Talk:Keith McCready

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[edit] Looking for advice and suggestions

Please provide some advice and instructions on what I can do to improve this article so that it is written as an article suitable for the Wikipedia encyclopedia

RailbirdJAM 00:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I have added references and cleaned up the tone.

If there is any advice or suggestions, I would very much appreciate it.

It is my hope to contribute articles, references, and bios of MANY American Pool Players that are missing on Wikipedia. The Filipino and European pool players are better documented than the American pool players, and it is my desire to contribute to the American pool players category.

Thanks in advance to all! RailbirdJAM

I've left quite extensive cleanup notes in HTML comments in the article source (as well as done a fairly thorough overhaul; please check it to make sure I did not accidentally make any facts incorrect in the process). And thanks for the work on this article; he has been near the top (in the sense of most-needed, not where his name literally appears in the long list) of the WikiProject Cue sports wanted bios list. You may want to join this project. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the helpful clean-up. May I respectfully request for your consideration to change "incorrect form" to "unorthodox form" or "stroke" in the first section?
The "far-fetched anecdote" is actually true. The only reference/source I can find is the one I listed in reference section by Danny Deliberto in which he states it. Other than having Keith McCready make a video stating that this happened, is there another way to do so that you may know of? It is not possible to locate school records going back that far. He was attending Trident School in Anaheim, California, when the incident occurred.
I have a more expansive list of tournament wins for McCready for the Professional Section. However, I did not list them because I need to find the "reference" and/or "source" before I list them. May I list them without a reference and/or source?
Thanks in advance for all your excellent assistance.
RailbirdJAM 18:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
No problem.
"Incorrect" - just be bold and change it if you like. I put "incorrect" in "scare quotes", to indicate that it is a questionable but common assumption about fundamentals, but maybe I'm being too subtle here...
Anecdote - That you've found a source for it doesn't mean it is true at all, especially in a field as chock full of far-fetched tales as the world of pool hustling. My rough guesstimate is that that amount of money would come out to about $50,000 is 2007 greenbacks, and this really just isn't plausible, even in a "hustler mecca". I suspect that the figure has been multiplied by at least 10 in the telling and re-telling and re-re... Your source confirms that the anecdote exists and what it's details are, of course, which is why it's still in the article, but a book of hustler stories largely sourced from the hustlers themselves and their competitors is not a reliable source for the underlying factuality of the details of the anecdote.
The wins: It is better to find a source. Unless you pulled this list from your own personal memory, you must surely have a source for them. Even a Billiards Digest or whatever profile of him that provided such a list is a good enough source for the list.
— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I am reluctant to "be bold" since I am a Wikipedia newbie. I would rather depend on your guidance and expertise.
I do want to change the "far-fetched anecdote," though, to something else, but I do not know how to word it, so that it meets the encylopedia standards.
The incident with getting suspended did happen. I know Keith McCready well, and have had the chance to speak to Keith's older brother Mark, as well as two childhood friends that I met several years ago in Vegas. The US$14,000 is the right amount, as unusual as that may seem. This is why the gym teacher took Keith to the office, resulting in a suspension. Keith won the money gambling at the horsetrack and in the pool room the day before. He couldn't leave the monies at home because his two older brothers used to help themselves to Keith's gambling winnings when he was asleep, and Keith didn't want to leave an amount of monies this size in his school locker while he was in the gym class, fearing somebody might steal it. He asked his gym teacher to hold the monies for him for safe-keeping.
The school suspension was a major event in McCready's childhood and changed his life forever, which is why I think it is important to include it. His mother passed away from breast cancer when Keith was 9 years old. Keith was the youngest of three boys in the McCready family.
The school officials who suspended Keith immediately called in the authorities to investigate Keith's home life and saw that his father was an alcoholic and determined that his home was not a good environment for a young boy. The authorities removed Keith from his family home right after this incident, made him a ward of the State, and placed him in foster homes.
Eventually, the owner of Bob's Billiards in Anaheim, who knew Keith as a child and liked him, petitioned the court to adopt him, so that he could give Keith a home. This incident is a well-known Keithism, and it was written about in an InsidePOOL article about Keith. I will try to locate the date of the issue and post up the reference. The reporter who wrote the InsidePOOL article heard the story from Keith's mouth. Also, Danny Diliberto relays the story in one of the links referenced. Diliberto was in California during this time.
Keith being adopted may have never happened if he hadn't been suspended from school for having US$14,000 on his person, resulting in the authorities investigating his home life.
I will try to locate a reference in a pool magazine for Keith's tournament winnings before I list them. I have the 1975 through 1985 issues of National Billiards News, and this will take some time. I will also list the origin of the pictures. I really do appreciate your advice and excellent assistance. I want to follow the encylopedia rules, but am not familiar with how to go about it at times. RailbirdJAM 08:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to respectfully suggest a change of punctuation. Check out this as a reference source, for your consideration, as the rule for closing quotations: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_quote.html
RailbirdJAM 10:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like good material, really. I still suspect that the number is a bit apocryphal ($1,400 is a lot more plausible, and still would have shocked school authority figures). I'm a genealogist myself, so "his brother vouches for it" doesn't impress me; separating family fiction from fact is often very difficult. Anyway, my point was never "remove mention of the school story", just indicate that it isn't proven fact, just a sourced anecdote. Actually, if you remove "far-fetched", it's still labelled adequately with just "anecdote".
Punctuation: Wikipedia (like most of the world) does not follow the obsolete "commas inside quotes," typesetting convention. Even most scholarly and technical publications in the US have abandoned it (because it is illogical and introduces errors and falsehoods); it's last bastion is American newspapers. The current (15th) edition of the Chicago Manual of Style says either style is valid. But the Wikipedia:Manual of style calls for only the so-called British style: "Closing punctuation outside quotations", unless the closing punctuation was originally a part of the quoted material.
— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your helpful input. I do not know what I can do to reference the $14,000 to make it more plausible for you, other than create a short 2- or 3-minute video of Keith McCready telling the story himself. I did reference it with Diliberto stating that he was in California during this time period when the incident happened. I have access to McCready and can produce this video, if a video in his words would help to ensure the credibility of this incident. Would this suffice? Please advise.

