Talk:Kendo/Archive 1

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Kumdo (Korean Kendo)

Kumdo is the Korean pronuctiation of kendo. Although Korea now has there own organizations. Such as the World Kumdo Assc., & the Korea Kumdo Assc. There are very few differances between the two arts. Kumdo does not do sankyo before sparring, & some Koreans have made slight changes to the hakama. Both arts compete in the same tournaments in which you will see that kumdo pratictioners do sankyo in kendo tournaments out of respect. The problems between kendo & kumdo are unfounded, for they are basicly one in the same. There are some Koreans that give a false history of kumdo, but that should not reflect all practictioners of the art. Kumdo obviously came from kendo during the Japanese occupation of Korea. Rather swordsmanship origially came from Korea to Japan ~1000 yrs ago is erelavent because there is no solid proof either way.

Why is this here? If people want to learn about kumdo they can just directly go to the kumdo article. Eugenius 02:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, but apparently the original talk page has been deleted and the links that people had posted for discussion have been removed. There was some discussion about addressing the kendo/kumdo controversy. If I remember correctly, somebody had referenced this article (http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/web/korea/index.php) as a starting point for writing up a section on the kendo/kumdo controversy. --Gar2chan 16:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I really find the debate pointless. Eugenius 02:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Table

I put in a table., Can someone please check for the Kana, Romaji, and other Japanese spellings? Much obliged.--Nightryder84 04:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. Checked the Romaji and fixed only one, as well as quickly looking over the whole article. Maybe sometime later, important terms could also be listed in Kanji as well. ---Gar2chan 12:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


Grading

9 and 10 dan are no-longer given out. The highest grade anyone can now attain is 8dan.

This is incorrect, see the kendo page for an explanation.

Here's a quote from http://www.kendo-usa.org/rank.htm that explains why one might think that 8-dan is the highest given. (As this isn't in the public domain, please don't move it to the main page.) -- DImfeld 07:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Currently there are no 10 dan in kendo. It is doubtful there will ever be another. Even the attainment of 9 dan now seems remotely possible. Only 1 percent of applicants pass the 8 dan test.
There is a common perception that 9+10 dan are no longer available, it's just there haven't been any awarded lately. Two things to consider are; provision for 9+10 dan are still in the IKF Grading Rules and in the draft of the rules to be reviewed in December 2006 at the IKF meeting; and recently the AJKF offered a distinguished sensei 9th dan. The outcome of the offer is another matter. So, the current dan exam rules provide for those levels and recent practice shows that there are still possibilities for advancement to 9 dan.

Kendo in Canada

Kendo appears to have a large following in Canada, and is growing. Most clubs are usually apart of Universities, and there are a small handful of individual clubs outside universities in Ontario. I am unsure as to the number of seperate clubs that are established, but I do know that they are slowly growing in number.

The largest club in Canada is most likely from the University of Toronto, and they hold regular tournaments each year between the various clubs in Ontario with at least 200 people attending each year. I can obtain clarification and better details on these points shortly.

The Canadian Kendo Federation oversees all Canadian Kendo clubs and tournaments, and their website can be found at (http://kendo-canada.com/)

--DaisukeNiwa 17:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Kata List

Does anyone think it's a good idea to list each of the 10 kata with a short description of what each one is? I'm very new to Kendo so I don't know if this is a more complicated issue than I think or if there are other reasons not to, but it seems like more detail in this section might be nice. Comments? -- DImfeld 23:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That might be a good idea to help flesh out the article. If enough information can be gathered, I'm sure actually a pretty interesting article can be written about the evolution of the modern kendo kata. On YouTube, there's some videos of pre-war kendo kata...
http://www.youtube.com/results?search=pre-war+kendo+kata
Interesting stuff. --Gar2chan 07:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Looked over the pre-war Kendo kata. At the level of Shodan or Nidan, there's only really a few differences (most notably being pace, which is based on level, and a few steps; Sanbonme, Kodachi Sanbonme). There's no real evolution except for a little bit of editing, the scenarios are the same, the reactions are the same, etc...etc...
If you guys want it, I can write a brief summary of the kata. The only problem is that I'm horrendously unfamiliar with WikiCode. If I put it into its own section and gave some pointers on how to format it, would someone be willing to put it all in a table or some sort of thing? Kishyotai 11:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Kendō vs Kendo

