Talk:Kenneth I of Scotland/Archive 1

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According to the Huntingdon Chronicle, he "was the first of the Scots to obtain the monarchy of the whole of Albania, which is now called Scotia."

Uhmmm, I am guessing this is not the same as the state of Albania (north of Greece, east of Italy) to which it currently points. --Dori 05:06, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

He was a king of Alba, not of Scotland or Scotia. During his time Scotia was used to mean what we now call Ireland, and this practice continued until perhaps the late 15th century. He was a king of Scots (Scots in Alba) but not a king of Scotia/Scotland.

Laurel Bush 16:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC).

Contents 1 Kings of Dalriada and the Picts 2 Quality 3 Direct descent from Fergus Mór to Elizabeth II 4 Reverse this move 5 Article naming 6 Requested move 6.1 Survey 6.1.1 Support 6.1.2 Oppose 6.2 Discussion 6.3 ridiculous 7 Name as it appears in encyclopedias 7.1 Encyclopedias 7.2 Dictionaries 7.3 Other reference works 7.4 Recent non-specialist histories 8 We are following the wrong procedure here

Kings of Dalriada and the Picts

The article currently states:

He soon obtained the Pictish throne in 843 and became the first king to rule the Picts of Pictavia and the Scots of Dalriada.

which appears to be contradicted by List of Kings of the Picts, which links to Constantine of Dalriada, Oengus of Dalriada, and Drust of Dalriada as the kings from 789 to 837. It seems to be the case that MacAlpin was not the first joint king, but was the first to unify the crowns, but I'd like to check this before changing the article. Assistance appreciated. --- Charles Stewart 19:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Quality

This article has several problems which make it of poor quality. I'll elucidate them in point form:

• The use of Haravard notes. This breaks up the text way too frequently with notes which are not even understandable to people not already familiar with the subject matter. One should not have to look ahead to the references to figure out what AU and AT mean.
• The insistence of Gaelic spellings which English speakers do not know how to pronounce and probably don't even recognise, despite the fact that nearly everbody knows Kenneth and Angus. This is an English encyclopaedia for common people, not a scholarly journal or a Gaelic encyclopaedia.
• Some bad grammar: including the use of en dashes sandwiched between spaces where em dashes are needed, the hyphen following a colon, a space before a question mark, etc.
• Why is he called a Gael and given a Gaelic name (used throughout) if his origins are uncertain and he was king of the Picts (not Scots, as this article tell it)? Why not give him a Pictish name? Is it because nobody speaks that anymore? Well I've got news: very few English speakers speak Gaelic.
• A monarchs of Scotland template is used even though the article argues agains calling him that. If he was the king of both Scots and Picts as the article still seems to say, why is there no good grounds for calling him the first king of Scotland?

To a reader who knows nothing of Gaelic and is not very familiar with Scottish history (though is familiary with medieval history), this article is of poor quality and I am even tempted to place a cleanup tag on it. The older version here is far better. Srnec 19:42, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The article is not poor. If you see some "bad grammar" - fix it! Don't whinge about it on the talk page. He was a Pictish king that spoke Gaelic, like Pictish kings before him and after. No-one argues he was actually a Pictish speaking Pict, but a Gaelic-speaking Pict. His Pictish name is Ciniod map Alpín. Ciniod/Cináed is probably Picish, and Alpín is English-derived Picto-Scottish name (from Ælfwine) The idea that Wikipedia should only use English is flawed, and moreover, is not applied, e.g. Władysław II Jagiełło. In fact, the only time anyone seems to bother is when it concerns Scottish Gaelic articles like this. Just because you don't like Gaelic forms, doesn't make the article of "poor quality", since User:Angusmclellan has made it one of the finest Scottish kings article here. What we've got now is a scholarly article that doesn't make specious claims, or ignore facts in order to create a spurious narrative. This is Dark Age history, it has to be scholarly. Wiki isn't supposed to be a dumping ground for Lowest common denominator articles, but as scholarly and informative as its editors can make it. If you can't handle some hard to pronounce names, learn to pronounce them, or use Simple English or Wikijunior. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 20:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Jagiello shouldn't be named like that either; I think there are also some Arabic articles that are at non-intuitive titles. The solution would be to fix those as well, but Polish editors are very stubborn, and, I guess, more numerous than the Scots. Adam Bishop 20:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair comments.

1. The origins section looks strange. Either it needs less in it, or, more likely, it needs more. I don't think that quoting the Duan was a great idea. Harvard notes were a very bad idea and will be changed to Cite.php for the reasons complained of.
2. As for the Gaelic names, they are used in Scots historiography, and as Calgacus notes, they are Pictish names, Gaelicised, anyway. These sorts of names are what you'd find in any book that would tell you more than the article does. What's the point of an LCD route, used only by books which would tell you less than WP does ?
3. As for the bad grammar, well, this is a collaborative effort. I'll fix any errors that catch my eye, and hopefully others will do the same. MoS issues like "Is this right?" or "Is it this ?", I could not care less about. I am inconsistent, I use the second one. But I use it consistently.
4. As for the absence of explanation of his gaeldom and pictdom, just so soon as my supplying answers to that question in the article does not cross the WP:OR line, then the article should answer it. Until then, try Picts and the start and end of Óengus I of the Picts.
5. The template ? I don't like it. Fixing it is indeed easy, but what about all the other material that tells the same story ? If I simply remove it, someone will put it back. I don't have the time, the energy or the inclination to attack the kinglist and the way it is presented, including the House of Dunkeld, "Queen" Margaret of Scotland and "King" Edward Balliol.
6. Apart from the points raised, some of which I believe need addressed anyway, in what way is this article notably worse than Constantine II of Scotland (Causantín mac Áeda, as the article calls him) ? Or is that just as bad, only you were too kind to say so ?