I agree that sometimes, like fishing stories, tales on the road can be "far-fetched" over time, but this incident is exactly the way I have written it.

Like most hustling stories, they are not documented in the public domain, for obvious reasons. There are well-known Keith McCready hustling stories that I cannot write about, though many pool folk who were there and saw it in person know that they are true. Like when McCready -- in front of 100-plus witnesses in Las Vegas -- won $380,000, defeating a high-stakes gambler named Rosey from Detroit. The next month, he was broke. There is no way to reference this, but it happened. There are living pool players today who saw the match and can confirm it, but as far as something in writing from a newspaper, magazine, or a book (reference/source), this is impossible.

I would really like to start a Ronnie Allen article. He is most definitely part of the fabric that makes up American pool. Finding references and sources is going to be difficult, but it will be a challenge that I would like to tackle. I have Ronnie Allen's phone number and will try to get some material to work with. He has a great story, his childhood growing up in a carnival.

Also, I am currently trying to get in contact with Jimmy Mataya, so that I can obtain some more data, pictures, et cetera. Hopefully, Jimmy may have some materials that will be helpful in documenting and referencing his bio.

There are many American players from yesteryear who I think may be worthy of an article, like St. Louis Louie Roberts (great story there), Weenie Beanie (the late Dick Staton), the late Cornbread Red, just to name a few. These guys are American legendary pool players.

BTW, thank you for letting me know what the Wikipedia punctuation standards are. I am trying to learn, and you have been very helpful to me. ` RailbirdJAM 07:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree those players need articles. With regard to the McCready school story, again it isn't that it shouldn't be included (since it is sourced and of interest, it should be); it's that it should be labelled anecdotal, because there is no encylopedic proof, basically. If we had a copy of the school records that said "McCready, Keith: suspended for bringing $14,000 to campus" that would be a different matter, but even 50 testimonials from other husters and such wouldn't qualify as reliable sources for all of the details in the story, since the story ultimately leads back to McCready himself. The source quoted is reliable as to the fact that the anecdote exists in the subculture, and what it's details are, but it can't source the underlying truth of the anecdote, just as a matter of logic. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I am going to create a video of Keith McCready stating that this, in fact, did happen. I do not think that I can get any records from Trident School in Anaheim, but I will attempt to do so. I respectfully disagree that this is an anecdote. Keith McCready himself, IMHO, is a "reliable source," and as such, the words coming out of his mouth in a short video will be an addition to the article.

There is a Weenie Beenie Memorial Tournament occurring next month in Norfolk. I am going to try to attend in hopes that I can get some data. He is a legend in American pool and worthy of an article, IMHO.

RailbirdJAM 08:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't bother with the video. Again, what is unsourced is the factual absolute veracity of the details of anecdote, not that the anecdote exists nor that the details reported by the anecdote are what this article says they are; those issues are already covered by the extant sources. You won't get school records, since they don't give those out under US privacy laws. The point wasn't "go get school records", it was "this can't be labelled as anything but anecdotal, by its very nature". :-) McCready is not a reliable source for facts about him self. Please see WP:RS and WP:V, and more to this particular point WP:COI. McCready is not an independent source of information about himself. Imagine the chaos if every article about someone convicted or a criminal offense had to be rewritten so they they were innocent just because the subject of the article could be reliable sourced somewhere as having asserted their innocence, if you see where that leads... — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
That said, I'd argue for reinsertion of the anecdote, as it is sourced, it adds a lot of color, and as you say it seems to be quite important to his life-story. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Of course Staton is worthy of an article. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Cue sports/Wanted cue sports bios#Legends. He's listed there, as are many other great players without articles. Regarding the $14,000, since there is an existing source, why can't any dubiousness be taken care of by couching the sentence as "according to McCready..." or similar construction?--Fuhghettaboutit 13:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
That would do it. It simply can't be reported as verified fact, since the sources do not (and effectively cannot possibly) do so. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I edited the paragraph and hope it meets your approval. Let me know. RailbirdJAM 20:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the great suggestion. I was hoping that a video of Keith relaying the incident from his own mouth could take care of the dubious distinction. "According to McCready" may sound a little like hearsay.

