unfamiliar with Gaelic. But where there is a name more commonly recognised in English than Gaelic? It should be used, regardless of what anyone else in the same time period is being referred to as (again, the Romans - should we change Pompey to Pompeius because Caesar married Pompeia?). Gaelic names for people without alternatives are not 'decorative but unreadable', they are "difficult but necessary due to no accepted alternatives". Gaelic names for people with commonly used English alternatives are just pretty pedantry. Michael Sanders 19:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

See also our guideline for Irish names, at WP:IRISH; which certainly supports Dermot MacMurrough, as it expressly does Geoffrey Keating. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, how about that? It sure does, doesn't it? Of course, whether something "enjoys widespread usage among English speakers" is doing all the work here. Obviously that's a part, at least, of our disagreement here. john k (talk) 19:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't expect to be insulted by Angus & Deacon in the 'Survey'. No hard feelings though, I forgive them. GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where from here

Perhaps the blanket move was in hindsight not the best start for this. My suggestion is that one of the proponents might relist whichever of the moves is in their opinion best justified, on its own, and try to have a neater discussion on that specific name, while bearing in mind that if it succeeds then other proposals will follow, and trying not to repeat arguments already well answered here. And IMO it would be good to try to have less discussion in the survey section, although I know it's often hard to decide exactly when to draw the line, and always easier in hindsight to see where you should have. Andrewa (talk) 04:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Of Scotland

There are two centuries of kings here, and their relation to the modern kingdom of Scotland varies. Some of them have names which belong to the common namestock of Christian Europe, others don't. I am not immobile on the WP:NCNT stance of pre-emptive disambiguation; but a detailed proposal will be far more acceptable than a blanket move, and it should be a separate proposal from the Gaelic business, which has yet to supply reasons for preferring one set of Gaelic names above the others. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

No-one refers to these kings by modern Gaelic names. That's the way Welsh guys are done, and most other Europeans, but isn't the way it is done for Scottish and Irish folk. This has been stated on numerous occasions. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Having looked over the styles of these monarchs, I would be willing to concede all the requested moves save Caustantín of the Picts (for now, for consistency with other traditional Pictish monarchs) and the ones from Malcolm II on. I'd also support the suggested Lulach move, seeing as his reign was disputed. It seems that "Scotland" as a term for the realm these monarchs ruled comes into use during his reign. I would suggest treating all monarchs preceding Donald II as kings of the Picts and using the patronymics requested and treating monarchs between Donald II and Malcolm II as kings of Alba, using whatever forms we can get agreement on, be they patronymics (as requested) or another form (like X[, King] of Alba). This seems to be accurate as pertains to titles and I believe the issue of Anglicisation to be at an impasse, so why not split her down the middle and retain the current forms for Malcolm II onwards? From Duncan I, excepting Lulach, the monarchs with Gaelic names are reasonably famous by medieval standards and appear often enough in other media besides scholarly publications: for their connexions outside Scotland or their part in a certain famous play. (Perhaps I could accept the Duncan II move too... Was he really ever king?) Does anybody think this compromise could get support? Does it makes any sense?

And Deacon, you said above that Gaelic was "standardised" and that only by ignorance or error could a scribe alter a name's spelling, yet I notice that we have four Constantines in this proposal and three Gaelic spellings. Srnec (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem there is that even the pre-Malcolm II monarchs are still better known by their anglicisations (with the exception of the oh-so-obscure Dub, Cuilen, etc), however obscure they may be. They are also commonly described as "King of Scotland", however inaccurate that might be (Augustus was technically not 'Emperor' as we understand it, should we remove all references to that effect?). "Constantine II of Alba" would be an unused form, and would thus be utterly inappropriate - most readers would understand him as "Constantine II of Scotland" (and furthermore, "Alba" is Scotland. Using that would be a pointless and superficial change.) Furthermore, Duncan II and Lulach were kings by mediaeval Scottish standards (Lulach was even crowned)...Kings until they got killed off by the nearest pretender. Michael Sanders 00:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Kenneth I of Scotland → Kenneth MacAlpin — This move already seems to have widespread support. Kenneth MacAlpin is more common than Kenneth I of Scotland and it avoids all the issues with enumeration and "Scotland", leaving only the much more philosophical (and minor) dispute about Anglicisation unaddressed. Srnec (talk) 16:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• Weak support, although the Cinead dispute seems to be the heart of the matter. If this passes, WP:NCNT may need to be revisited. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Weak support. A lesser evil. Haukur (talk) 19:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• The proposed name is better than the current one in the same way that a slap round the ear with a wet kipper is to be preferred to a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support, it's the kipper and sharp stick thing alluded to by Angus. Anyways, Kenneth MacAlpin is how he is most referred to in the lingua anglica; Kenneth I of Scotland has got nothing to support it. Prefer Cináed mac Ailpín though, or even Ciniod m. Elphin. PS, WP:NCNT refers to states; I'm not sure how anthropologically accurated it is to refer to it as a state, but at any rate, we have use the most common form of the name used in English if none of the rules below cover a specific problem., which they certainly don't. Square pegs for square holes please! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support. This seems a perfectly sensible move. john k (talk) 04:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
• Weak Support Seems to make sense, as the 'of Scotland' is disputed, though I still imagine many will search for Kenneth I of Scotland from Kenneth II etc. It does seem bizzare though that the first sentence starts with his gaelic name, shouldn't it be with what we are accepting (by this vote) is his common name? ANd then list his gaelic names in brackets? Infact, I think a good example for how it should be is in the Æthelred Evilcouncil article: Ethelred II (c. 968 – 23 April 1016), also known as Ethelred the Unready or Aethelred the Unready (Old English Æþelræd Unræd) though possibly switch Kenneth MacAlpin and his regnal around. Narson (talk) 10:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.