I suppose this means you won't like my rewrite of Macbeth of Scotland either. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:09, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I suspected my comments would engender the comments it has. Firstly, Calgacus, you pick one of five points in order to call me a "whiner." Some intellectual integrity would be nice. I would have modified the grammar if I didn't think the entire page needed to be fixed first. Believe it or not, I wouldn't have polished handrails on the Titanic, either.

As Adam Bishop apparently agrees, Jagiello shouldn't be named that way either, but don't change the subject. I do not peruse Wikipedia to find articles to complain about, I came upon this because it was placed at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle Ages/New Articles. Angus McLellan, you call these name Gaelicised Pictish names? I say, let's take it a step further and Anglicise them since this is an English encyclopaedia. I do not want to see these names removed, only put as secondary and not used in the main article. The statement that I should find out how to pronounce them is absurd. This is not an encyclopaedia to suggest we go search out pronunciations or learn foreign languages. Call the kings of England whatever you want on the Scottish Gaelic encyclopaedia, but do not call the kings of Scotland by Gaelic names here (unless there is no other way to do so, similar to the pattern applied to Spanish monarchs: Fernandos are Ferdinands, but Garcías are still Garcías).

Now, I'm glad to see the Harvard quotes go. I'm also gald to see some reasonable attempt to address my concerns by argumentation or implementation (of fixes). To make my whole position clearer: in English, we say Macbeth, therefore the English Wikipedia should use Macbeth, with Mac Bethad mentioned in the first line. It is not scholarly or informative if it is confusing. If modern scholars are using Gaelic names in there books, that's great. If I were writing about Spanish monarchs, I would probably favour Spanish names in many instances, but so what? This isn't the personal project of any individual (like a book or essay).

Finally, as for the issue raised in my last point, the article seems to simultaneously give good reasons for regarding him as the first king of Scotland and then tells us there are no good reasons to do so. This needs to be clarified so as to showcase the contention that "king of Scotland" is not a good title and supply the evidence to allow the reader to draw his own conclusion. Srnec 01:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, those arguments are all very well, but it's pretty subjective. Some people think names should be anglicized for the sake of it, some people think we should use contemporary forms. The choice is between scholarly articles and trashy popular histories. I know what one I'd go for, and what one wikipedia should aspire to. Go ask the Poles, they'll tell you the same thing. ;) Wikipedia ain't lowest common denominator. Here's one of many internet guides to Old Gaelic pronunciation. And sorry for calling you a whiner; but talk pages are to debate controversies and that sort of thing, small points of "grammar" are for page edits. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 02:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

You are probably forgetting that your audience is a bunch of high school kids trying to write an essay...this isn't the place to show off to fellow scholars :) Adam Bishop 02:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

There are still spaces in front of question marks and no doubt there are other heinous sins against the MoS, but those are likely to be corrected by bots and zealous AWB users. Otherwise I believe that I've gone some way to addressing the criticisms (or at least those I agreed with). Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, much improved. I still disagree with the naming, but because I do not care too much about Scottish articles, I think I best leave that to those who do to sort out. Srnec 02:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Let's use the standard English (including Scottish English) names in the English Wikipedia. Scottish Gaelic for the Scottish Gaelic Wikipedia, English for the English Wikipedia. At present the page title and the body text are not in agreement. Greenshed 23:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't place much weight on the article name, it was done a long a time ago. Indeed, it says Kenneth I of Scotland. On that basis, should the article refer to him as king of Scotland ? The title King of Scots is unknown before Mac Bethad mac Findláich, although there might be a slim and probably unverifiable case for starting of Scots/Scotland with Máel Coluim mac Cináeda. Between Causantín mac Áeda and sometime in the 11th century, the correct title would seem to be of Alba. But renaming articles is fraught and tedious, and I have other things I would prefer to do. I don't have a great problem with calling him Kenneth mac Ailpín, and can just about tolerate Kenneth mac Alpín, but Kenneth I is grossly inaccurate while Kenneth MacAlpin is anachronistic. Of course, that's just me, but I see no reason why the medieval history of Scotlandshire should be a special case where prescriptive policies like WP:OR and WP:V take second place to the normative conventions of the MoS. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

