Talk:Kempler video

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This article was nominated for deletion on 8/22/2005. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 References! 2 VfD 3 Clarification 4 "much of the Israeli public"

[edit] References!

People keep removing my add references notice. The notice was designed to help this article by asking people to add reliable sources for the page. To see how references should be presented see A. E. J. Collins (or any other featured article.) Frankly, until it is properly referenced nobody is going to take this article seriously. A couple of websites and a single book is not good enough for an article that will generate so much controversy! --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 10:26, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

• JiFish: What "references" would you like? A "blessing" from a New York Times editorial or reporter for example? Or a book by Shimon Peres's biographer? Or maybe an official press release from the Israeli Knesset? Frankly, you are not making any sense because this is a known video that was shown on Israel's state-run TV and certainly and factually exists. What to make of it's contents is a whole other question/puzzle, but there is no need to freak out and run from it becuase it records the suspicious murder of a Prime Minister of Israel under murky circumstances. Stay calm and don't get panicky or fidgety. IZAK 10:40, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

• • Actually one of those references would be great. I'm not saying the video doesn't exist. I'm saying every claim made in the article must be backed up by a reference. And please don't accuse me of getting panicky. I don't give a damn about this subject; but I do give a damn that every Wikipedia article is properly sourced. If you are so confident that the article is up to scratch why not submit it for peer-review? Also please do not remove the attention tag again. If you are so confident that the article is complete and NPOV the expert will do it for you. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 10:48, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

• • • Fine, I give up. You obviously don't want this article to be as good as it could be. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 10:58, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • What "expert"? And what nonsense it is to say that every OBVIOUS fact needs to be "sourced". Can you say PRECISELY which phrase/s you think need to be sourced here, and list them please? What don't you get exactly? If you don't care about this subject, then why are sticking your nose into a subject you know nothing about? You make no logical sense. IZAK 11:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

It would be really nice if there were a hebrew article he:הוידאו של קמפלר or he:וידאו הקמפלר ("Kempler's video") or he:רוני קמפלר (Roni Kempler) etc. I assume that such an article would attract a greater number of knowledgable people. So far I found "Kempler" only mentioned once in the Hebrew Rabin conspiracy theories article. -- Aleph4 13:18, 25 August 2005 (UTC), corrected Aleph4 11:07, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Note: he.wikipedia spells it he:וידאו, not וידאיו. (vide'o, not videyo) I still cannot find the hebrew article. The hebrew article on Yigal Amir does not mention Kempler either. Possibly because Hebrew speakers are better informed and immediately delete it? -- Aleph4 11:07, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I tried putting up the kempler video as a link to Rabin murder, yitzhak rabin, Yigal amir, Rabin murder conspiracy and it would be taken down within a few minutes. I actually went to the wiki meeting in Tel Aviv and these people who took it down know what they were doing. Keep in mind that there was a group on english wiki that really wanted to take it down as well.הוידאיו של קמפלר would be the way to spell it in hebrew. Kempler video in hebrew can be Kempler film, Kempler cassette. My web guy is translating the article and will put it up on the site shortly, maybe tomorrow. At this point I am actually walking around with a sandwitch sign in Jerusalem saying "the killer are free", like Bruce Willis did in the movie, and below that the "Kempler video 10 minutes", then "there is a fourth person in the limo". below "www.YitzhakRabin.co.il". this should be international news very shortly. and alot of volunteers are coming forward so I just ordered alot more signs.Kempler video 6:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

gidonb and jayjg and another are real serious about having less people see Kempler video with the only plausible expanation... Really wierd. Just look at the video. what other explanation is there? Steve in Jerusalem Aug 29 130 pm

IP editors are showing up and trying to promote all sorts of conspiracies, including Wikipedia editor conspiracies, and using the exact same language as one-issue editor User:Kempler video. Really weird. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Please note that except for User:Kempler video there is also a User:Kempler Video with an upper-case V, pushing the same POV. Indeed weird. gidonb 17:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea what is going on in this article. Yigal Amir assassinated a prime minister and someone is out with videos saying that he didn't? That must piss him off. Anyways. Could anyone message me on what is going on?

Guy Montag 19:59, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

http://www.uni-konstanz.de/FuF/Philo/Geschichte/kursss99/winkler/yigal.GIF is picture of Yigal shooting right handed .. in video he shoots left handed. someone should should put picture on sight.the new technique is to insinuate that I am reverting others edits ,, it is just the gang of two..Kempler video 19:59, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok. Why is this relevent? Yigal Amir has both admitted assassinating Rabin and proudly stated that he would do so again if he had the chance. What is the purpose of this video, this picture and other theories related to the assassination?