I just noticed that the article uses "kendō" instead of "kendo" and wondered if it'd be better as a point of style to leave "kendō" in merely the pronounciation guide at the beginning of the article rather than repeat it over and over again in the article. The standard style of Romanization of Japanese tends to forego usage of the "ō" in spellings (see akido, judo, , kyudo, budo, or heck, even Tokyo). While I can appreciate the fact that the "ō" in "kendō" promotes a proper pronounciation of "剣道", I think it's simpler to leave it as kendo and if no one strongly objects, I'll change it back as such. --Gar2chan 09:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Correction made. --Gar2chan 15:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Kobayashi Hideo (Todai kendo)

There needs to be an article or section on Todai's kendo association. Chris 00:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Wrong Link

The Link of the German Kendo Federation is Wrong, Kendomonster.de is a a German Kendo League of the Berlin Kendo Club EDKG (Translated in English EDKG means:(First German Kendo Club) the offical Site of the German Kendo Federation is dkenb.de this is the Site of the German "Kendo Bund" which is the only Head Asociation of Kendo in Germany. So i changed the Link!

"enlightened"?

This is from the article: "Since that time, many warriors have become enlightened through kendo practice"

This, to me, sounds like a POV statement. I see no difference between the above statement and one where you state "over the years many people have communicated with God through prayer". In wikipedia it is not stated that Buddha DID achieve enlightenment or that Jesus IS the son of God. Wikipedia is merely stating what the individual religions believe, this article should also reflect this NPOV. I'm removing the statment in question. Unless of course I have misunderstood the usage of enlightenment in this article. Fred26 10:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this should be amended Kishyotai 11:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Similar problems with beginning of History section

Similarly to the above, the 'Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts' quote at the beginning of the history section strikes me as POV mumbo-jumbo. Why not karate, or anything else? How can any one specialized martial art really be said to embody the fighting arts of an entire culture? If nobody objects, I'm going to remove that fairly soon. -Toptomcat 01:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