I do want to contribute to the legends of cuesports. There is not a lot of references/sources in the American pool media about its legendary players, but anybody who played pool in America in the '60s through '80s knows about Ronnie Allen and Weenie Beenie, for example. Weenie Beenie is a really great story, too, his origin of having those hot dog stands throughout Northern Virginia and, of course, the gambling mecca on the East Coast in the '60s and '70s was Weenie Beenie's pool room, Jack and Jill's. Wikipedia is a great vehicle to preserve these pool legacies. It is quite exciting and involves some intensive work, but I am learning and hope to make worthy contributions as I get more experienced with the Wikipedia guidelines.

RailbirdJAM 15:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

"According to McCready" will simply be reporting the source; nothing wrong with that. It would be heresay if it said something like "According to Jim-Bob Smith, a bartender at McGee's Tavern in Tulsa, Oklahoma" (i.e. someone not in a position to have any plausible authoritativeness on the topic. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, there's so many that need articles. Christ, Luther Lassiter doesn't even have an article yet, though I have a half finished draft in the works. Ronnie Allen need an article of course, though sourcing that beyond bare facts may be difficult. Nick Varner doesn't have an article! There's much to do.--Fuhghettaboutit 17:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
There's many others that don't have articles and I didnt even bother listing at that wanted bio page I linked above because, for example, how would I ever source Gene Nagy? The guy could run 100 balls on the drop of a hat (and would burn himself with cigarettes when he missed). Taught Jeanette Lee, etc. Sources? Probably impossible to find.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Lassiter does have an article now, a basic but sourced stub by RailbirdJAM. As for Nagy, heck, add him anyway. You never know... I just about redlinked him at Lee's article, but had perhaps the same feeling you did. On second thought, I'd redlink him and add him to the list. I doubt either of us have subscribed to every pool publication in history without missing an issue (heck, RailbirdJAM has been citing two that I never knew existed!), and it strikes me as somewhat unlikely that of the at least seven national pool periodicals in the US at one time or another (3 appear to be extant), not counting web-based ones, no one has written at least a short article on him. PS: I think a lot of these conversations really belong at WP:CUETALK instead of Talk:Keith McCready. Our project-wide "lore" is already spread over too many talk pages... Oh, and RailbirdJAM I encourage you again to join that project. I get the feeling you're going to be a long-term, dedicated pool editor here, and that's were this stuff's being coordinated. Watchlisting the project page, its talk page and its to-do list are probably good ideas. Oh, and Keith McCready needs to be WP:DYK'd before its eligibility expires. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

As a Wikipedia newbie, I do not know how to contribute to WP:DYK. A suggestion, "Did you know Keith McCready was suspended from school for 'having too much money'?" RailbirdJAM 13:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I read the WP:DYK page, and it is my understanding that I can self-nominate the Keith McCready article, but I do not understand how to, even though I have read through the WP:DYK page several times. Would you be so kind as to advise how I can self-nominate? I do not want to do something that would be against the Wikipedia guidelines. Thanks in advance. RailbirdJAM 17:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Elegibility for DYK expired yesterday. The next time you write a decent length article that cites to sources (not a stub), drop me a message on my talk page and I'll write the DYK nomination. Elegibility for dyk is: 1) not a stub 2) cites sources 3) has been created in the past five days, or the text was expanded fivefold or more from a stub in the past five days. If accepted for DYK, the fact from the article will appear on the Main page in the did you know section.--Fuhghettaboutit 18:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why Removal of Keith McCready as AMERICAN SPORTSPEOPLE Category?

I noticed that Mike Selinker removed the AMERICAN SPORTSPEOPLE category on the bottom of the article. I inserted it back.

I do not understand why a professional cuesports player would not be included in this category.

Pocket billiards is a sport, and as such, I believe Keith McCready's name belongs there.

I tried to go onto Mike Selinker's TALK PAGE to ask why he thought it prudent to remove this category from this article, but every time I tried to post a question on Mike Selinker's TALK PAGE, in an effort to ask him his reasoning, it would automatically log me out of Wikipedia. There was no way I could ask him this question.

As such, I am posting my inquiry on this talk about of the article. Please advise. RailbirdJAM 19:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)