My central point is that the English Wikipedia should use standard English (spellings in other languages or uncommon spellings can, of course, be listed -usually in parentheses in the opening paragraph). As to the disagreement between the title and the text, either the text should be amended (which I strongly favour) or the page should be moved. Regarding the question of the title "King of Scots" I don't feel qualified to assert an opinion, except to observe that the current page title does not describe Kenneth I as a king, just as "of Scotland". 88.105.137.225 00:18, 20 April 2006 (UTC) The preceeding comments were mine (I failed to observe that I was not logged in). Greenshed 00:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

To give a small input from our small, but overall excellent Norwegian Wikipedia, we try to give the Gaelic name first within the article, as we understand our Scottish friends would like that, but do keep and link to the formal English-like name in brackets, like this Cináed mac Ailpín (Kenneth I of Scotland) as most Norwegian readers would tend to know the English version of Scottish history. That way we tend to get the best of both worlds, being informative and doing some adult education at the same time. At the same time I must say that English historians and popular historians seem to show the almost zero consistency toward Norwegian or Danish historical names. I have been thinking to construct a blog showing all the different instances I have come across of, for instance, king Håkon Håkonsson. It’s a never-ending story. --FinnBjo 14:00, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Direct descent from Fergus Mór to Elizabeth II

Please see the discussion here:

• Talk:List_of_monarchs_of_Scotland#Direct_descent_from_Fergus_M.C3.B3r_to_Elizabeth_II

--Mais oui! 10:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverse this move

This article should be at Kenneth I of Scotland not here. Kenneth is what he is known as in English and is how he is denoted in English language encyclopedias - the Gaelic original should be noted int he title. Yes, I do know that the Gaelic is his 'propername' - but this is the ENGLISH language wikipedia. We don't redirect Germany to Deutschland - we use the common Enlish language term. --Aoratos 01:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The difference between the parallel you cite and this is that Cináed I is used in English, and by contemporary scholars, Cináed is used more than Kenneth. Cináed reflects current scholarly usage, as wikipedia indeed should. "Kenneth I of Scotland" is in any case is rare in English; Kenneth MacAlpin is more common, and indeed there are redirects from Kenneth MacAlpin and Kenneth I of Scotland to this name, so there is no real problem. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 01:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd be happy with this article being at Kenneth MacAlpin. However, if you can provide some evidence for your claim Cináed is used more than Kenneth. Cináed reflects current scholarly usage, - then I'll withdraw my objection. --Aoratos 13:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey again. I could make the evidence quite exhaustive, and spend hours writing out a bibliography. Suffice it to say, read anything by scholars who work in this area, i.e. Dauvit Broun, Alex Woolf, Thomas Owen Clancy, James E. Fraser, David Dumville, etc. Those pages have bibliographies of the authors, or else bibliographies in the external links. But I think the point in sufficiently made by looking at the recently published book, Viking Empires. The book is broad in scope, designed to have a broad (if educated) readership. Look up "Kenneth" in the index, you'll find nothing. Look up Cináed, and there you go ,you find his references. It's this kind of thing which means Wikipedia really ought to reflect current scholarship, because this is where wikipedia readers will go afterwards. Now, if wiki had no redirect functions, then I'd agree that it should have been left at Kenneth; but as it does have redirect functions, there is no problem. Given this, I think it'd be very difficult to find arguments which can be comfortably set against what has already been said. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 13:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, you may have just about convinced me. (Although I reserve the right to come back when I've though about it a bit more). Thanks for the detailed response. --Aoratos 14:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Put me down as one of those who would strongly prefer the vernacular names of Scottish Kings. For the same reason we don't have articles on H2O or Carcharodon carcharias.--Nydas 21:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, how on earth do you work that parallel out? Cináed, btw, is vernacular, not Latin. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I meant vernacular in the sense of everyday language. --Nydas 15:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no ideal solution. The principle which governs naming is supposedly the principle of least astonishment. In this case we can't avoid astonishment: when people arrive here they'll persumably know that the subject was king of Scotland (no), and perhaps that he conquered the Picts (no) and founded Scotland (no). So the issue is not whether people are surprised by the content, but what sorts of surprises are tolerable. Whether we call the page Kenneth or Cináed, it is going to be full of weird, nasty, un-anglo-saxon names like Drest, Alpín, Eochaid, Domangart, Gabran, Bridei, Beli, Talorcen, Eógan, Boant, Nechtan, Áed and Máel Muire. It makes more sense to me to avoid the cognitive dissonance of a name appearing in one form if, and only if, it is applied to a monarch, and in a different one when it is applied to anyone else. A degree of astonishment is unavoidable, but we can at least avoid the dissonance. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's that surprising, given that the situation here is pretty common throughout Wikipedia. Besides, the Alfred the Great article contains loads of weird, nasty anglo-saxon names like Aethelwulf, Osburga, Ealhswith, Ethelfleda, Egbert, Ethelbald, Aelfthryth, Ethelgiva and Egdiva. --Nydas 17:59, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[Applause] Indeed, and what kind of names would you expect in an article about an Anglo-Saxon ? Or here ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The point being that it's not very astonishing. --Nydas 19:13, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Neither is using Cináed mac Ailpín. Encarta, not exactly the source of radical new scholarship, opens its "Kenneth I" article "Kenneth I , more properly Cinaed mac Ailpín ...". Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Using Cináed mac Ailpín is more astonishing than Kenneth, at least if the difference in Google hits is anything to go by. [1] [2]