No argument from me. To be precise on why: Some believe koryu-kata is the essence of Japanese fighting arts. So there are obviously people who disagrees with the "'Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts'". There are prolly other arguments as well. Fred26 09:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Fair comment, but I disagree, kendo players continue to become enlightened through the rigours of difficult practice and study. Particularly some of the metaphysical concepts of kendo and bushido in general. It may be a POV, but it is a POV of kendo players, so does belong in this article. Karate is mentioned above, but it, nor any other art is excluded from the possibility of enlightenment. This article though, is about kendo. Therefore I have reinstated the enlightened statement. Similarly the embodied statement has been reinstated. Chardy
I can only speak for the "enlightenment"-stuff. Again: There is no difference in claiming "he/she achieved enlightenment" and claiming "he/she ascended into heaven". The proper thing to do in this case would be to proclaim, (just as a crude example), "Many kendo-practitioners claim to have achieved enlightenment throughout the years...". If you insert the removed statement: "many kendo-practitioners have achieved enlightenment" (or however it was put), then it will not be a NPOV statement with regards to religion and it will be removed again.
This whole "'Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts'" still sounds like a POV to me but not as tangible a POV-statement as the "enlightenment"-part. I'll ask a few budo-friends what they think. Fred26 05:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you, Fred. The statement needs to be qualified with something like, "Many historians of Japanese budo claim that kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts", and then, that statement should be referenced to a reliable article/source that supports that claim. If there's no good reference at the moment to be found, I believe that it should be removed under Wiki standards to maintain NPOV and a professional encyclopedia-style tone. --Gar2chan 08:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Enlightenment; embodies and essence. Three "e" words!
The online Oxford has: Embody : ... to embody one's ideas in a treatise. Essence : The constituent elementary notions which constitute a complex notion, and must be enumerated to define it; sometimes called the nominal essence. Enlightenment : ... or the state of being enlightened or instructed. Treatise : A written composition on a particular subject, in which its principles are discussed or explained; a tract.
I argue and ask you to consider the above and that the use of the word "embodies" and "essence" are appropriate in the context of the learning or enlightenment required to do kendo well. I also acknowledge that words may have differing meanings in different contexts, take "essence" as an example and that a minor edit may benefit the entry.
Fred, you suggest that you'll ask some "budo friends" for their opinion. Will they include kendo players? We all are probably aware that perspectives may differ depending on ones own experience. Even though I have met and trained with the former son in law of "O-sensei" and some of his students, I would not dream of expressing an opinion about aikido.Kendo 66 12:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Well its true, enlightenment has many meanings, but since this article put this text: "In this period kendo developed under the strong influence of Zen Buddhism. The samurai could equate the disregard for his own life in the heat of battle, which was considered necessary for victory in individual combat, to the Buddhist concept of the illusory nature of the distinction between life and death." right before the "many kendo practitioners have achieved enlightenment", I naturally assumed they are talking about the religious concept of enlightenment which of course is still POV. If we are strictly speaking of the more non-religious version of "enlightenment", I would personally not choose the word "enlightened" over the word "instructed".
As for the "budo-friends" they are located at the www.ebudo.com/forums. Namely this topic http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=422825. The reason I asked for their help is because as you hinted: I'm not a kendoka and might not be well-versed with what kendo is. But I do know, mostly anyways, what wikipedia is and what wikipedia strives for. There are kendoka at the forum which have given their input, I would apreciate your input there as well. 81.216.27.2 13:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I await an ebudo moderator to allow me to view the forum, but no offence, I probably won't bother with ebudo. In the meantime, I think the author of the words that we are debating may be known to many budoka for his translation of Musashis 5 rings book. I am quite happy that his knowledge from extensive research and his kendo experience is credential enough for the choice of words that we are debating and is "above" the POV problem, therefore is a reliable source.
Try performing a search, using key words like "embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts"
I don't interpret the "essence" claim as being exclusive to kendo. Just that if one studies kendo properly, then enlightenment may be gained. The same may happen by studying other subjects as well.Kendo 66 03:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Tbere is a problem in the base assumptions being made here. The consensus is that the statement is POV, but because it is a POV that all kendoka share, it is acceptable. That is untrue. Do we edit the Church of Scientology page from the perspective of a Scientologist, the Republican Party page from the perspective of a Republican? Should we? It would seem self-evident that the answer is no. Similarly, editing our article on kendo exclusively from the perspective of kendoka, to the point of preserving an admittedly POV statement because it is consensus among them, is also flawed. -Toptomcat 03:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Would you be happy to replace "Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts." with "It has been said that Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts." ? Kendo 66 02:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Not really. See Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words for a concise explanation about why that sort of thing is discouraged. -Toptomcat 02:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Toptomcat. If you write the sentence "It has been said that Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts" it's nebulous as to who has actually "said" it. Things need to be properly referenced in order to adhere to Wikipedia standards. Oh, and for the record... I'm a kendoka. I'm been a student (on and off) for over 13 years, and yes, I'm against the use of POV statements that might hurt this article from reaching a higher standard.  ;) --Gar2chan 07:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Gar2chan, you wrote "...it's nebulous as to who has actually "said.." it" but earlier you suggested "The statement needs to be qualified with something like, "'Many historians of Japanese budo claim that" surely that suggestion is also nebulous? Tomcat, what is your suggestion then? And do you all think that enlightenment can not be found by studying kendo?. Does kendo (amongst other martial arts) not have the essence of budo or embody the budo principles?Kendo 66 12:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I suggested adding that line, but -this is key- with references. We could add the "Many historians" line provided we had several links to articles by reputable historians of Japanese history writing something to the effect that "kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts". However, since we don't have any such links at the moment, I think the statement should be removed because it establishes a biased POV that is unnecessary for an informative article about the history and art of kendo. I think other Wiki-posters have noted that it implies a "status" above other Japanese budo arts. If no one else has a compelling reason to keep that statement, I think the general consensus of this discussion is to remove the line... apologies Kendo66. While I can sympathize what you're trying to communicate about kendo, I think there are more skillful and Wiki-compliant ways for us to write it into the article. --Gar2chan 09:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
My suggestion is to eliminate the line 'Kendo embodies the essence of the Japanese fighting arts' from the beginning of the history section as a biased statement. It implies unique status beyond that of other gendai budo, and this is simply untrue- karate, in particular, has equivilent or higher stature. The 'enlightenment' debate is beyond my meager Wiki-fu. -15:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't imply unique status to kendo IMO. The sentence just says that kendo has something that exists. That something may well be shared by other things as well.Kendo 66 08:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
It is, however, too subjective a statement to be truly encyclopedic. -Toptomcat 21:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I feel the "essence of martial arts" is becoming a bit too complex for me here so I'm gonna keep back and observe anymore debate on that issue. However, when it comes to the enlightenment-statement I think this debate is winding down to a continued "block" of the statement. However, before doing that I would like to state my own non-enyclopedia view on the matter, which I of course will not post in the Kendo-article. Please note this is not a rant or anything written with negativity in mind. I train japanese martial arts. To be specific, as can be seen in my profile, I train the koryu martial art of Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo. I do not train for the sake of physical training or for showing off my technical prowess, fun as that may be sometime ;). I DO train, however, for the sensation of the very deep concentration and awareness that you experience. This may be religious or biochemical or some form of psychological reaction. It might be a complete "fake" as in placebo or whatever, but to be honest I do not care which it is (if any), but it does mean I take concepts such as enlightenment and "awareness" seriously, and any (albeit non-proven) spiritual connections between the training and soul (if any) is something I do not disregard just because it's not scientific fact. I strive to cultivate this "awareness" and deep concentration in my training for personal reasons. At this stage in my training it is prolly the sole reason I keep coming back for more regardless of how tough it gets, stressed you become or how painful it is (physically). (thats not to diminish the value of good friendship and the physical excercise). Please note: When I say "awareness" and "deep concentration" I do not mean specifically the buddha view of enlightenment, but they are in the same category when it comes to scientific proof..That is to say very VERY difficult to prove if at all possible.
So when someone writes a book with talk of enlightenment I might personally be inclined to take it as fact. But! I do not feel that such talk should be stated as FACT in an encyclopedia-entry regardless of how much I might agree with it. Thats the only reason I object to the "enlightenment"-statement in question. Its nothing personal against any author that, for all intense and purposes, have actually achived enlightenment through kendo, or against any wiki-user suggesting the incorporation of his/hers text. Its simply a matter of upholding what I believe are sound principles (Neutral Point of View). Well I think that pretty much sums up my reasoning in this matter. Thanks for reading :) Fred26 18:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Modern Kendo Pictures?