Guy Montag 00:00, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Well well, Kemple video comes up with a 'picture of Yigal shooting right handed'. However if you look at it you will see that Yigal Amir does not shoot in that picture. Just another fable out of many. This is how urban legends are being build. gidonb 12:20, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

of course he does not shoot. It is the reconstruction of the murder during the trial in which Yigal and the whole court goes to the place of the crime. They snapped his picture and the photo shows Yigal shooting right handed. in the video Yigal pulls out the gun from his pocket with his right hand and shoots with his left. look at the video and you can see that the video was blurry at that time, the film was "cut up" to make the dude's arm very long. Ballistics said that Rabin was shot at "point blank range" so they gave the dude a very long left arm. Kempler video 19:59, 3 Sept 2005 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Guy Montag 00:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is ridiculous, look at the video, and the still photo from the reconstruction. What other explanation is there. But, Guy. If you don't care about the subject then go to a subject that you care about. Kempler video 19:59, 4 Sept 2005 (UTC)

This is like arguing with a Larauche supporter. There is no conspiracy. Yigal Amir assassinated Rabin because he disregarded his democratic mandate and position to not negotiate with the PLO, and then bribed Knesset members to pass the Oslo Accords. Dubiously valid videos about what hand was used, or undocumented phantoms that supposedly show a door close in a limo, which lead to more unwarranted theories are a waste of time. When Yigal Amir himself has said again and again that he assassinated Rabin, that he would do so again if he had the chance, that those people who spout unwarranted conspiracy theories anger him and in his eyes, demean his sacrifice, is enough to leave this ridiculous witch hunt alone. Anyways, you can hunt phantoms for your whole life, I don't care, but don't do it in this medium and don't attempt to phrase this article as though it is true.

Guy Montag 20:32, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Guy, are we looking at the same video. the video is valid and was shown on Israeli TV. You can hear the announcer. The announcer is actually a famous anchorman. Actually we have the video on the site from the interogation in which Yigal denies the murder. The whole lawyer file is there. So study the case if you want. Kempler video 22:32, 4 September 2005 (UTC) It should be noted that Jayjg initially tried to delete the page. Now the dude is so concerned with the quality of wiki he is editing the page...I would like to know the real reason why jayjg and gidonb are so interested in this subject. Kempler video 23:32, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps Mossad is behind it all; what do you think? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:38, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The Shabak (under Carmi Gillon), not the Mossad, takes a leading role in this theory. Mossad theories are rather favored by the anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists. You're not Shabak, are you Jay?! ;) HKT ^talk 20:55, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I see; so gidonb and I are in the pay of Shabak, then? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:59, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

In their pay? By your wiki-medals, I'd say you must control the Shabak from behind the scenes! In any event, I don't know whether you'd consider such an accusation as a personal attack. :/ HKT ^talk 21:37, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] VfD

Survived Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Kempler video. mikka (t) 20:49, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification

The article doesn't discuss the Shamgar Commission's conclusions about the video, nor does it mention Chamish's conclusions (and why they allegedly anger Amir). Additionally, the article should mention that this video and the conspiracy theories surrounding it have been hot topics for years in right-wing and independant Israeli news sources with extensive circulation, such as Makor Rishon (circulation ~190,000) (and that the video conspiracy discussion is certainly not solely, nor even primarily, Chamish's domain). HKT ^talk 16:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Hey HKT, I am glad that you are joining this battle with jayjg and gidonb. You cannot really reason with those who were unsuccessful at deleting, now they are just trying to delete the content of Kempler and delete the links. They take it real serious. please help in reverting the deletes if you want to help. The facts you have on the murder are ok. But I am living this and have alot more information. Last night I met the guy who has a lot more information than Barry or I currently have. It seems that the whole scene of the shooting is a "photo montage". You will notice that, if you can make out Yigal Amir's head, it is much smaller than Rabin's and other's heads. There is actually a newspaper photo of the murder that shows Yigal with short sideburns and a small head. We will put that on the site soon. In short, when Yigal went for the gun with his right arm, he probably got a cell phone call and everything afterwards is fake. Also it is www.rotter.net who is taking the lead in braking the censor on Rabin, not Makor Rishon. Kempler video ^talk 16:26, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I believe that the sideburns issue has been discussed years ago, so it's not new. If you want to add that as a bullet, feel free to do so. Nevertheless, your editing must be in-line with Wikipedia's guidelines, specifically the one about no original research. To clarify that policy: Wikipedia may consider information "original research," even if you know that the info to be true and obvious, when that info has not been confirmed by a source widely accepted as authoritative. In short, all information that you have about the video can only be presented as a claim, and can only be included if it has been gained notoriety somewhere. I don't know what the circulation is for Barry's books, but it might be significant enough to meet the standards of notoriety required to present his claims, even if they haven't been addressed elsewhere. You should know that I'm not joining a battle against the two editors you mention. I know from experience that they respect Wikipedia's policies, and they will not revert your changes if you follow the rules. While the rules aren't without their downsides, they are designed to diminish bias in Wikipedia articles. Whether the rules successfully accomplish that goal is a matter of opinion. However, the rules must be followed because if someone doesn't follow the rules, he can expect his edits to be reverted. HKT ^talk 17:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I can understand where you are coming from. I will leave you stuff up, I put a link the Barry Chamish article on Kempler video. He is probably more of an expert on the video than the person who wrote the wiki article. I am going to post my article on the web some where and then make a link to it from wiki... if and when they two guys delete I will be really wierd.. we will get back to the reverting on a daily basis. keep in mind that on related articles these guys are replacing the 10 minute video with a10 second CNN clip. As if to fool people into thinking the big deal about Kempler is only 10 seconds so there is no need to check out the Kempler article.Kempler video ^talk 17:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "much of the Israeli public"