It's not a case of which is the more scholarly, or correct, but which is the most likely to be recognised by English speakers. --Nydas 20:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

This has been covered. There are redirects from all the popular modern English versions of this guy's name. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

It is not consistent with Wikipedia: Naming policy to redirect away from the most commonly name used in English. --Nydas 06:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This would be a reasonable point were it not for the fact that it was never at the most commonly used name in English and that reversing the move won't put it there. All your googling demonstrates is that the previous name was "wrong" too, although that's invariably justified by recourse to another, subsidiary guideline. It is not consistent with Wikipedia: Naming policy to redirect away from the most commonly name used in English, except when it is, which is surprisingly often. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

If I understand you right, you're saying that because the naming policy on monarchs stipulates that they should be known by their name + number + country, (i.e. not the most popular English 'name'), it allows the name itself to be changed. I don't really buy that, since the addition of 'of Scotland' is simply pre-emptive disambiguation. In addition, the naming conventions specifically state that the name should be 'the most common form used in current English works of general reference.' --Nydas 18:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The default case of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) doesn't apply here. Looking down the list, per item 1, the subject didn't rule a modern country and, per item 3, Scotland isn't the correct name of the state that he's incorrectly supposed to have ruled if you wanted to have that piece of inaccurate information included in the page title. In addition exclusions 3 and 4 apply here. Whatever the correct name here is, it certainly isn't Kenneth I of Scotland because the naming policy on monarchs tells us so. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

That inaccurate information is in the name just now, and is clarified in the introduction. Regarding ruling a 'modern country', one assumes that Cleopatra VII of Egypt's Egypt was as different from modern Egypt as Kenneth's Scotland is from modern Scotland. In any case, this is a sideshow - I point again to where it says: "Nevertheless, Monarch's first name and Country should both be the most common form used in current English works of general reference." --Nydas 21:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

And I must point out the two exceptions. They're there for a reason. I'm more than willing to discuss moving the article, but only in line with policy, usage in reference works (and my judgement inevitably). Who says the subject ruled Scotland and who says he's known as Kenneth I ? The 171-word masterpiece in the EB ? Well, that should count for a lot. Encarta ? Well that says his name is "more properly Cinaed mac Ailpín". The Oxford Companion to Scottish History says "Kenneth mac Alpin (Cinaed mac Ailpín) was king of the Picts". No regnal number, no Scotland. Smyth's Warlords and Holy Men indexes him as "Kenneth mac Alpin (Cináed mac Ailpín)" and usually but not invariably refers to him as Kenneth mac Alpin in the text. "Kenneth I" appears once, in a table which may not have been done by the author. Most of the books littering the place are not likely to be seen as "general" reference works, but the Blackwell Enyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England should be. It doesn't have an article on him, but it mentions, under Picts, one "Cinaed mac Alpin". Sally Foster's Picts, Gaels and Scots is introductory, and it says "Cinaed mac Ailpín", so (I think) does Driscoll's Alba. Wormald's Scotland indexes him as "Cinaed son of Ailpín (Kenneth mac Alpin)" and calls him that at the first mention, after which he is Cinaed. Barrell has "Kenneth MacAlpin". Magnusson has "Kenneth mac Alpin (Cinaed mac Ailpin) also known as Kenneth I". The Oxford History of Britain has "Kenneth Mac Alpin". Harvie's (Oxford) Scotland: A Short History has "Kenneth mac Alpin". The New Cambridge Medieval History probably has "Kenneth mac Alpin" and also "Cinaed mac Ailpin (Kenneth I)". The Biographical Dictionary of Dark Age Britain has "Kenneth mac Alpin". The Oxford Companion to British History appears to use "Kenneth MacAlpin", "Kenneth I" and "Kenneth I MacAlpin" at random, as may Foster's Oxford History of Ireland. Tabraham & Baxter, Illustrated History of Scotland uses "Kenneth MacAlpin", as does Mackie's History of Scotland, British History for Dummies, Rosalind Mitchison's A History of Scotland, "Kenneth mac Alpin" is in Oxford Illustrated History of the British Monarchy, Snyder's The Britons, Davies's The Isles and Fry's History of Scotland. Edward James's Britain in the First Millennium says "Cinaed mac Alpin (Kenneth mac Alpine)". There are several choices there, but Kenneth I isn't really a front runner. I could add all manner of far-from-general works, but I'll leave that for later. Missing for the list: Duncan's The Making of the Kingdom; Lynch; The New Penguin History of Scotland; Pittock's New History of Scotland; Oram's Kings and Queens of Scotland. And no doubt many others. Depending on how long this takes, the New Edinburgh History of Scotland and the Shorter Edinburgh History of Scotland might need adding to the list. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the English language Wikipedia, not the Scots Gaelic Wikipedia. We use English language versions of names. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Erm ... Cináed is one English language version of his name, and Cináed is not Scots Gaelic. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 03:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Article naming