The pictures under the Modern Kendo heading, while exciting and energetic don't show proper ki-ken-tai-ichi, as the person demonstrating is visibly in the air in a few of them, and has not stepped properly in any of them. Suggest deletion or replacement with pictures that are more demonstrative of proper technique? 70.64.7.224 07:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for adding more pictures as long as we comply with copyright issues... the current ones are OK, but I think that we can keep a look out for better photos in terms of size/res, quality of photography, and quality of kendo in the photo. In the current photo of tsuki, it looks like the kendoka is levitating in the air with both feet off the ground, which of course is a big no-no. Kendo is definitely something that can be explained more thoroughly with illustrations and photos rather than only text, so if anybody out there in Wiki-land has some good and relevant photos to post, I encourage you to put them up! :) --Gar2chan 15:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
That was the first thing i was going to point out, the photos really need to be replaced. I will try and source some 'better' ones cant promise the best = / Stpk4 22:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Kendo outside Japan picture=

The context for the first picture in the Kendo outside Japan may be incorrect. The 13th World Kendo Championship was held in Taipei, Taiwan. The picture refers to the 2006 World Fencing Championship in Turin, Italy. Unless this is actually affiliated with some fencing event that happened to include some kendoka as part of the event, something may be wrong with the context presented.--scout3801

That photo has been on the page since long before the WKC and was taken, I think at the World Fencing Championship, during a kendo demo.

Equipment section?

The intro to the article is starting to get a little long and the ending few sentences seem to me to distract from a clear, concise explanation of what kendo is. I think it'd be a good idea to move this following chunk of text to a brand-new section that discusses more in-depth the equipment used in kendo. Some wording / grammar also needs to be cleaned up in this too...

Kendo is practiced using "swords" made of split bamboo called shinai and extensive protective armour (bogu) is worn to protect specified target areas on the head and body. Kendoka also use bokuto (wooden swords) to practice set forms known as kata. The uniform worn under the bogu is called a kendogi and is usually indigo but sometimes black, consists of two parts: the upper robe looking piece is called a keikogi and the pants known as a hakama the pants are very wide legged are commonly mistaken for a long skirt. Kendo is done in bare feet.:

The other option to creating a new "equipment section" would be to maybe move that chunk of text to the "modern kendo" section, since the kendo equipment that kendoka use today has evolved from the art's early practice, both in terms of materials used to make the equipment, and the build of the equipment.

Anybody else have thoughts on the matter? --Gar2chan 16:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)