David, if you don't want this reverted, you should find a poll (or some other source) that indicates that it is true. I recall reading about a poll taken a couple years ago that indicated that (at that time) around a third of the Israeli populace didn't believe the official story about the Rabin murder. I don't recall who took the poll, and I'll leave the research up to you. HKT ^talk 04:21, 13 September 2005 (UTC) excellent advice, the poll numbers are actually much greater than they were previously, the news source that is reporting Rabin murder is www.Rotter.net. They are conducting an online poll now. http://rotter.net/edit/text/seker.htm. There are currently

• 20.6% אני מאמין/ה believe official government report
• 5.3% רוב הגירסה - אמת believe most " "
• 8.5% חצי - חצי half half " :
• 13.5% רוב הגירסה - שקר official report mostly lies
• 52.2% לא מאמין/ה don't believe official report
• 4,739  :מספר המשיבים number of votes

04.08.2005 : poll started on August 4, 2005: one vote per ip address. The poll numbers will change drastically in the coming two months. Shimon Peres in his online political party newspaper called me (David Rutstein) and Barry Chamish "mental cases that should be institutionalized." Big mistake. I filed a police complaint. In Israel slander is a criminal offence but more importantly we are preparing a slander lawsuit that will force Shimon Peres to explain in court what he meant. The whole reason the poll numbers are 60-70% against the government version is the government and media policy of not reporting any doubts as to the official version of the Rabin murder. When Shimon Peres and others take the stand the whole country will have heard of the Kempler video and the other evidence and logic that proves beyond any doubt that the government version is nonsense. Kempler video ^talk 04:21, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Online polls are unscientific, and in any event not believing the government report doesn't mean one believes the Rutstein version. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Hey Jayjg, sorry I could not spend more time with you. But I am really making news here in Israel. I am attempting to break a censor that no one has succeeding in breaking for almost 10 years. I sort of figured out what media outlets are willing to break the censor. It is Rotter.net and a few others so I am supplying them with news. Sandwich signs that state that Shimon Peres gave the order to murder are really good photo shoots. The photos make the front page. I am sueing Shimon Peres for slander and Shimon is not sueing me. Really wierd. As well online polls are not so great. They, in fact are terrible. The official policy of the media is not to bring up any doubt on Rabin murder at all. So no public polling exists on any media source except www.rotter.net. Jayjg, all people who investigate Kempler video, Rabin murder, etc all come to the same conclusion. It may be the hebrew stuff that is not all translated but feel free to call me anytime. This may be a blanket statement but sometimes the blanket fits.

Kempler video ^(talk) 17:04, 21 September 2005 (UTC) Hey Gidon and Jayjg, good news, this story is being picked up by international media in the very near future. Shimon Peres called me a "sycko" "that should be institutionalized" so I filed a $50,000 slander lawsuit against Shimon. As well I put big headlines on all my sites that say "Shimon Peres ordered the murder of Yitzhak Rabin". these sites include yitzhakrabin.co.il, yigalamir.com, shimonperes.net, arielsharon.co.il and barrychamish.com (english) Hey guys you have to appreciate my sense of humor. If what I am claiming is false Shimon will sue me and I will look stupid and loose money. But if what I am saying is true.... oy va voy....G and J.. believe me, I am not happy to be correct.. but the preponderance of evidence is really overwhelming...--Kempler videoOctober 5 (cur) (last) 06:24, 12 October 2005 217.132.38.214 (deleted sentences about Chamish, yigal amir, yideot acharonot, yigalamir.com calls yigal Pedofile..based on Barry Chamish writing, response 40(english) when click yigal picture)