Let's begin by stating the blindingly obvious. Cináed is not the subject's name in Scots or Irish Gaelic as something as easy as clicking the interwiki links would have confirmed. To summarise, some possible names for this article per the various policies which might be applied are:

• Kenneth IV of the Picts (chronologically the 4th Pictish king on WP whose name might be anglicised as Kenneth)
• Kenneth of the Picts (but none of the other articles actually use Kenneth, so ...)
• Cináed of the Picts (or Cináed either)
• Kenneth mac Alpín (fairly obvious if ugly)
• Cináed mac Ailpín (perhaps not so obvious, but consistent with usage elsewhere on WP)
• Kenneth MacAlpin (probably misleading as MacAlpin looks like a surname, which it isn't)
• Kenneth I of Scotland (except that he didn't rule Scotland and this isn't a common way to refer to him)

As you might like to know how other rulers from the same time and area are handled:

• Contemporary "High Kings of Ireland": Niall Caille mac Áeda, Máel Sechnaill mac Maíl Ruanaid plus Feidlimid mac Crimthainn
• Contemporary Welsh kings: Cyngen ap Cadell, Merfyn Frych ap Gwriad, Rhodri the Great i.a.

Before weighing with an opinion, keep in mind that any decision you make will need to encompass his brother and sons; whether Giric and "Donald II" should be treated as per the subject, or as below, is an interesting question. Although I'd be happy enough to put them in the following category, it appears that the present orthodoxy would make "Constantine II" the first king of something-other-than-the-Picts.

While considering the above, you may like to consider that "X of Scotland" is equally tendentious for all monarchs until some arbitrarily determined point in the 11th or 12th century (the accession of Edgar is plausible dividing line and less arbitrary than most). Naming policy tells us that rulers of "peoples" rather than countries "... should be "of the Goths", etc" (exception 3). Taking the subjects most famous grandson (possibilities for <name> include Constantine, Custantin, Causantín, Caustantín), the options might be:

• <name> II of Scotland (but he didn't rule Scotland, reliable sources say so)
• <name> mac Áeda (as Cináed mac Ailpín)
• <name> II of the Scots ("of peoples")
• <name> II of Alba (the name of the place he ruled)
• <name> son of Áed (more English than mac Áeda)
• <name> son of Hugh (even more English)

As you might like to know how other rulers from the same time and area are handled:

• Contemporary "High Kings of Ireland": Flann Sinna, Niall Glúndub and the unwritten Donnchad Donn mac Flainn
• Contemporary Welsh kings: Idwal Foel, Cadell ap Rhodri and Hywel Dda i.a.
• Contemporary rulers of England: Edward the Elder, Ethelweard, Athelstan of England, Edmund I of England
• Contemporary rulers of York: Olaf III Guthfrithson, Olaf Cuaran and Eric I of Norway (Eric Bloodaxe surely) i.a.

Please feel free to add to the above options. Given the the default case of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) appears not to apply, if you are going to argue that it does, please explain why you believe that point 1 ("of modern countries") does apply and why exclusions 3 and 4 do not. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with your argument that because Kenneth did not rule over a modern country, the rule regarding English first names most commonly used is somehow voided. The policy does not state that 'if the monarch is the ruler of a country which no longer exists, less well known scholarly forms of their first name may be used'. The general rule of most common English name still applies. This is true for exceptions 3 and 4 as well. As for the second part, I'm fine with Mac Alpin, MacAlpin, I of Scotland or of the Picts. --Nydas 15:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Although the numbering of Scottish kings is wrong, dating kings from Cináed mac Ailpín is standard even among scholars who know it's flawed. I'm happy for the article to be left at Cináed I of Scotland. No Kenneth I I'm afraid. Although some users want to make wikipedia the standard of encarta, the wiki article is scholarly. Most of the "well known" English forms are redirects, so there's really no problem. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Name as it appears in encyclopedias

In these cases, I usually find it useful to look at how other major English-language reference works refer to the individual in question. Based on a quick check of Britannica and Columbia though, it's pretty clear what "most common usage" is. If anyone has access to other major reference works, please feel free to expand the below list. --Elonka 23:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedias

• Cinaed mac Alpin, Blackwell Encyclopaedia of Anglo-Saxon England, p. 366 [8]
• Cináed mac Alpín Who's Who In British History
• Kenneth I - Encyclopedia Britannica Online [9]
• Kenneth I - Columbia Encyclopedia [10]

Both of those articles are about 20 years out of date, and frankly childish in content, though the Britannica is mildy better than the Columbia. You'd think Britannica would have the money to get proper articles done. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

• Kenneth I - MSN Encarta [11]
• Kenneth I or Kenneth MacAlpin - 2003 Webster's Desk Encyclopedia
• Kenneth I - 1975 Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedia
• Kenneth I MacAlpin (1979 hardcopy Encyclopedia Britannica)
• Kenneth I MacAlpine - 2004 Oxford Concise Encyclopedia
• Kenneth mac Alpin (Cinaed mac Ailpín), Oxford Companion to Scottish History, pp. 92, 359
• Kenneth I - The Encyclopedia of World History, 2001
• Kenneth Mac Alpine - Catholic Encyclopedia. Caveat: There is no evidence that this reference has been updated since 1912, so it may have the same currency as "far Cathay". --SigPig

Dictionaries

• It's Kenneth I in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, as well, but you'll have to take my word for it. john k 23:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Surely the ODNB is more of an Encyclopedia than it is a dictionary. john k 00:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I have no objection to you moving it there, but the title does say "dictionary". Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
• Cináed mac Alpín is the main entry in Oxford Dictionary of Celtic Mythology p. 89. (Entries are somewhere between dictionary- and encyclopedia-length, and cover a bit of history as well as mythology.) Kenneth MacAlpin on p.282 simply has "Anglicization of Cináed mac Alpín." Kathryn NicDhàna 17:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Other reference works

• Kenneth mac Alpin. Ross, Martha (1977). Rulers and Governments of the World, Vol 1 - Earliest Times to 1491. London and New York: Bowker. ISBN 0859350517 --SigPig 19:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Taken from the entry "Scotland" in the indicated work. The initial subentry is "Kings of the Picts", footnoted (partially) as follows:

The names appear in some lists in Gaelicized forms, in others in forms which are pictish but often corrupt. The best known forms are used here, with alternatives in parentheses. Brude, Drust and Nechtan are Gaelic forms, the Pictish being Bred or Bredei, Drest and Naiton. (Ross, 1977, p. 486)

This may explain the inconsistency of the naming conventions in this book: K mac A is listed as "Kenneth mac Alpin" under "Kings of the Picts" (ibid., p. 486), "Kings of Dalriada (Dál Riata)" (ibid., p. 490), and "Kings of (the Picts and) Scots" (ibid., p. 491). However, K's immediate successor as King of the Picts (before K was named "King of (the Picts and) Scots") is listed as "Kenneth (or Cinead), son of Ferat", the latter listed as "Ferat (or Uurad)" (ibid., p. 487).

This was not added to further muddy the waters, but to indicate that although "Kenneth" was used in the book, the text seems ambivalent about which form to use in any particular case, perhaps using "Kenneth" because it is "best known". --SigPig 19:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent non-specialist histories

The list shows the form at the first mention in the text and at subsequent ones where applicable. This excludes academic works, course texts and the like.

• Cinaed (Kenneth) I. mac Alpin - Harvie, Scotland:A Short History. (Oxford UP, 2002)
• Kenneth mac Alpín (Cináed mac Ailpín), known as Kenneth I then Kenneth mac Alpin - Magnusson, Scotland: The Story of a Nation. (HarperCollins, 2000)
• Cinaed son of Alpín (Kenneth mac Alpin) then Cinaed - Wormald (ed.), Scotland: A History. (Oxford UP, 2005)
• Cinaed mac Ailpín then Cinaed - Driscoll, Alba: The Gaelic Kingdom of Scotland, AD 800–1124. (Birlinn for Historic Scotland, 2002)
• Cinaed mac Ailpín (Kenneth son of Alpin) then Cinaed - Foster, Picts, Gaels and Scots: Early Historic Scotland. (Batsford for Historic Scotland, 2nd edition, 2004)

Similar works omitted because they were not available include:

• Houston & Knox, New Penguin History of Scotland (Penguin, 2002)
• Watson, Scotland: A History, 8000 BC-AD 2000 (Tempus, 2002)

Please add to this list. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

We are following the wrong procedure here

On Wikipedia, where a user unilaterally moves a page from a consensus name to a new name without going through requested moves, precedent shows that we go back to the original name, on the basis that the original move was invalid, and then the original mover has to formally request the move to the new name he wants.

That should be what is happening here. It is patently absurd for one user to do mass unilateral moves, and then for the onus on those proposing to undo the unilateral moves to reach a consensus number to bring about a change. That is not how WP works. The pages should have been moved automatically back to the original locations. No vote is needed for that. (Some users have talked about a bot to do such moves. The sooner that bot is up and running the better so we can stop these messy unilateral changes.) Right now, as the vote is taking place, the presumption is that they will be moved back to the location required by the Most Common Name rule and by the Naming Conventions unless a 65%+ majority vote to block (i.e., there is a consensus to use the names the pages were unilaterally moved to).

We really have got to stop being so tolerant of users who highjack articles, move them around contrary to the MoS, the NC and agreed procedures, and then set up votes where those seeking to undo their unilateral behaviour have to deliver the mid 60s in support to undo it. That is patent rubbish. The bottom line on WP is what is laid out in the Manual of Style and the Naming Conventions. If a page should be allowed to deviate from them at all (and that is questionable) the onus must on those insisting the page break the MoS and the NC to show an overwhelming consensus for the move, not to unilaterally move the page and then insist that those opposing what they did must deliver a consensus to follow the MoS and NC. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well said, and I am in complete agreement. However, Deb tried to move a few of the articles [12], and Calgacus just dragged them back to the non-consensus names [13]. As for the others, the redirects had already been edited, which prevented non-admins from effecting the moves, meaning that the only option really available for non-admins, is to go through WP:RM, or raise a fuss on WP:ANI or get admin attention in some other way. For now, I've gone ahead and moved the "Malcolm # of Scotland" articles back to English names. If you (or one of the other admins reviewing this discussion) would like to take care of the rest of the moves, we can get back on course. --Elonka 01:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia should not be run on how self-righteous certain users feel, but I've said enough about such tiresome pontifications of Holy WP Guideline Law. However, calling a name opposed by so many users "consensus" ... is like calling the nuking of Nagasaki an "agreement"; the one thing that is clear is that there is no consensus. Anyways, those pages have been where they are for nearly a month, and no-one has explained to me where the holiness of the "first name" is supposed to derive from. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 02:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

sorry to rain on your parade, but wikipedia has rules that have been agreed upon by a majority of users. The purpose of those rules is to keep civility and avoid anarchy. In other words, to keep everyone on the same page and avoid edit wars. So what if for the last month no one challenged your unilateral move. the pages were where they were for years, and, yes, Calgacus, your moves are being challenged. Basically, you vandalised several pages and we are trying to fix them. If you really think that Kenneth is the wrong title, then you should have done a proper request move, not just moved it. Masterhatch 02:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I "vandalised" several pages? O my goodness. If you aspire to be on a high-horse as a wikipedia "lawyer", then why not check out Wikipedia:Vandalism for a definition of actual vandalism. Anyways, my move seemed unlikely to provoke opposition at the time, and there is nothing that compels any user to hold a mass vote everytime he or she makes a major edit. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 02:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Whatever one may think of Calgacus's moves (and I agree that it was inappropriate to move them without doing an RM, as they were quite likely to prove contentious, and have indeed done so), they were certainly nowhere near comprising vandalism. They were done in good faith, out of a desire to improve the encyclopedia. Claims like "vandalism" should only be made when, well, something like vandalism has occurred. john k 03:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Mass changes are supposed to be done through proper process. Users who have continually engaged in mass moving of pages despite appeals to stop have been blocked from editing the site. I have now returned the pages to the original location. We should now restart the vote and follow standard procedures by voting to move the pages from their locations as required by the Manual of Style and Naming Conventions to new locations, rather than, as was happening here, voting to put them back to the MoS/NC required locations. And calgacus the next time you decide to do a mass renaming of articles on WP . . . don't! If you do you are likely to be blocked from editing this site by any admin that finds it happening. Because of the scale of users engaging in mass moving of pages, leaving chaos all over the place and ignoring Wikipedia rules, admins have been getting much stricter of late and do block users who ignore appeals to stop and just keep moving pages according to their own personal whims. We have the requested moves procedures to co-ordinate moves and to stop major problems happening with broken links, as well as widespread breaking of consensus-based rules laid out in the Manual of Style and the Naming Conventions. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 03:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jtdirl, there's no way these moves could be considered even close to a "blocking offence"; any admin who seriously thinks so shouldn't be an admin. Anyways, I've moved loads of articles in my time on wiki, and only this set of moves and one other single move (last January I think) provoked this kind of opposition. In both cases it was a case of me seriously misjudging. In this case, these articles are very little edited and no one would have objected if one or two Scottish monarchs didn't have such a high-profile. I still don't understand why the first creation page has so much authority; I'm not being puzzled by this for purely argumentative effect; I would like to know why. As for opening another vote - you gotta be kidding. Though I certainly don't think you should have closed this vote before the 5 days was up, I'm glad - nay grateful - that it's over. I've got other things I wanna be doing with my valuable time. There are still great problems with the naming of early Scottish monarchs, which has been obscured somewhat among all this. Maybe in a few months an acceptable set of names can be presented. Archive anyone? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 03:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

As I participated in the vote I cannot close it. As to blocking, yes, people who engage in large scale moving around contrary to the agreed MoS and NC positions are regularly blocked if they don't stop when asked to. (Sometimes it is only a block that gets through to them that they cannot move articles all over the place.) Moving has become a widespread problem on WP, with links broken, nutty names used, POV-pushing, etc. There has been talk of removing the move option altogether from non-admins because, as I discovered lately when trying to find one article on a royal topic, people are regularly balsing up the moves. One page was moved repeatedly by one user. He left 11 redirect pages that pointed to each other. So when you went to one, you were sent to another, that sent you to another. The article was lost in the mess. All people kept experiencing was going around in redirect circles. (It took an hour to clean up that mess.) When that user, despite appeals from hoards of users to stop, refused to and kept making a mess all over he was blocked for 24 hours. He came back and kept moving stuff and was blocked for three days. He came back again and went on a complete orgy of redirects. He is now blocked indefinitely. It took five users working flat out for hours to undo the damage he did in his final orgy of moving. That was the point where a discussion occurred with some of the computer guys in which a number of users asked for the move option to be removed completely from non-admins.

I don't regard your moves as vandalism, but I do regard them as creating a mess. Any encyclopaedia has to operate on the basis of a co-ordinated set of rules and structures. Every encyclopaedia on earth has its own Manual of Style which decides fundamental rules on language usage, etc. Names of articles are laid out in Naming Conventions. If everyone did what they wanted, Wikipedia would descend into an unreadable mess. (Wikipedia's royalty articles when I came here first 4 years ago were a laughing stock, with no consistency, no accuracy, just personal whims. Users like John Kenney, Deb, myself and a couple of others put a lot of work into trying to pull together a broad set of workable rules that could keep the topic co-ordinated. One basic rule on WP in the Manual of Style is the Most Common Name principle. It does not mean that an article title must be in English. It means simply that it must be at the name most English speakers will recognise. If it turns out they mainly know a native name, excellent. But if they only know a translation, then under the Manual of Style that is where the article has to be. But name usage worldwide is evolving. If in 10 years time Scottish monarchs are known by Scottish gaelic titles then the articles would have to use those titles. Equally, if now they are known by English language translations, then under the MoS rules that it the version that must be used. It does mean that there is not always consistency. (People for example know earlier Prussian monarchs by English versions of their names, but the last Kaiser as Wilhelm. But it does mean that when people open a page they will instantly know who it is about. A classic example occurred in a page on a mediaeval Irish monarch, where an Irish speaker put the monarch under not merely a very long version of their name, in Irish, but used an old Irish spelling. Irish users found themselves looking at the article and wondering "who the fuck is that about?" None of us recognised it. The reality is that 99.99% of people know him by the Anglicised version of his name. So putting the name in in old Irish was pointless. The article ended up being moved to the recognisable version of his name, with the old Irish version then being mentioned in the article.

So please don't move articles around unilaterally. You may not realise that it causes a problem, but it can cause a major one sometimes. It may make a mess of the Naming Conventions, conflict with the Manual of Style and be in a form that only an absolute specialist would recognise. Specialist original translations belong in the text where they can be explained, not in the article title where they can not be. So please, unless it is just a very minor change like a spelling error, use the normal procedure. That way, if there is an MoS or NC problem, someone else will be able to tell you. And big rows like the sort here can be avoided. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 04:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Since it didn't seem to make any sense to keep the poll open since all of the articles have been moved back to original names, I went ahead and closed it. We should probably archive this entire page and start fresh, too. Thanks to everyone that's been helping with the administrative details of getting things sorted out. --Elonka 04:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I can agree with that. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 04:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I remember a user like that, Jrdirl, whom I ran into on several occassions. The situation with this set of moves isn't slightly comparable though, as I fix redirects and don't repeatedly move when I know I shouldn't. I even helped with the redirects. I take your point about exercising caution; though you can be sure that the thought of going through something like this is much more off-putting than being blocked for 12 hours or a day. Anyways, I've heard all the MoS and Most Common Name stuff I care to hear, and I've already said what I have to say. In practice, wiki works by weight of numbers voting for their own view on any particular or general issue, be it the small number of wikipedians who participated in this article, or the small number of wikipedians who participate in forming the conventions, with the occassional confident admin putting even more weight on one side or the other. The mere fact that lots of wikipedian power is behind the Use English policy isn't going to stop those who prefer native names preferring native names, and such like. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 04:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, it is clear that you do fix redirects, etc (and did so tonight) so I said before, and I will repeat it, your edits were in no way vandalism. As to "Use English" – that isn't policy. Policy is "use the form English users will recognise", which is completely different. For example English speakers use Taoiseach as much as its translation when referring to the Irish Prime Minister, so the article goes it as Taoiseach, not Irish PM. But they use President of Ireland, not Uachtaráin, so the article goes in as the former, not the latter. (Actually, damn all people use the latter, not even the President anymore!) They use Wilhelm II so that is used. But they also call the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V so that, not a translation, is used. If tomorrow, next week or next month people began to use the Gaelic versions of Scottish monarchical names the articles would be moved automatically under the MCN rule to the Gaelic versions. However at present they don't. People use the English version, so the article goes there. It is simply a case of what do people use. If they called Scottish monarchs in Latin version of their names, they would go in as Latin. Or Russian. An example is the last active Russian Tsar. His name in Russia was Nicolai. But he is known to English speakers as Nicholas. So as this is English WP it goes in as Nicholas. But English speakers know the former Soviet president as Mikhail Gorbachev, not Michael Gorbachev, so the Russian name goes in. It is purely a case of usage, never ever a "Use English" policy. I hope that clears that up. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 05:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, jtd, to shake thinks up a bit, Kaiser Bill is now at William II, German Emperor. I voted against this, but was overruled. I'd say the primary consideration was to make his name consistent with those of his father and grandfather, who are most commonly known by their anglicized forms. But, I will add, usage of "William" for the Kaiser is fairly common, nonetheless - I'd say overall usage is fairly evenly split between the two, although specialist literature tends towards Wilhelm. john k 12:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

For an example of monarchs who aren't known by their English name, see Carol I of Romania and Pedro II of Brazil, among others. john k 12:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Also Franz Joseph I of Austria. john k 12:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)